How is authenticity of "ancient" coins determined, or is it "trust me, I'm a coin dea

pharmer

The co-owner of my favorite shop goes to various places in Europe every summer to look for ancient coins, according to him. He must be pretty good, as he always has the new ones for sale upon his return. Which is all good, since they would just stay lost otherwise. I wonder how the ancient coins are determined to be real? They're metal and cannot be carbon-14 dated, they are crude and thus easily made, and they are usually in pretty good shape. His look like all the ones I see in other shops and on the internet. Another thing I wonder about is the dearth of coins from the intervening thousands of years between the Roman empires and now. I've always wanted a circa 1257 a.d. coin to remind me of the good old Magna Carta days.

I know some on here collect these, how do you know they were made during "ancient" times, ancient meaning pre-last Thursday.

Disclaimer: I am not know, nor have ever been, a member of the Ohio Numismatic Party, or a resident of Michigan, and have no agenda regarding this matter

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PerryHall

There is a "World and Ancient Coin" forum. You might get more help there. Good question though.

pharmer

Wouldn't that be like shouting "prove it!" in a crowded church? I don't think the true believers will take kindly to heresy

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Steve27

"I've always wanted a circa 1257 a.d. coin to remind me of the good old Magna Carta days."

That would be Medieval not ancient.

Dennis88

<< <i>"I've always wanted a circa 1257 a.d. coin to remind me of the good old Magna Carta days."

That would be Medieval not ancient. >>





A byzantine gold coin from that era is very

Here's a good site for those coins

tjkillian

I understand that the oldest dated coin is from the late 1200's and is Danish, and the Magna Carta was signed at Runnymede in June, 1215.

Tom

relayer

There are a number of ancient coins that survive today in excellent condition.

For the most part alot of coins didn't circulate since most people were peasants and coins were hoarded by the Lords and the Kings.

Dennis88

<< <i>I understand that the oldest dated coin is from the late 1200's and is Danish, and the Magna Carta was signed at Runnymede in June, 1215.

Tom >>



Not true. This coin is dated EID-MAR. (Ides of March) Which means March 15. We know Julius Caesar was killed in 44 B.C.



This is one of the most popular Roman coins, and also is a "commemorative" issue. It was issued by Brutus, Who killed Julius Caesar on March 15, 44 B.C. It is thus the first "dated" coin in the world.

Here's a text from this site, about Julius Caesar.

On March 15, 44 BCE, Marcus Junius Brutus and his fellow conspirators stabbed Caesar to death. On the famous "Eid Mar" (Ides, or 15th, of March) coin, he painted himself as a supporter of freedom. The "Liberty Cap" symbol (which was adopted in much U.S. coinage) was an obvious reference to freeing the Roman people from slavery under Caesar.

Of course, nothing is ever that simple. The Senatorial system that Brutus supported was not one of freedom for the common man, but rather of privilege for the wealthy. The irony of this view of Brutus as freedom's champion is that Caesar was already in the process of replacing wealthy and privileged aristocrats with people of more humble origins. This might ultimately have had the effect only of replacing one privileged elite with another, but Caesar was viewed as more of a friend of the common Roman than were the Senators whose cause Brutus championed.

In any case, Caesar's second-in-command, Marc Antony, used the occasion of Caesar's funeral to fan the flames of outrage against his assassins, and Brutus and Cassius were forced to flee Rome. Though there were still a few more acts to play out, the last hope of reestablishing the Republican form of government was near death.

Russ

If they smell like olive oil, they're real.

Russ, NCNE

Dennis88

<< <i>If they smell like olive oil, they're real.

Russ, NCNE >>



And wine

pharmer

<< <i>"I've always wanted a circa 1257 a.d. coin to remind me of the good old Magna Carta days."

That would be Medieval not ancient. >>



Geez, go back and read it again, I didn't say that was ancient, I said the Magna Carta days, and I was just ball parking the year from the top of my headSo my guess is, by the quibbling about a throwaway line, you folks either are: purchasers who are now looking at their "ancient" coins saying "that IS a good question"or sellers who are saying "shhh!". No takers on answering the question, though. Ah, the river runs broad, but not deep

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cladking

These are authenticated much like the more modern coins are authenticated; experts
no what to look for.

Many of the 10th to 15th century coins are difficult to find and there are fewer common
ones than the ancients or moderns.

Russ

<< <i>No takers on answering the question, though. >>



Hey! I answered the question.

Russ, NCNE

Danegeld

First, you must find a reliable source for the ancients. Once that's established you should be OK with their offerings. Also snag a few uncleaned lots from the same fellow or who they reccomend. It's always fun to clcean and make your own discoveries.

Here is a good site for attribution.

www.wildwinds.com

Have Fun
Ben

nwcs

<< <i>Wouldn't that be like shouting "prove it!" in a crowded church? I don't think the true believers will take kindly to heresy
>>

It is proven.

I think that the majority of ancient coins in cruddy condition are probably genuine. I think enough study has been done on better specimens to probably have a good idea of what is genuine and what is not. However, I would only buy certified for better ancient stuff and even then I know it's only more-likely-than-not genuine.

tmot99

I don't really have an answer. I have wondered the same question. I trust one dealer for ancients and that's Pegasi. They have been very good for me and very informative. I don't spend much time with ancients, but am slowly assembling a 12 Caesar set just for kicks. I get 1 or 2 coins a year.

pharmer

Most likely scenario explaining their waiting patiently in some hole for a guy from Boulder to come 7000 miles to dig them up every summer:

(It's 1500 b.c., ((give or take a millenium-so sue me)), and when last we checked in on Pugnacious XVIII, last coin merchant of Venice and Rome, he was patiently burying coins with his able assistant, Rubella Cabrini):

'Hey Rube, gimme another sack-o-coins, will ya, got the hole bought dug. Bet it'll take 'em 3500 years to find these babies!"
"Duh, wha fo we doin dis anyhow's, Pug?. Tot dey wuz fo spendin an such?"
"That's just what they'd expect, now isn't it, Rube? No, we'll bury em, and forget em! That's the ticket!"

(fast forward 2700 years, a MEDIEVAL, OK? forest clearing, Chauncey Chaucer and his son, Portnoy, are digging for grubs):

"Da, look hear what I found in da hole! Round, shiny metallic objects d'art! I believe dey are gold, silver and such"
"Well, well, my boy, well done. Methinks we must put them back however. Never heard of any civilizations using these metals other than the Romans, so it would be out of character for anyone to actually find some use or value for them for, oh, I don't know, another few hundred years. This would of course explain why we didn't make any of these, as well. It all will make sense to those who find these and then sell them, as it will make sense to those who buy them".

"Ancient" coins don't pass the laugh test if you think about it rationally.
Who would bury them?
Why?
Who would not use them if they found them?
Why are they found only now?
Why are the authorities of the places they are being "found" letting them leave the country of origin?
Why are they so relatively cheap? If real, they would be priceless, give or take a few mill.
Other cultures have not used coins in the intervening thousands of years since ancient Roman times and now? I'm tellin ya, it must be a religion, it's based wholly on faith

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Toren

Er...Pharmer, you might want to read some books on ancient coin collecting. The experts in the field aren't quite as dim as you seem to think.
And that's all I've got to say about that.

JadeRareCoin

One thing that I can tell you is that there are a lot of very good counterfeit ancient coins on the market. To be safe, I would recommend that you obtain as much education in this area as possible and align yourself with a knowledgeable ancient coin dealer. Don't be afraid to ask the dealer questions about how to authenticate ancient coins. That is the best way to learn.

lathmach

Jonathon Kern deals in ancients. I asked him one time how you could tell for certain they were real.
His answer was simple.
"Be there when they're dug up."

Ray

JadeRareCoin

"Be there when they're dug up."



Funny, but also true to some extent. I have heard of hoards of fakes being buried, then excavated and marketed as the real thing. So, being there is not 100% safe either. The counterfeiters are clever, as well as very talented artisans. Even the experts get fooled sometimes. Just ask Harlan Berk, as well as several other experts.

I have handled some amazing fake counterfeit Greek and Roman coins. Some of the best ones come out of Eastern Europe (i.e. Bulgaria). I have been told that the Italian counterfeits are the best, however. I don't deal in these often. Just enough to have a small bit of knowledge. I just bought 2 Roman pieces at the Alabama show and paid just under $100. My rule is to stick with the cheaper ones so that if I do get burned, it won't hurt too badly. The most expensive piece I handled was a $25,000 AR Dekadrachm by Kimon, Syracusan, 405-380 B.C. Turned out to be a counterfeit! I also handled 4 ancient gold coins valued at over $40,000 (Licinius I, Gordian III, Magnia Urbica & Philip II). All 4 came back from ICG as high quality forgeries. Good thing my consignment agreement was contingent upon the coins being certified as genuine!

morgannut2

If it's Roman, Celtic, or English coins you are interested in, the British National Museum has curators who have spent lifetimes studing and authenticating these coins. The "be there when dug" isn't far off--as they compare numerous dug coins, especially those associated with datable ruins, to decide what's real.

I thought only copper coins all smelled like olive oil??

pharmer

Being there when they're dug up is sort of my point. Bring a string of coincidences like that together, will you please, sir, and a side of Holy Grail while we're at it.

What you gonna do today?
Go digging for ancient Roman coins.
Hmm. Where's that?
Where they are.
Hmm. How you know where they are?
Guy told me where to dig, he's a native of that country.
I don't think it's a for real kind of thing. No way to prove they are ancient, or Roman, is there?
Just be there, then you'll believe.
Why you so sure you're gonna dig em up? And right where you're digging? Why do YOU believe?

Again, would the believers at least try to answer my questions, instead of saying "just because"
Why would they be buried in the first place? Who would do that? "Civilized" Romans, tired of the commerce gig, ready to get back to the hunting and gathering days? Who needs these old coins, anyway. Throw them in a hole somewhere, there's a good lad

mrearlygold

<< <i>

<< <i>If they smell like olive oil, they're real.

Russ, NCNE >>



And wine >>





And a parmesana cheese!

morgannut2

Pharmer: You'd enjoy a Discovery Channel search of a Roman villa in England on TV several years ago. The damn thing had been dug and redug so many times they couldn't figure a thing out from their very expensive high tech search. All they got was a bunch of tiles from the eco-friendly heated floors!

tmot99

<< <i>Again, would the believers at least try to answer my questions, instead of saying "just because"
Why would they be buried in the first place? Who would do that? "Civilized" Romans, tired of the commerce gig, ready to get back to the hunting and gathering days? Who needs these old coins, anyway. Throw them in a hole somewhere, there's a good lad >>




Just for clarification, I am no expert and am only repeating what I have heard and read....

Many of the Roman soldiers would leave their home to go fight. Remember, the Roman Empire is HUGE. Therefore, there were a ton of coins minted. But when they would go fight, they didn't want to leave their money just sitting in the house. They didn't have "banks" as such to keep them in and use ATM machines. So, when they are called to fight, they would bury their extra money; they certainly couldn't carry everything with them. If the soldier got killed, then the loot never got dug up.

pharmer

He wouldn't tell the family, who would need it even more if he died?

Sorry, but thanks for playing, you've got bigger nads than some others, so we've got the home version of our game for you

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tmot99

Well, I can think of a few scenarios that could work, but I am in no way studied on ancient civilization. I can see if a father and son were killed the women of the family might not know or remember in their grief about the money. They may have moved back with their family to take care of them. Also, what if an entire town or settlement was captured, killed, and burned? The soldiers nor their families would be there to dig up the loot that was left. And I doubt they were using their metal detectors to see if and where money was left.

majorbigtime

Just rely on the PCG Guarrantee of Authenticity (if you can find it).

pharmer

Hmm, I like it, and we could get Oliver Stone to do it, he's not getting hired these days after AlexanderSee, I think of Pompeii and Vesuvius as being believable scenarios, but that's a short list. Digging holes, putting gold and silver coins in them, and walking away, for good, like Lance Armstrong or something, just is not in human nature. The kool-aid drinkers have to believe that human motivations were different then, like the suppliers of these claim. Sorry, don't think so. They would be coveted, used, melted, beaten into plowshares, whatever, but not buried and forgotten until some yuppie from Boulder showed up with his garden spade.

So, to finally answer my own question, the authenticity CANNOT be determined. The composition of the metals has remained unchanged since the stars were formed. It IS "trust me, I'm a coin dealer", surprisinglyenough! Ergo, the possibility exists that a few are authentic, but rational thought concludes that they are almost entirely fake, and the market relies on blind faith, which is surprising to me, because proof plays a pretty large role in the provenance/value of all other coins we collect.

Finis.

BigAlan

"Ancient" coins don't pass the laugh test if you think about it rationally.
Who would bury them?
Why?
No banks

Who would not use them if they found them?
Coppers haven't been legal tender for 1500 years

Why are they found only now?
When dug up during the middle ages they were often referred to as Jew or Elf money.

Why are the authorities of the places they are being "found" letting them leave the country of origin?
In most countries the authorities aren't "letting" them go.

Why are they so relatively cheap? If real, they would be priceless, give or take a few mill.
Some are "priceless" but millions of others were made over the centuries.

pharmer

No banks. Ding ding, I'll buy that!

Point taken, but really referring to precious metals, gold, silver, kleptomanium, which when found, would be kept, not reburiedneutral, no points given or taken away

Jew or elf money. Did you know it is bad luck to say elf? That's why they are referred to surreptitiously as The Gentry, The Lords and Ladies, the Glamoured Ones. To name them is to call them, and that's not good. Because, like faeries (the correct spelling) they are BAD!!! Anyway, silly point, 2 demerits, watch it

Then what are the authorities doing, getting their palms greased? They're showing up in dealer's cases everywhere, man! Jury's out on this one

Millions were made? Irrevelant. Ivrevigant. Ill elephant, your honor, I call another witness for the defense of the authenticity of "ancient" coins, if that is their real name

Aethelred

Pharmer, I have been sent as an ambassador from the "World and Ancient Forum (Darkside)." I collect medieval to early modern English coins, but also used to collect ancient Roman coins. I will attempt to answer your question, but I doubt that my answer will meet with your total satisfaction, at least until you have learned more about ancient and medieval coins.

First, there are a few things that you look for to assure that the coin in question is not one of the "obvious" fakes that fool neophyte collectors, but can be spotted by a more seasoned collector across a room. The first thing to check for is any sign that a coin has been cast. If there is a seam around the edge of if the details look a bit "fuzzy" (unless you are dealing with one of the few ancients that should be cast) the coin is a fake. Also check a reference to see if the obverse and reverse belong together, it may sound silly, but many of the fakers don't know better. Next you might want to weigh the coin, if it is not within the correct weight range for that issue, it is suspect.

Now for the more difficult part, that being the better quality fakes that are made to fool serious collectors. When an attentive collector has looked at enough coins he begins to understand what an ancient coin should look like. I am not going to get into questions of style as I am not really qualified to properly do so, but I will say that after thousands of coins and many years, you just get it. Our modern minds and sensitivities are not able to reproduce ancient art. The best advice is to study busts, figures and lettering.

I hope this helps and I would also invite you to visit us on the Darkside!


By the way, below is a photo of an English Penny minted during the reign of King John, during the period Magna Carta was granted. You may find it interesting that all coins of King John (as well as those of Richard the Lionhearted) bear the name "HENRICVS." The Short Cross type Penny was introduced during the Reign of Henry II and the powers that be at the time didn't think it would be wise to change anything after Henry died. You can only tell when the coins were issued and thus under which reign they were issued, by minor differences in the lettering or bust of the king.

ENGLAND, John, AR Penny, London Mint, NGC VF-35, Spink-1353, issued AD 1210-1217

pharmer

Well said, and well met, hale and, uh, pointy fellow! (You ask for a witness, and they send a druid. Typical) Hey, Clankeye, you want to get me out of this? Thanks for the info, seriously, and I will look into it further, and lurk in yon environs. But, see, I'm questioning the whole burying to begin with thing. The not being found thing. Then if found, not being used thing, as if there were Medieval numismatic groups concerned with their preservation, you know what I mean? It's not like this stuff was growing on trees during the Dark Ages, they would have been used, reused, changed, not preserved. And what about the odds of a 55 year old Boulder hippie saying he's going to Europe to dig them up and doing so, which since it was just boastfully exclaimed this past weekend, for about the tenth year in a row, caused me to start this thread. Would he tell tales? Did I mention he's a coin dealer? No matter the scholarly work on the manufacturing niceties, the whole scenario strains credulity, no?

Aethelred

<< <i>Well said, and well met, hale and, uh, pointy fellow! (You ask for a witness, and they send a druid. Typical) >>



Not a Druid at all, just a musty old Saxon.




<< <i>Hey, Clankeye, you want to get me out of this? Thanks for the info, seriously, and I will look into it further, and lurk in yon environs. >>



Do at least say "hello."




<< <i>But, see, I'm questioning the whole burying to begin with thing. The not being found thing. Then if found, not being used thing, as if there were Medieval numismatic groups concerned with their preservation, you know what I mean? It's not like this stuff was growing on trees during the Dark Ages, they would have been used, reused, changed, not preserved. >>



Coins would have been buried for any number of reasons, both intentional and otherwise. The most obvious reason to bury your coins would be that something bad was about to or just had happened. If you area Roman shopkeeper and the Goths are waiting for the redlight just outside of town to turn green so they can come in and pillage a bit, you are going to bury your money, hope it is not found, run like hell, and hope you live to come back for it at some point. Many times you end up dead or a slave in some far off place and never see your coins again.

In the Middle Ages (when they did use and make coins by the way), not many ancients were found because people did not know how to go about finding them. Those that were found were considered very special, worth more than the value of the metal they were made of, just as they are today, they would never be buried again! The nice ones would end up in some royal collection as people in the Middle Ages did in fact collect coins. Coin collecting dates back to well before the birth of Christ, one coin collector was none other than the first Roman Emperor Augustus Caesar.




<< <i>And what about the odds of a 55 year old Boulder hippie saying he's going to Europe to dig them up and doing so, which since it was just boastfully exclaimed this past weekend, for about the tenth year in a row, caused me to start this thread. Would he tell tales? Did I mention he's a coin dealer? No matter the scholarly work on the manufacturing niceties, the whole scenario strains credulity, no? >>



Chances are that your hippie friend is not finding the coins himself. There are people is Europe and the Middle East who make their living searching for ancients and with the advent of metal detectors they find quite a few. There are also people who make their living making the coins, so a healthy dose of caution is needed. It is easy to make a fake ancient, but it is very hard to make one that will fool the experts, it can and has been done, but it is not an easy task. The fact of the matter is that many ancient coins are only worth a few dollars or less, they are not worth the time and trouble to fake, this is the same reason you don't see fake War Nickels or 1956 Wheat Cents, who would bother? One common type of ancient is a small bronze coin issued by Constantine the Great, with two soldiers on the reverse. It is thought that at least ten million of these were minted and even in top grades they may only bring $15 or so, who would fake that?

pharmer

Thanks Aethelred, I can buy all of that. But what about another question I posed, the dearth of any coins from the intervening thousands of years, post-Roman civilization to now. I asked in a joking manner, but I'm serious, where are they? If they are not to be found, why would Roman coins be found? Where are the approx 800a.d. coins, say from the Middle East, that might have a certain religion's leader on them? You know, M.......d. He surely was depicted on coins. It's OK if you don't quote me, I can remember what I said, and we seem to be the only two involved in this discussion, and I'm outta here soon

Sylvestius

<< <i>Many of the 10th to 15th century coins are difficult to find and there are fewer common
ones than the ancients or moderns. >>




As a 10th Century coin collector i know this to be true.

1jester

Pharmer, to help answer some of your lingering questions, most medieval-era coins were in constant use and were melted and reused for future issues. Also, it's worth pointing out that almost without exception, medieval-era coins were made of silver, whereas virtually all Roman coins from the 2nd-5th century AD were base coins (copper). So let's look at a timeline--it wasn't thousands of years since the fall of the Roman Empire until the medieval ages. The Roman Empire fell in about 500 AD, give or take. There was only a few hundred years of "dark" ages, during which time most history was lost, including history of coinage in general. But by the 8th century, most lands were up and running again, using pure silver as coinage. For example, in France and England and other places. So let's just say that hoards were buried during this time and afterwards, and then found later. These hoards, as Aethelred pointed out, would either end up in the collections of nobles and kings, or they'd be melted (they're silver, or rarely, gold--remember?) for new issues. Also, old circulated coins were constantly being melted and reissued. So there are very few medieval coins in existance, and hoards are also rarely found. As has been pointed out numerous times, Roman coins (copper) were minted in the millions and millions. So what's so surprising about them being dug up? I don't know how to answer your questions to your satisfaction. I'm sure if you do some more research into the subject, you'll find the answers to your questions. And please drop by the Darkside in your quest for knowledge!!

nwcs

>The Roman Empire fell in about 500 AD, give or take

We should be clear. Only the western empire fell then. The eastern empire centered in Constantinople continued for some time afterwards and probably should be called roman and not just byzantine. I may be mistaken in my next statement because I'm going on long memory without looking it up. But I believe the eastern empire was the root of the Holy Roman Empire which lasted through the middle ages until its defeat finally in the Crusades.

pharmer

Thanks for the info, and I will check in on your forum, and you're right, I remain unconvinced of their authenticity since it is not possible to be proven. Want to believe? You bet

nwcs

This is the board you want to go to

shirohniichan

I don't think ancient coins are worth collecting because there are no UDCAMS.

nwcs

Didn't the rolling stones sing, "shine me up?"

BigAlan

But I believe the eastern empire was the root of the Holy Roman Empire which lasted through the middle ages until its defeat finally in the Crusades.


The Holy Roman Empire (neither holy nor roman and not much of an empire) was in the West and coexisted with the Eastern Empire until 1453 when the Eastern Empire fell to the Ottomans.

Toren

Pharmer, practically everything you say about ancient coins applies to rare US coins. So, by your logic, unless you were there to catch that gold 1884 MS-69 as it came off the dies, I guess you just "want to believe." I mean, how could a soft gold coin survive all those years in such good condition? Who could believe it? Ergo, it must be fake.
Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself here with your lack of knowledge and your muleheadedness on this subject.
No insult, just sayin'...y'know?

Aethelred

<< <i>Pharmer, practically everything you say about ancient coins applies to rare US coins. >>



Sopmething I was thinking, but didn't want to say. You do after all see quite a few fake US gold coins.

billboat

This has been a very interesting thread--I've got a few ancients which I believe to be authentic. Also have a few books on Greek and Roman coinage that I consult periodically... I think the question of burying ancient coins has been handled and just want to add that there have been a number of US and Colonial coin hoards dug up within the last 100 years in the good old US--like the 4 or 5 boxes dug up in New Orleans in the early 80's and the recent early half dollar hoard back east.(See Bowers' American Coin Treasures and Hoards). So Pharmer, it looks like people just like to throw their money down a hole!.