Searched case of 1997 Bowman Chrome.....
CDsNuts
Posts: 10,092 ✭
Just wanted to share this tragedy:
I recently bought a 1997 Bowman Chrome 6 box case intending to resell and make a little profit. I put it up on ebay. The winning bidder has 1417 pos. feedbacks with no negatives. this is his email to me:
"I never thought I would buy a case of cards that were previously searched. First for everything. You can't tell me different. There's finger prints on packs and on several of the cards. Cards that are cut by whatever tool was used to reseal the packs. No Woods, No Tejadas, No Berkmans, But I did get alot of nothing. I'm glad you sleep well at night."
Ouch. I told the guy I'd do whatever it takes to make this right. Looks like I'm out $500. Funny thing is I bought a bunch of stuff from the same guy and the rest of it is most defintely legit. Live and learn.
Lee
I recently bought a 1997 Bowman Chrome 6 box case intending to resell and make a little profit. I put it up on ebay. The winning bidder has 1417 pos. feedbacks with no negatives. this is his email to me:
"I never thought I would buy a case of cards that were previously searched. First for everything. You can't tell me different. There's finger prints on packs and on several of the cards. Cards that are cut by whatever tool was used to reseal the packs. No Woods, No Tejadas, No Berkmans, But I did get alot of nothing. I'm glad you sleep well at night."
Ouch. I told the guy I'd do whatever it takes to make this right. Looks like I'm out $500. Funny thing is I bought a bunch of stuff from the same guy and the rest of it is most defintely legit. Live and learn.
Lee
0
Comments
Selling sealed cases is a tuff biz! Who did you buy the case from? I think they should "share" in the embarassment.
mike
Lee
And, yet, he opened every box and pack? I find that a little hard to believe. Or did he only open some of them?
Any sensible person would stop after the first box if there were signs of tampering that were that obvious. You definately wouldn't open every box. And I've had enough sellers with 1000+ 100% f/b try to rip me off to know that it doesn't mean s%^@. One seller with over 1500 pos and no negs sold me a card for around $400 that she never even had (the card came up for auction from a different seller two weeks after I bought it from her), so don't think that impressive feedback really reflects honesty. (I did get my money back, BTW, along with a $120 bribe that I refused.)
If he opened everything, I'd tell him he's SOL.
Isn't the Bowman in foil packs?
Pretty rare for those type of packs to be resealed right?
SoFlPhillyFan- In order to reseal the packs, all you need is the machine that crimps the edges and seals it shut using heat; the ones the manufacturers use. Although, it's usually pretty obvious when it's done.
Lee
Were the boxes shrink wrapped and did Bowman have their name on the wrap in that year?
<< <i>This sucks. But what would be a worse tragedy is if he is scamming you, if he did get a nice selection of Tejada's and Berkmans, and now is getting his $500 back as well. I don't know how to make the call on that one, but I don't like that he opened every pack despite claiming to see signs of tampering. >>
After thinking about it JR, I agree - why did it take 6 boxes to determine that there was a problem if he states all of them were tampered with? My instinct would be to open the first and then stop! Contact seller - tell them the problem and ship it back - in fact if the packs looked tampered with - I wouldn't even have finished opening them up.
Lee
Did you sell the case for 552?
How does someone open the shrink wrap and place it back together without it being detectable?
mike
Do or can vendors open a box or whatever then shrink wrap it back together?
I think you're a big man for helping this brother out, but I would certainly get the cards back first, count them and then try to make more of an informed decision.....
Good Luck regardless my man!
Julen
RIP GURU
Save on ebay with Big Crumbs
Having the buyer return the commons along with some commons he got from another box (to make the count right) would prove nothing.
You can never be 100% certain if a buyer is lying, but, from everything you've said, your source sounds legit and the buyer seems very suspect. I guarantee you that if someone ever tried to get a refund from a major dealer under these circumstances they'd laugh their arses off.
And if you look in his email to me, he never asks for a refund of any kind. In fact, basically what he's saying is "You ripped me off and I know you're not giving my money back." If I'm wrong, then I'm out some money. But at least I can sleep knowing I did the right thing.
Lee
Unfortunately, and I want to stress UNFORTUNATELY, you are counting on the people that you are buying from and the people you are selling to, to be as honest as you are. PSA and GAI are literally making millions if not billions of dollars because the hobby isnt as honest as you are. You cant purchase a NM card anymore sight unseen, or even with a blownup scan without it being overgraded by 3 grades from 95 percent of the sellers. You cant even purchase a pack of cards, or a box, or even a partial case because they have already been searched or cherry picked. PSA and GAI are making money for the sole reason that 95% of the hobby cant be trusted. Sad but true....
if the packaging looked funny, and the individual packs didn't look right, and even the cards looked searched thru, he should
have stoped and emailed you right then.
If you order a steak at a restaurant and it isn't cooked well or tastes bad do you get your money back if you ate it all anyway? No, you stop eating and ask for another.
It must be very easy to spot resealed foil or plastic packs. Just think about it. The scammer must open them carefully, making sure not to wrip the wrapper. Ever wrestle with a small bag of chips only to have it explode open and scatter chips everywhere. Even if you have two cases of pack to make one searched case only the truly "nefarious" would attempt this. The length of the wrapper cannot be shortened too much to conceal the old crimping because there isn't much slack to properly reseal the cards. Many packs have plain silver at the crimped ends so a pack with crimping into the printed area would be a giveaway.
I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has seen resealed foil packs. I have to say I never have.
If they really were searched it only shows the lengths people will go to make a buck. I would be more apt to say that the boxes were opened and packs switched out with "cool" packs. I have been the victim of that in the past with 2001 baseball product.
Topps uses logo imprinted shrinkwrap I believe and we could assume that Bowman does also. Maybe ask for a couple of the shrink wrappers too.
I wouldn't be too quick to give the guy his money back, and I certainly would go after your seller if indeed the boxes were searched.
Good luck. This sucks for the hobby since foil wrappers are supposed to all but eliminate resealing.
BTW - the best price I have seen for dealer sold 97 Bowman Chrome 12 box cases is $1275. Was your case a jumbo pack case (8 or 6 boxes) or 1/2 of a full case?
And there never would be.
BTW, your boy bought a 100 card lot of 1997 bowman chrome commons for $5 on July 21 - 10 days before he bought your case. I know your auction hadn't been listed at that point, but that seems like kind of a strange purchase to me for anyone, let alone someone who's interested in buying a case or busting boxes of the same product. Generally, you bust the product first and then you go after whatever commons you need. Unless...
Lee
How about emailing him and asking why he opened so many when the first box was tainted?
I think by opening all of them - he may have bought the farm?
Just have a bad feeling about this guy?
yf
mike
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
Lee
"I'm thrilled with your refund, I knew I had been had, I thought there was nothing else I could do, i wasn't going to turn around and try to sell the remaining boxes and I sure didn't think you were going to turn out to be a trustworthy seller, so I let my son finish off opening them. E-mailed you my complaint and was going to just report it to Ebay. but I appreciate your geniune honesty , I really am enthused and grateful to see your so responsive to my situation. I'll do whatever it takes to help you out as well. just let me know what i can do. FEC3"
Here's my response:
"Honestly, it still doesn't make sense to me why you decided to open the remaining boxes. If you knew they were resealed after the first box, why didn't you email me before busting the rest of them? At least at that point you would have had some recourse. If I truly was scamming you, there's no way I would give you a refund after opening them, but at least you have a shot if the boxes are in tact. You also have proof that the boxes have been tampered with and could have filed for a refund through paypal or filed a complaint with ebay.
I shared our situation with the Collector's Universe forum- an internet discussion group with tons of experience in buying and selling cards. You can see the discussion here:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=421633
At this point, I really don't know what to do. I just can't comprehend why you would open the rest of the boxes if you knew they were tampered with. The more and more I think about it, the more I think you might be trying to pull something fishy. No offense is meant if you aren't, but the popular opinion in the discussion is that you might be the one trying to scam me.
Lee"
I truly am on the fence with this one. No idea what to do.
Lee
I've been in situations where I was ticked off beyond the point of making the best rational decision. Trying to put myself in his shoes... it's tough. Maybe making his son happy by letting him bust the rest of the packs was the only silver lining the buyer saw. Legitimate buyers make bad decisions, sometimes.
He may be a scammer, and some of his logic is faulty (I've seen cards factory-damaged by similar sealing machines, though I never collected this issue so can't speak to it in particular), but there's no way for you to know for sure.
Honestly -- and no offense -- but it seems like there's some responsibility on both sides. You didn't check/document the product before sending it out (I don't have to tell you that, it's why you offered the refund in the first place!), and he decided to let his son keep opening rather than stop and see if he could return the unopened product for a full refund. Hopefully he'll see that, and settle for a partial refund.
FWIW, I think you've handled it really well so far.
Morrie
before you mailed it to your customer.
BUT, the customer's story is weak. He has bought the same or similar product before.
Then, he throws in the "unhappy child" thing. I agree with you: It is REALLY hard to
know for sure. (Maybe, you have to suffer for not having looked at the stuff first.)
The problem is that the ONLY way you can "prove" you did not try to steal, is to give
the guy his dough back. BUT, where is HIS offering of good faith? It is lost too, because
he "kept opening" the junk EVEN AFTER he knew it was NG.
I would have grabbed up all the cards/boxes and stashed them away; told my grandkids
that a pirate had tried to rip us off; taken the kids to the card store and bought them
some stuff; emailed the seller with my complaint AND offer to "return the UNOPENED
portions of the order."
Be careful about offering him a refund IF you are not sure you are going to do it. He
has now memorialized in his email that you "offered a refund," whether you did or did not.
You are correct: It is a tough call.
Cher
I agree that the guy may be telling the truth - but here's my take:
1. It was a professionally sealed case and if I were Lee, I would check with Steve at BBCExchange and see how he feels about this. The guy is "board friendly" and will be very helpful.
2. The guy admitted he "gave up" on the case and ASSUMED the seller was bad - in doing that, unfortunately, he had waived his rights to a complete refund.
I do like the idea about Lee offering him some "go away" money. Not a bribe but a refund for doing something very stupid.
I personally don't think that if a case is professionally sealed by Topps that the seller has to touch it.
These are over 100$ boxes, you have to be in a really strong moment of weakness to give up and hand them over to children to bust. If my son were disappointed, I would have just turned around and made a roadtrip over to Target and picked him up a couple of 20$ booster boxes to appease him.
I'm sorry, but I've used the - "My son/wife/friend (thing) will be very disappointed" thing myself to get someone to do something for me - ya know - like get the repair guy over faster. Works every time!LOL
I still don't feel good about this one.
*I would check with Steve over at BBCEx myself.
mike
I guess I won't be doing that any more.
Lee
He senses something is wrong, yet he continues to bust packs?
There seems to be way too many things that have come up in his story for me to be a believer. Throw in the fact he bought a lot of commons very close to when he bought your case, and there is a wierd feeling about the whole thing.
If anybody cares what I decided, here's what I offered him:
- A 50% refund
- A Lance Berkman that I was going to send to PSA which is a definite 9 with a shot at a 10.
Here's my reasoning: The evidence suggests he's probably scamming me (maybe 65/35), but I know what it feels like to be ripped off and it really is an awful feeling. Therefore, $280 and a Berkman RC is worth my piece of mind in knowing that I did the right thing on the chance that someone I sold to was ripped off. Basically, it's a "Now I'll be able to sleep at night" refund. I'd rather regret losing a little money instead of regretting someone getting ripped off by something I bought and resold without checking. If I am being scammed, then screw it. At least I can feel ok about myself. Hopefully karma (if it exists) will come around if I ever run into a similar situation with something I bought.
Lee
I'm not familiar with 97 bowman chrome, but with a lot of products, factory sealed cases sell for more than their per box breakdown because buyers are weary of getting cold boxes. So, if you break the seal on any future cases you sell, I think buyers will be concerned that you switched a box or two out.
With that said, if you check the seals on the cases, what else can you do?
I agree about emailing Steve if you plan to sell much unopened product, if for no other reason than to find out how often these situations come about.
I think a 50% refund is a more than reasonable accomodation. You said the guys feedback was solid but I am always a bit suspicious of those stories that involve kids (are they simply weak attempts to garner sympathy?). I mean how much wax does a typical father buy for his kid to bust?
Eyebone
I'm a little confused. Did you already offer him a full refund? That sounds like you did from the tone of his email. I think 50% and the Berkman is a very fair offer.
Save on ebay with Big Crumbs
You're a good guy - that's more than generous and much more than many would have done!
I hope the guy appreciates that he screwed up and was well taken care of!
mike
<< <i>I'm a little confused. Did you already offer him a full refund? That sounds like you did from the tone of his email. >>
That was what I based my response on, too, since I thought it was excessive.
<< <i>I think 50% and the Berkman is a very fair offer. >>
I think it serves the most important purpose of all -- letting Lee do something in case the guy is telling the truth, without taking a 100% loss on it if he's being scammed.
I appreciate that the board looks out for its own. But it's way too easy for us to just tell him to blow the guy off when (a) there's a chance we could be wrong, and (b) we're not the ones who have to live with the possibility that we were.
As to what kind of dad buys a $500 case to bust with his son... one who's loaded? If I had the money, wanted to share the collecting experience with my son, and liked the set, $500 might not seem like a big deal.
Lee, I think you're doing the right thing, but it doesn't matter what anyone thinks but you. If you're satisfied, that's the only thing that makes any difference.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Finishing the box I can understand, because you want to verify that nothing of value was left in the box. But the entire case? So Junior will stop whining? From an outsider's point of view, not being influenced by the person-to-person communications you have had ... I think you may have been taken. I wonder how many "searched" boxes and cases Junior has ripped through while Dad was e-mailing the seller for a refund.
I'd monitor him to see if he's selling raw 97 Bowman Chrome Tejadas on eBay in the near future.
My Steve Carlton Basic Registry Set
"Lee,
I just got home from a short business trip and read your email. This guy is whacked. I bought 5 of these when they came out from a dealer who is direct from Topps.They have sat in my storage room since. I don't open packs let alone search boxes! I don't have the time! I plainly don't mess with singles much period. I have always liked to collect boxes and cases in mint condition. First of all, the case was factory sealed, second, the boxes come shrink wrapped with Topps logo wrap, and 3rd, how the heck do you open a foil pack and reseal it without clearly noticing it?I've heard of people searching wax packs over the years but not the packs the companys use nowadays.
I'm guessing this guy opened the case and didn't get a real good run and wants to take it out on someone.
That's all I can tell you on this one.I'm a busy man who does business everyday using integrity and honesty and don't have the time to plat games especially with sports cards!!
Doug"
Now, I trust this guy because I've bought a lot of unopened vintage stuff from him and none of it has been tampered with. This includes a 1985 Donruss rack case, a 1987 Donruss rack case, and 87/88 and 88/89 Fleer basketball boxes. Now I find out that the user is NARU'd (thanks shambo). Considering he rarely sells, it's most likely not because of late payment to ebay. I emailed ebay to find out why. Will they tell me? Even though I have offered a refund to him (twice actually), I feel fine going back on my word if it turns out that this guy is almost definitely a scammer.
Lee
Minnie Minoso Master and Basic
1967 Topps PSA 8+
1960's Topps run Mega Set
"For me, playing baseball has been like a war and I was defending the uniform I wore, Every time I put on the uniform I respected it like the American flag. I wore it like I was representing every Latin country."--Minnie Minoso
<< <i>First of all, the case was factory sealed, second, the boxes come shrink wrapped with Topps logo wrap, and 3rd, how the heck do you open a foil pack and reseal it without clearly noticing it?I've heard of people searching wax packs over the years but not the packs the companys use nowadays. >>
Exactly!
The Refund Nazi says -
hell no dont refund him even a penny.. he's a scammer.. if not a scammer, definitely a dumbass..
screw him, he cant even leave you feedback since he's NARU..
You can get tossed for intimidating buyers/sellers or for feedback extortion. Maybe he crossed the line with another seller? We'll never know.
I'd block his emails and forget the bum. Ebay won't do anything to help him and paypal would laugh at his goofy story.
1960 Armour Coins
Greg Maddux Basic
Greg Maddux Master
All Time 49ers
<< <i>It wasn't that much less, I think I bid $208 on a case and he offered one to me for $200 >>
Lee
Am I correct that a guy sold you a case that will go on ebay in the 500$ range for 200$?
If so, why? That's too cheap? People who sell wax work on a small margin of profit for the most part.
Maybe the guy "knew" something?
What do ya think?
mike
The $200 case I bought was a 1987 Donruss rack case. That was the first transaction I had with the original seller and haven't had any problems with anything he's sold me. It's actually not a bad business strategy to email bidders if you have the same stuff because you will never sell anything for less than you want to get for it. Of course using ebay to find buyers without giving them a cut is a moral issue, but if the guy has something to sell and it turns out to be legit, I have no problems buying it if the price is right.
Lee
T-205 Gold PSA 4 & up
1967 Topps BB PSA 8 & up
1975 Topps BB PSA 9 & up
1959 Topps FB PSA 8 & up
1976 Topps FB PSA 9 & up
1981 Topps FB PSA 10
1976-77 Topps BK PSA 9 & up
1988-89 Fleer BK PSA 10
3,000 Hit Club RC PSA 5 & Up
My Sets
"He is a young kid (15, 16,17 I assume) and not a very honest one who refused to pay for the item. I contacted him by phone after countless emails. I should have left him a negative but it was a second chance offer and I was not out any money after checking with ebay. I assume he would have left me a negative if I left him one in retaliation and it would have been my first in over 5000 transactions. I quickly came to realize that he is the type of individual who would scam virtually any ebayer in his path. The fact that he reneged on the item was a blessing in disguise for me. Believe me, your case was surely clean and he will look to scam his own mom for a free ride. Do not give him an inch because he will take you for the whole case. I have seen enough scammers on ebay in my 6 years and he is near the top of the list and at a young age to boot. Hope this helps-Bob"
At this point I can confidently tell this guy to screw off. Thanks to everybody that helped me here. This board rocks.
Lee
<< <i>After emailing all the people who he bought unopened product from on ebay, I got this response:
"He is a young kid (15, 16,17 I assume) and not a very honest one who refused to pay for the item. I contacted him by phone after countless emails. I should have left him a negative but it was a second chance offer and I was not out any money after checking with ebay. I assume he would have left me a negative if I left him one in retaliation and it would have been my first in over 5000 transactions. I quickly came to realize that he is the type of individual who would scam virtually any ebayer in his path. The fact that he reneged on the item was a blessing in disguise for me. Believe me, your case was surely clean and he will look to scam his own mom for a free ride. Do not give him an inch because he will take you for the whole case. I have seen enough scammers on ebay in my 6 years and he is near the top of the list and at a young age to boot. Hope this helps-Bob"
At this point I can confidently tell this guy to screw off. Thanks to everybody that helped me here. This board rocks.
Lee >>
Glad to hear you held off for a bit...most everyone here felt the story was bullcrap! Thinking flawed.
The kid is a loser!
mike
Good to hear everything worked out as it should have and justice was served (you never did refund the money, right?!).
It feels good having taken the high road, though, doesn't it?!
hh
The kid is a loser!"
With all due respect, Stone, that sounds a little harsh. I pulled some incredibly immoral scams at that age, and I'm still embarrassed by them. However, like most people I ran with at the time I grew up.
I know all kinds of guys who've stolen 200-500 dollar items from stores as kids, and they've gone on to live decent and honest lives. This isn't all that different from a kid ripping off a few hundred dollars worth of clothes from the mall, and we probably all know someone (either a friend or a friend's kid) who's done something like that.