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Not all PSA 9 OC's are created equal
jrdolan
Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
The rule of thumb is that a PSA 9oc should not be worth more than a 7, and there are many collectors who would take the 7 without hesitation. But there are exceptions to the rule, as I was pleased to find out tonight. I finally sold my 1953 Topps Ed Mathews PSA 9oc, and I admit I really played up how close to NOT being off-center it was. Well, it sold for about $530, about 3x what a centered PSA 7 sold for the same night. In fact, it brought more than the PSA 8 value in SMR.
It didn't hurt that if it had been slightly better centered it would have been a $2500 card. I didn't say so in the auction; that would have been too Nomar-like. In fact, Nomar probably would have said he was robbed, called it PSA 10 in the title, and said it was worth the price of a new SUV.
So all PSA 9oc's are not created equal!
By the way, on the recent subject of it being common knowledge that SGC is a superior grading service .... I saw quite a few SGC vintage cards go for far less than PSA prices this weekend. I know, because I bought and sold some of them. Example: a sharp 1948 Scooter Rizzuto rookie SGC 84 that I bought for $300 from MajorDanby a year ago, sold tonight for about $100 less than SMR. I took a slight loss on it. No way a PSA 7 of that card goes for $100 less than SMR. If anyone remembers what the last one sold for, please post. Later this summer I'm selling a PSA 7 for a client / friend, so we'll see how it does.
So I think SGC is indeed an excellent grading service, but they do not fetch PSA money for postwar material, that I can see. In prewar, I grant they're pretty strong, but so is PSA. I think SGC is great for picking up cards you like on the cheap, with high-quality grading and a nice holder, but as far as eventual resale ...
It didn't hurt that if it had been slightly better centered it would have been a $2500 card. I didn't say so in the auction; that would have been too Nomar-like. In fact, Nomar probably would have said he was robbed, called it PSA 10 in the title, and said it was worth the price of a new SUV.
So all PSA 9oc's are not created equal!
By the way, on the recent subject of it being common knowledge that SGC is a superior grading service .... I saw quite a few SGC vintage cards go for far less than PSA prices this weekend. I know, because I bought and sold some of them. Example: a sharp 1948 Scooter Rizzuto rookie SGC 84 that I bought for $300 from MajorDanby a year ago, sold tonight for about $100 less than SMR. I took a slight loss on it. No way a PSA 7 of that card goes for $100 less than SMR. If anyone remembers what the last one sold for, please post. Later this summer I'm selling a PSA 7 for a client / friend, so we'll see how it does.
So I think SGC is indeed an excellent grading service, but they do not fetch PSA money for postwar material, that I can see. In prewar, I grant they're pretty strong, but so is PSA. I think SGC is great for picking up cards you like on the cheap, with high-quality grading and a nice holder, but as far as eventual resale ...
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i was tracking your rizzuto to see how much it would go. i predicted the last time you put it up that it would go for slightly higher than what i sold it to you for. not the case.
i think with sgc...it is hit or miss. i sold a SGC 84 yaz rookie a few weeks ago. I bought the card for $100 straight up. Sold it for $130.
I've seen SGC cards go for way below SMR. Once, i got sniped on a 54 mays sgc 84...sold for nearly a 1/3 off SMR.
And ive seen SGC cards go way above SMR. I was looking to acquire a drysdale rookie at a lower condition. I tracked a SGC 80 (PSA 6) drysdale rookie PERFECTLY centered. 50/50, if not then close to it. I sniped the card at PSA 6 SMR price. The card sold for about $125 above that.
I think youre right in saying that in selling post war stuff...PSA is the way to go. You simply make a larger percentage profit.
Steve
PS: I hope that you didn't take "gentleman" as an insult
<< as would be expected from a fine gentleman such as you >>
stevek, I couldn't agree more. Honest sellers like jrdolan and Broadway Rick make eBay a wonderful place.
In regards to PSA 9 OC's are not created equal, excellent point. Look at this one:
Yikes! Nearly MC to me.
MajorDanby, I agree SGC does sometimes perform well on postwar compared to PSA. But generally speaking, and without extensive data to back it up, my feeling is that it doesn't. Maybe because PSA cards outnumber SGC about 20-1 and few people even use "SGC" in their searches? I think you have to do a bit of keyword spamming to even stand a chance, as a seller of an SGC card. I think it's legitimate to state the PSA eqivalent, i.e. "SGC 80 = PSA 6." The numbers are against SGC, but as I said, they are a fine service. If I don't need the card in a PSA holder, or if the crossover makes financial sense, I'll buy an SGC card without a second thought.
Scooter looked so fine in that holder that I procrastinated for months -- and then PSA removed him from the Postwar HOF Rookies registry, making him an expendable luxury for me. Who knows, maybe he would have sold for more the first time I put him up (I got doinked by eBay for an expired credit card, dumping my auctions that week). Sure I lost $25, but it's better to think that I rented a fine Rizzuto rookie for a year at 7 cents a day!
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
Eyebone
<< <i>There is a potentially a huge difference between a 9oc and a 7, and that can come into play heavily in pricing. I never heard the rule of thumb that the values should be equivalent, though perhaps that's the perception owing to the registries valuation of qualifiers. >>
That's true, but many 9oc cards are hard-pressed to earn 7 money on eBay, because of the heavy emphasis on centering. How many collectors have you seen on these boards who have said "Give me a well-centered 7 any day!" Well, I think that really ought to depend on what card and the degree of OC on the 9. This one happened to be just barely OC. If it had been almost miscut like that Clemente above, no doubt the interest would have dropped off a cliff.
I dunno, maybe the buyer is hoping for PSA to go into a "lax" period and he'll get a straight 9 someday. That won't happen, because when PSA does award a stray 9 NQ where it doesn't belong, it ain't on no 1953 star card.
northshire-cards NARU'd
I'm sure it was just another "expired credit card".
SD
Nice card, and I think the way you listed it probably got more people to look at it than if you had just said PSA 9 OC. And if you had said PSA 9 without mentioning the OC, buyers would have been turned off- I know I hate when people do that. You were honest and at the same time showcasing the best qualities of the card. Great job.
Now why in the hell did you get NARU'd ya scammer? Just kidding. Probably a hijacker sending fake emails out to people requesting payment. Been happening a lot recently.
Lee
kuntryboy, you're a real class act.
<< <i>No, not a bad credit card >>
Duh!
<< <i>It has to do with this, perhaps my worst transaction on eBay. >>
<< <i>kuntryboy, you're a real class act. >>
Thanks! I haven't had 4 eBay accounts suspended for shill bidding. How about you?
Say it ain't so, JR.
T206's are always being bought.
aloof1003@comcast.net
i'll trust jrdolan way before i trust the unknown "Kuntryboy"..
Recently I cooperated with another party to knock up the bids in some of my auctions, and I returned the favor -- shilling. No dancing around it, that was wrong and sleazy and all the other words we use to describe shillers. I am contacting the winners in those auctions to apologize and offer refunds of 25% to 50%, depending how much they were shilled and regardless of whether the shilling had any real effect on the final bid. If the shill turned out to be meaningless, they will still get 25% back.
That won't get back my 600+ record with zero complaints, and that is appropriate. I won't even go the reinstatement route. They might not grant it anyway, with the earlier suspension for nonpayment of fees. I won't even think about selling on eBay for awhile, if ever. This is punishment that is deserved -- regardless of circumstances, I did something wrong.
But there is a lot more to the story than greektycoon told kuntryboy. I'm not sure if they are friends, or if he chose kuntryboy as someone who enjoys raising a ruckus on these boards. I didn't have enough of the facts last night, but this morning I got an email from him confirming what I thought. He laughed at me and said he hoped I enjoyed being in the same boat I put him in, and "now everybody knows it!" He knew all too well that I was cooperating on a shill, he waited until the auctions were complete, then he made sure eBay knew it. And obviously he is monitoring these boards, or has a friend here.
There are many more details about how greektycoon got his NARU, why he hates me for it (yes, he left me a sarcastic positive feedback before he got booted, trying to avoid a negative, but I never left him one because I was never paid and he was gone before I gave a neg) -- and how he got his revenge. kuntryboy, why don't you ask your buddy if you can share that with everybody?
I'm not doing it, because in the end it is irrelevant and a weasely excuse. The B.S. flag is perfectly deserved. I should have known better, and regardless of what anyone else did, my action was wrong and shameful, and I could have so easily avoided it. I yielded to temptation, I am being punished, and I am making restitution to those who may have paid too much in the auctions in question.
And with that, you won't be hearing any smart-ass commentary from me for awhile, or any commentary at all. At this time I don't feel like an upstanding member of the community. I f**ked up. I'm sorry.
The only thing you can control is what you do from here on out. You screwed up, got greedy, got caught, got suspended, and now you have to lie in your own bed. The most important thing right now is that you're doing everything in your power to make it right, which is clearly because you feel guilty for wronging people. I think that's the same reason you're being honest with us. You took the low road, now you're taking the high road. Whether or not you decide to sell on ebay is your choice, but as long as you do the right thing all the time, I have no problem with it. More times than we care to think about, someone with a history of being an honest seller (like you were) will "experiment" with some type of shadiness, whether it be shilling, trimming, or something else. Hopefully you won't be tempted to do it again.
Lee
T206's are always being bought.
aloof1003@comcast.net
Stingray
T206's are always being bought.
aloof1003@comcast.net
The one time I reported shill bidding, they just suspended the bidding account (which had a f/b rating of 6 - yeah, a lot was invested in that account) and let the powerseller keep rolling on. I've read similar stories on this board as well.
I guess ebay wants a "safe" community as long as it doesn't have too much effect on their bottom line?
A man stands up and sez "i was wrong" which you have done.
SD
Shame on you, JR.
<< <i>I am contacting the winners in those auctions to apologize and offer refunds of 25% to 50%, depending how much they were shilled and regardless of whether the shilling had any real effect on the final bid. If the shill turned out to be meaningless, they will still get 25% back. >>
In my honest opinion, it should matter if the item was shilled once or 100 times. A shill is a shill, period.
Having said that, you hopefully learned your lesson and pay for your actions.
Going forward, I wish you the best of luck.
Bump. Sorry JR, people ought to know...
SD
The big question is why did you do it ? Seems to me you had more to lose than gain. Also, a 600+ rating is tough to lose.
I hope you still post here because I enjoy reading your informative, intelligent posts.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
It takes a lot to come in here and admit wrongdoing...I have to say that i am a little dissapointed but at least you didnt dance around it.
Jr you have been a good member of the boards and very helpful to countless people.
I hope you work it out with the bidders, it would go a long way.
Groucho Marx
You have my support...it took a lot of moral courage to fess up.
Before anyone gets on their high horse - remember the guy told the truth and wants to move on.
I will expect you back when you feel up to it. And if anyone cheap shots you...I promise you have friends.
mike
it takes big balls to come forward and admit something like that.. hope all turns out well..
greed has gotten the best of people before.. you're not the first..
Kuntry Boy
Well I hada good time till they gave me the boot
So I made upa new name and I’m back to toot
You may not know me but not for looong…
Thank God I’m a Kuntry Boy!
Sooo, I got me a new name and I don’t like to diddle
When the sun’s comin’ up I put people in the middle
Life ain’t nothin’ but a funny funny riddle
Thank God I’m a Kuntry boy
Thank God I’m a Kuntry boy.
<< <i>it takes big balls to come forward and admit something like that.. hope all turns out well..
greed has gotten the best of people before.. you're not the first.. >>
You are correct to an extent. He at first blamed it on something else prior to fessing up on the shilling.
<< <i>No, not a bad credit card, nor a scam. It has to do with this, perhaps my worst transaction on eBay. I wasn't going to talk about it publicly until I had all the facts, which I don't. Yeah yeah, that's never stopped me from running my mouth before.
kuntryboy, you're a real class act. >>
And just out of curiosity, is this one of your shilling accounts? I only ask because he/she bidded on the thread's subject card, several of your others, won a couple too (including one that you mutually agreed to cancel), and is no longer a registered user.
This thread is ironic enough... However, it would be even more ironic if you shilled the item that you created this thread for
Like I said, going forward I wish you the best of luck. However, you should expect to take a few deserving lumps
As far as this forum is concerned…I believe the perspective should be taken…is the CU forum better off with or without jrdolan? No question at all in my mind that the forum is better off, MUCH better off with jrdolan a member of this forum. That being said, it is of course totally up to jrdolan whether or not he chooses to return. I hope he does choose to return. Either way I wish him well.
Steve
John
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Thank you for being honest. I can tell from your history and your prior auctions that you did not make a habit of this. Thank you for being honest and for making things right with your customers.
I agree with Steve. Something tells me kuntryboy's closet isn't exactly glistening... I know mine certainly isn't!!!
vtjrd NARU'd
That one lasted all of 12 days.
and how is Countryboy sniffing out JRs accounts?
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>He wasn't even trying to sell anything with this account. >>
No, I wasn't, and didn't plan to. It was an attempt to start fresh, with an account created after eBay suspended my accounts and those of the person with whom I cooperated on shilling. I didn't want to apply for reinstatement on those accounts because I knew that person and his partner here would be watching, and I didn't feel I deserved to keep those feedbacks anyway. So I wanted to start over. But it seems that hacking negatives away for a fee is not kuntryboy's only special skill with the eBay system, and he and greektycoon were not done with their game of revenge. Not that I made it too hard to find me. I just thought they were satisfied and moved on. Not at all. They are enjoying this far too much.
I have completed sending money to the shill victims, both his and mine, by PayPal and money order. More than the shilling ever generated in higher bids. Anyone here can contact the winning bidders in those auctions to verify.
This is my final appearance here. It was great, everyone, up until the time I yielded to temptation and made myself a hypocrite. I f***d up, and it cost my reputation on eBay and here. The fact that certain people enjoy twisting the knife doesn't change the fact of what I did. I deserved what I got. If anyone here can take a lesson from this, please do. Believe me, it just ain't worth it. Take care.
Don't let one person bring you down like that. Really enjoy your posts. Hey I am sure everyone has a skeleton in there closet(i.e.; Kuntryboy = totellthetruth ?). Anyways I for one would not like to see you go!
Stingray
You messed up (like everyone does) came here, fessed up. It did not RUIN your reputation here. On the contrary how you fessed up meant alot to many here and I am sure most do not look down on you for your transgression.
Maybe Kuntry can do the ebay community a real favor and read the 52 mantle thread and see how a convicted ebay mail fraud guy is still ebaying under the same name. with his computer savy and contacts maybe he could help out there.
SD
rats get what hey deserve in the end.
Heck, one of the most famous speeches in the world beginning with "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." This speech of course was given by Abraham Lincoln in Nov. 1863. Appearantly those words applied exclusively to his own kind, or I don't know the meaning of ALL or MEN. Why?
In 1851 a treaty was established between the U.S. and the Cheyenne, Sioux, Crows and other tribes. This treaty did not allow for land to be taken from the Indians but as was the case the tready was broken by the U.S., redone, and then broken again and again. The Cheyennes remained pretty darn peaceful while they were getting screwed in the buttocks over and over. Indian leaders Black Kettle and White Antelope were champions for peace between their tribes and the U.S. settlers, miners, and citizens. in early 1863, after a few years of lies to make the Indians look bad, and then after a couple of times when a few Indians got pssed off on their own merit, the Great Father ABRAHAM LINCOLN invited Black Kettle and White Antelope to Washington to assure them of the peaceful intentions of the U.S., and to assure them that their land would no longer be taken from them.
Black Kettle, White Antelope, Lean Bear and others were given medals by Lincoln to wear on their breasts, and Colonel Greenwood presented Black Kettle with a huge United States flag. Black kettle was promised that as long as that flag flew above him that no soldiers would ever fire upon him. Black Kettle was very proud of that flag and he always mounted it on a pole above his teepee. Whant happened next puts Abe's words as being hollow. A contingent of soldiers were riding up to the Cheyenne camp and Lean Bear wanted to go out and meet them to see why they were coming. He rode out with his medal proudly on his chest, along with some papers from Washington certifying him as a good friend of the U.S. He rode out to meet heavily armed soldiers and was riding up to the formed lined to shake hands with the officers to show his papers. When he was within 30 yards a the officer called to arms and the soldiers opened fire on Lean Bear and his companions. He fell off his horse right in front of the troops laying helplessly, and then the soldiers proceeded to finish him off. Then the Indians had the nerve to retaliate with their bows and arrows, and they battled until Black Kettle rode up and helped get his guys to stop and get out of there, even though the Indian warriors outnumbered them and could have overrun them. Then Black kettle visited witht the leaders of the territoy to find out answers, and got some lies and a few stories about stolen horses. Ultimately, the Denver leaders told them they could settle peacefully at Sand Creek with no worry at all. So they went there.
Black kettle camped with his people at Sand Creek with his large American Flag displayed over his teepee. On Nov 28th, in the night a rumbling was heard, and it was the familiar rumbling of soldiers on horses coming in for a charge. The soldiers opened fire upon everybody and anyone in the camp, including women and children. White Antelope was in shock. He came running out of his teepee with his medal on his chest, his arms raised and telling them to stop in plain English. The 75 year old man stopped and folded his arms with the Death Song emminating from his lips, and was shot down. By now, the women and children were gathering around Black Kettle's flag knowing that they would be safe as the Great Father promised. Underneath the U.S. flag was a white flag of surrender flying conspicuously in view. The Indians had made a grave mistake as the shoulders had already begun killing squaws huddled under a blanket, and ripping the privates off of the men, women and children to be used as decorations. Some thirty or forty squaws had been huddled in a hole for protection, and they sent out a six year old girl with a white flag for surrender. She was shot and killed. Then all the squaws in the hole were killed.
The group around the large U.S. flag was fired upon with a reckless abandon causing them to scatter. Black Kettle and his wife managed to flee the immediate danger, until his wife was gunned down only to stay and die. Black Kettle managed to escape, but a few hundred of his people weren't quite so lucky. They were slaughtered in the most inhumane ways imaginable. Appearantly the Flag and medals were hollow symbols of hollow words and ideals as evidenced by the slaughter. THe commander of the unit was given a slap on the wrist and moved to another post. Surely the politicians would do something to rectify this matter if they applied their vision as stated. Of course we all know the ultimate outcome of the Indian people.
As for Black kettle, he still wanted peace, partly because he knew he had no chance otherwise. After the same back and forth of promises, the obvious retaliation of many Indians, and the continuing land grabbing, Black kettle was given a place to camp with his peaceful Indians(most of the others went up North with Sitting Bull and the Sioux). A few more years passed with Black kettle living a life of hopeful peace, while being hated by some of his own men for not going on the war path with them. As a reward for his intentions, General Custer and the 7th rode upon Black Kettle's camp and finished the job. Black Kettle was dead.
This is one example of hundreds of misdeeds done by people who always spoke of truth, liberty, freedom, and all the other stuff we hear all the time. Abe Lincoln never gave the orders to do that, but he didn't do anything to rectify it either. This was all done in the name of money and greed as it usually is. So why would anyone be surprised by a shill bid?? Big f'king deal, a shill bid. I wish we could all, including myself, put things into better perspective. I wish we could all strive to be less bias and to get rid of one of our faces, as one face is enough. Hey buddy, don't beat yourself up over some shill bidding, so what. Instead of giving that money back to those bidders, give it to some hardworking fella who hasn't had any breaks go his way.
Lets face it, our wealthy are built on lies and deceit. 90% of the wealthy people in our country, AND THE WORLD, got wealthy at the expense of others. People give their creeds and beliefs but they never put them into pracitce, and they are really put out there as a model for others to follow and not necessarily themselves.
Please don't skip the story of Black kettle I relayed(in a butchered manner mind you).
You do whatever you want JR but the fact is that you have saved a number of people here many, MANY thousands, perhaps tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars by pointing out and exposing various scams. You could help people learn from what you did by pointing out shill bidders and what to look for based on first hand experience, sort of like that guy based on a true story from the movie "Catch Me If You Can" did...he was a check counterfeiter, got caught, but then wound up helping the FBI expose many other counterfeiters.
Take a little breather JR, relax for a while and then come on back to the forum. It's open 24 hours a day...we'll leave the light on for ya.
Steve