As a modern collector, anybody who pays up the wazoo for PSA low-pops and then somehow suggests I'm crazy for buying a pack of Exquisite seriously needs to go, well, do various things to themselves I respect your chasing of the illusion of value, you'd better respect mine Face it, anybody who gets seriously involved with anything collectible, as a HOBBY (key word) is bound to lose out in the purely financial sense. People are just setting themselves up for failure if they start collecting as an "investment" because collecting involves a personal connection to that which is being collected, while successful investing requires a personal detachment from that in which a individual decides to invest. Beckett exists, Ebay exists, autographs, memorabilia cards, and low-numbered cards exist; they wouldn't if the COLLECTORS out there didn't want them. Even though Donruss made some great products, I doubt that is signaling the demise of the hobby; people will just buy more of what's out there, which is still plenty. Not to mention the hobby, just like the rest of the economy, is still dealing with the hangover from the late 90s and early 2000 in the sense that people are still cautious about spending much if anything at all on collectibles, and many collectible markets that had people dabbling in them as exotic investments found out what all that frothy behaviour can lead to; there will be another cyclical upswing, the hobby will not die, and I highly doubt there will be a monumental shift in the way card companies produce products.
OK if anybody has deciphered the long rambling paragraph above, I commend you
Kobe Who? At least Dwyane pays proper respect to Da Big Aristotle
Boopotts - that was a great post. Very true, on many levels, what you have stated. This, coming from a guy who last year (and earlier this year) thought people were insane to pay for UD Exquisite. Now, I have a case coming next week, because - I can, and I like the product.
The card industry does need to keep things interesting for kids though - and they aren't doing a very good job. Greed always messes it up. Take for example last years National Trading Card Day - how long was it before dealers were selling the "free" cards on Ebay (some even graded them!)? I remember reading a letter in SCD about a father who took his son to a shop that day, and they told him they were out of the free cards (very early in the morning). It just seems like we may never get back to the "days of innocence" when cards were just cards we collected, traded, flipped, whatever...now, cards are money making vehicles for too many folks, and that prevents many people from getting simple pure enjoyment from the cards.
<< <i>The problem, I think, is that it's late, and we're all tired, and as a result we're all probably talking about different things. >>
In a more perfect world, we'd work on our collections when we were fresh, and do our real jobs when we were tired. I do think that there's a mixture of guys on the boards, some who seek to make a profit, and some who collect for enjoyment. It's all good. But, I'm a-lovin' it, and sure hope the "hobby" keeps going for a while longer. Collecting has been going on forever, and, IMHO, there's no reason why it won't keep going on. PSA, right or wrong, has set standards, and (hopefully) there will always be fewer 10s than 9s, etc., which seems OK by me. Someone should make that decision, and personally, I would rather see more standardization than otherwise. And, let the market decide--if a 9 is worth twice an 8, then so it shall be. There are modern players I like, but I seem to be attracted more to the "vintage" players, so it's their stuff I want. If I were 40 years younger, I would think differently. I'm not concerned about it. As long as I keep under the "wife radar" with my buying, I'm gonna be OK. And, it gives me a reason to open up the SMR every month, and check on these boards every day, and talk to you folk, and so it's right by me. Can you tell that Cutty was on sale this week?
"Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well."
ctsox - That's sad. Greedy adults always find away to muck it up for kids. It reminds me of those selfish adults art ballparks who thoughtlessly shove kids aside to get to a foul ball.
Anyway, it's been thoughtful and fun reading all the various opinions here. Me? I gotta hit it.
Thanks for the cheap (free) entertainment all.
Football collector 1948-1995, Rams oddball cards & memorabilia, Diamond match. Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variationsUpdated 2/13/05
<< <i>Now, I have a case coming next week, because - I can, and I like the product. >>
CT Is that basketball? What was the cost per pack?
On the NTC day - thankfully there were very positive reports also in SCD. But the bad will resound a lot longer.
As a key element in this discussion - and this has been said many times - the Hobby needs modern collectors or there will be no vintage in the future to talk about.
The old adage: collect what you like? It took me years and years to find a comfort zone. Nothing about the hobby bothers me anymore with respect to this kind of talk. What does bother me are fakes, counterfeits, scams etc.
I agree Mike, it is of no consequence to me if the future holds no buyers for my cards. I bought them cuz I am a collector. I bought PSA graded for the peace of mind knowing that they were not trimmed etc, and for the fun that the registry gives as well.
I would though be just as happy with a raw set in near mint. but where would I get the cards? if i was to buy a completed set raw it would contain cards that I would not be happy with. buying 1 card at a time via ebay fave me some enjoyment as well as the peace of mind.
I have sets that are raw, most notably a 52 bowman set in ex a 55 topps set in ex a 61 set in ex/ex/mnt and a near mint 75 set. I have those sets cuz i like the way they look and had fun building them. some bring back memeories others (52 and 61) cuz i liked the style. we all collect for different reasons. no one reason is right just as no one reason is wrong.
<< <i>Is that basketball? What was the cost per pack? >>
Mike - yes, it is the UD Exquisite basketball product that so many people either love or hate. I believe SRP per 5 card "pack" (actually a wooden box) is $500, and three pack/boxes come in a case. But, prices rose on this stuff right out of the gate, and packs are somewhere between $600-$700 right now, and sealed cases are a bit over $2,000. Of the 15 cards in a case, you hope to get one or two big "hits" that will defray the cost of the case - at least I hope I do!
<< <i>Is that basketball? What was the cost per pack? >>
Mike - yes, it is the UD Exquisite basketball product that so many people either love or hate. I believe SRP per 5 card "pack" (actually a wooden box) is $500, and three pack/boxes come in a case. But, prices rose on this stuff right out of the gate, and packs are somewhere between $600-$700 right now, and sealed cases are a bit over $2,000. Of the 15 cards in a case, you hope to get one or two big "hits" that will defray the cost of the case - at least I hope I do! >>
I look forward to your posts/scans this year again!
It was enjoyable. I think you did good on a few products last year if memory serves?
<< <i>I agree Mike, it is of no consequence to me if the future holds no buyers for my cards. I bought them cuz I am a collector. I bought PSA graded for the peace of mind knowing that they were not trimmed etc, and for the fun that the registry gives as well.
I would though be just as happy with a raw set in near mint. but where would I get the cards? if i was to buy a completed set raw it would contain cards that I would not be happy with. buying 1 card at a time via ebay fave me some enjoyment as well as the peace of mind.
I have sets that are raw, most notably a 52 bowman set in ex a 55 topps set in ex a 61 set in ex/ex/mnt and a near mint 75 set. I have those sets cuz i like the way they look and had fun building them. some bring back memeories others (52 and 61) cuz i liked the style. we all collect for different reasons. no one reason is right just as no one reason is wrong.
sd >>
Right on Steve And on the PSA peace of mind thing - if I buy a nice PSA 8 63F common for 25 bucks on ebay - if I go to a show and a guy has a bunch of raw to sell? They are going to want very similar prices!
In Houston this past winter, I found that little deal out with a guy - I want to say was called Kirk's Cards out of CO? Nice raw, slightly overgraded in spots - relatively hi prices - not interested in dealin much.
Yes, I occasionally did - a case of Leaf Certified baseball was great for me last year! I am still kicking myself for not getting a case of UD Exquisite last year (over $4500 a case now), so I bit the bullet. Case will be here early next week, and I will certainly list my results with scans...
bowdowntome, maybe my example of heritage wasn't a perfect fit, but the reason i suggested it was because it is collected mostly for the base set. invariably you'll end up with 5 of the same card so much of the thrill of it comes from trading sp’s. most of the set consists of easy to find cards, and the rest consists of sp's - the sp's are not expensive, but are just scarce enough to add a challenge. retail is 2.50 a pack...
The main problem I see in terms of the value of sportscard products is the decline in rookie prospectors and, to a lesser degree, set collectors. When the hobby was at its peak in the late 80's, tons of people were hording rookie cards so packs back then had tremendous value. Sure, they were cheaper, but that's not the point. They had value only because their contents (the cards) were in demand. If there had been less cards produced, the demand for the cards would have been even higher, meaning the packs would still have been a good buy at a higher price.
Then everybody found out that you can't stuff modern rookie cards in a closet for twenty years and come out ahead, and a lot of rookie prospectors left the hobby. Now the ratio of card collectors/investors to pack busters has decreased, making the prices of packs out of whack in relation to their contents. It's the same thing with 80's vintage wax - collectors will pay a ton for the thrill of ripping but the demand is relatively low for the actual cards.
So how can they make cards hot again? I'm not sure, but I think the new rule restricting baseball rookie cards to those in the major leagues will help. Most folks don't follow minor league squads except those within their favorite teams' farm system.
I do see a large untapped market among all the couch potato gm's out there who spend hours daily posting on team messageboards or managing fantasy teams in an effort to prove their superiority of knowledge. The lengths a lot of these guys go to are quite amazing. Maybe if there were some feature articles in a rag like SI about a few folks who had participated in rookie prospecting with some success, then they could get those guys' competitive juices flowing in that direction. If you're a sports fan, it really is a fun way to try and make money on the side, even if looking at pictures of athletes on cardboard doesn't particularly float your boat. They might not come out ahead, but what percentage of people actually come out ahead in fantasy leagues? It wouldn't hurt to try and put some marketing in the fantasy geek mags that are always out there. I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for sports cards in a normal publication.
The bottom line though is that the secondary market is going to have to strengthen for the card companies to have substantial gains; they're going to have to increase the size of the pie and not just focus on satisfying those already in it.
Many times whenever a company tries to create a HOT collectable it has the opposite effect.
collectors will collect what they like. investors will invest in whatever they feel they can make profit on. be it stocks or rookie baseball cards.
the card company's with the help of MLB and the MLBPA all had their greed come back to haunt them. The Card company's paid those ridiculous fee's to them and then had to recoup their costs. Add those costs to the fact that they also had to satisfy shareholders etc and wah la you have insert craze's and created rarities of 1/ofs. All of them have no one to blame but themselves.
Collect what you like, not what you think will have value down the road. be it vintage/ modern etc.
I think first off everyone needs to define what the "hobby dying" means to them, because it appears there are differences of opinions on this definition. I'm thinking of the HOBBY in general, overall terms, while others refer to the hobby as it only relates to them. If the hobby dies, will we recognize it?
20 years from now, most of the products that have been produced up until then will still be out there and available for people to collect, so there will be things to buy. But will there be enough collectors to buy them?
To me, it starts and ends with the collectors, young and old. Without them the hobby IS dead, despite the fact that there will be billions of cards out there. As collectors slowly leave the hobby, via dying themselves, there needs to be a new crop of collectors to take their place after them. I don't see that happening right now. We as adults choose not to see this happening because WE are still collecting and all is good. As long as WE are still collecting, the hobby is alive and well. Well, it's not. I do in fact see the hobby dying as we speak. Fewer collectors means a dying hobby. Will it be completely dead? Probably not. As long as there are cards to buy, and there is at least 1 person willing to buy them, then there is a hobby.
Some people say that Beanie Babies are dead. They may not be as popular as they were for a short bit of time, but hey, someone somewhere is buynig them I'll bet, therefore it's not completely dead.
As the collector base declines, which it is, card cmopanies will have a tougher time making a profit, which they are. This trend will continue until whichever card companies that are still alive figure out how to still make a profit even with a declining customer base.
All this has NOTHING to do with whether or not our cards will be valuable in the future. Values go up and down, especially on the secondary market, and it doesn't seem to matter how many people are in the hobby or not. There will always be someone with too much money willing to pay more for something.
In short, if the young people of today aren't getting involved in the hobby, it will continue to decline. When todays adult collectors are no longer able to take those trips down memory lane, and reliving their childhoods, then interest in the vintage stuff will also decline.
Young collectors don't want vintage, and as of right now, they don't seem to want modern either. So goes the future of the hobby.
Too bad to, because it use to be that parents got their kids involved in hobbies as a means to keep them out of trouble. Nowadays, nobody seems to care about the kids, only themselves.
Football collector 1948-1995, Rams oddball cards & memorabilia, Diamond match. Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variationsUpdated 2/13/05
<< <i>Too bad to, because it use to be that parents got their kids involved in hobbies as a means to keep them out of trouble. Nowadays, nobody seems to care about the kids, only themselves. >>
I got back into the hobby because my son asked me if he could get some baseball cards. I, of course said, "Sure" and all he77 broke loose.
My son is not all that interested in them anymore but still likes to look at them.
One thing he does like is the Yugi-oh cards, he and his friends trade these. They love them. Just take a look at Walmart or Target or Toys-R-Us, the overwhelming majority of cards there are Yugi-oh, or some form of it. My son stores his Yugi-oh cards the same way I did my BB cards as a kid, in a shoebox or bag.
I think that kids' interests have changed, too. 40 or 50 years ago there weren't any video games to play indoors when it rains. You had BB cards.
So I don't think that the card collecting hobby is dead, it is just changing.
"interesting............again i repeat, why can't kids collect just the base set and be happy? I sure would be."
Hi Steve-
The reason has to do with the fact that nobody-- and it doesn't matter if you're nine or ninety-- wants to pour blood, sweat and tears into a bottom rung collection. When I first started collecting, at the age of 13 in 1985, I wanted three things; Gooden rookies, Alvin Davis rookies, and Mark Langston rookies. Why? Because these were the cards that were HOT, and that other people would envy. I did not want a sack of '81 commons, or a complete run of '83 Diamond Kings. And the same holds true now. If I was 13 I sure as hell wouldn't want a bunch of Topps Ichiro RC's when I knew the SPX was out there somewhere. It's just no fun to collect lower-end stuff; which is why nobody here is putting together a '72 set in PSA 6. The urge to own 'the good stuff' knows no age-- it's just part of who we, as Americans, are.
The art of being a collector: Collect items that YOU like that you can brag about to friends (how much they'd bring on eBay, etc.) but, when offered to sell, NEVER sell!!!
I see this discussion going in different directions and is driven by ONE factor: POV.
There are two basic points of view:
1. The *collector
2. The *collector/investor
The collector is driven by personal interest.
The collector/investor is driven by what they can receive in the end ($).
Fact: We will never be able to come to a mutual conclusion since these two groups are, by definition, at odds with each other.
Now some are going to say, I just want what I'm collecting to worth something in the end - I'm NOT really investing. Well, yes and no. People who collect different color rocks enjoy it and expect nothing but the joy of finding another colored rock.
Fact: a lot of the "tension" that comes from these discussions is predicated on the fact that people have the perception that they are/will lose money on their cards. A collector doesn't care. The value and reward is in the completion of the set - not a monetary return.
This is my starting point - does anyone want to agree or disagree with this starting point? It does affect the discussion.
<< <i>Too bad to, because it use to be that parents got their kids involved in hobbies as a means to keep them out of trouble. Nowadays, nobody seems to care about the kids, only themselves. >>
I got back into the hobby because my son asked me if he could get some baseball cards. I, of course said, "Sure" and all he77 broke loose.
My son is not all that interested in them anymore but still likes to look at them.
One thing he does like is the Yugi-oh cards, he and his friends trade these. They love them. Just take a look at Walmart or Target or Toys-R-Us, the overwhelming majority of cards there are Yugi-oh, or some form of it. My son stores his Yugi-oh cards the same way I did my BB cards as a kid, in a shoebox or bag.
I think that kids' interests have changed, too. 40 or 50 years ago there weren't any video games to play indoors when it rains. You had BB cards.
So I don't think that the card collecting hobby is dead, it is just changing. >>
No, not dead, dying a slow death though.
What, no Magic-The Gathering cards? All these "cartooony" types of cards are fleeting. There is a brief HOT spell before the next big thing comes along.
Youngsters from 10 years ago, who collected Pogs wildly back then, are not collecting them as adults, nobody is. They enjoyed a very short period of interest and ***POOOF*** they were gone. Same thing will happen with Yugi-Oh, and all the others.
I'm willing to bet that when your son is in his adult years, there will be a higher probability that he will collect sports cards over Yugi-oh, simply because you did plant the seed of interest already. LIke most collectors, that seed will lie dormant for a while and in time the interest will be sparked again. That's all that needs to be done, is to plant the seed, and let it fester.
Football collector 1948-1995, Rams oddball cards & memorabilia, Diamond match. Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variationsUpdated 2/13/05
In my opinion, the hobby can rejunivate itself (i.e., among kids and families) is to get rid of the "lottery" mentality that has been so pervasive in the yearly issues since 1993. This has become a legalized yet unethical form of gambling for minors. We have always looked for the cards we wanted in each pack but now it is taken to such an extreme that it has become the sole focus of collecting. Do away with the inserts, contrived rare cards, extra shiny sh!t cards and stuff and just put out quality base cards to build sets. In the short term, the market will decline but it will correct itself. For the long term, a solid base will be developed that can extend well into adulthood.
But there is something about the Magic/Yu-gi-Oh cards that is refreshing. It has nothing to do with condition or price guide, but solely on the value you put on the cards in relation to your deck. My stepson used to go to local tournaments and the amount of trading done - without prices or price guides - is astounding. Just like it used to be in sports. Maybe there is a lesson there.
<< <i>But there is something about the Magic/Yu-gi-Oh cards that is refreshing. It has nothing to do with condition or price guide, but solely on the value you put on the cards in relation to your deck. My stepson used to go to local tournaments and the amount of trading done - without prices or price guides - is astounding. Just like it used to be in sports. Maybe there is a lesson there. >>
<< <i>Jeff was just furious at the prices. He felt that (collecting) was a hobby and not a business. Inserts were given away and not meant to be sold.... >>
In this case the word "insert" refers to any card that is given away with the product - gum, cigarettes, candy etc.
So what year is this - mid to late 80s when it all started to heat up....no, the 90s when the presses exploded and guys were buying cards by the case to put away to fund their retirement homes?
No, this is a quote by Jefferson Burdick to Lionel Carter in 1960 about the state of the hobby. He was furious with anyone that asked ridiculous "buy" prices to complete their sets back in the 50s!
I provide this as perspective on the worries about the state of the hobby.
Stone 193 is right about the collector/investor now days.
I use to be a collector, now I am a collector/investor. That's because I started collecting in 1986 at the age of 8. My cards came from the pharmacy,drugstore, but not a card shop. Then I discovered cardshops a couple of years later. With that came the price guides. I always use to look at the price quides, but I cared more about the cards than the money.( I think I did! LOL)
But the prices were a lot cheaper. Plus I was a kid, so I didn't have a paycheck coming in. The problem now for me is that I have enough money to buy more than I should. Do I really need 15 different football sets?? No. So why do I buy them? Well some of its' because I like to crack wax and make sets. That part is ok. I get in trouble though when I start wondering where's my auto in this box? Or this is a "junk" auto and get upset. So I believe I like to collect cards and break wax. But I also think I can get lucky and get high priced auto's etc.
So I am part of the problem. I have become a collector/investor. As such I see the hobby dying and see that spending so much as a collector/investor is probably not wise.
If the card companies ever start selling directly to the public on a large scale basis, then the hobby will hurt even more. True you can buy boxes from some of the card companies off their websites, but usually their prices are a lot more than Ebay and more than cardshops. If they lowered their prices, the shops would go under.
On another note, good to see that a lot of people have chimed in about this topic.
Running an Ebay store sure takes a lot more time than a person would think!
King No. In that I don't see your POV as a problem but rather part of the phenomena of collecting.
That's why I posted the comments by Burdick who is, for all purposes, the "Father of Card Collecting" and responsible for the first real publication on cards - the American Card Catalog - when you see the "T" or "E" or "W" series cards, think of old Jeff.
Burdick was the original writer/editor of The Card Collectors Bulletin which he started in 1937, making Burdick the first hobby publisher.
The hobby is dynamic not static - constantly evolving, shifting, changing - and as the cliche goes: the more things change....the more they stay the same.
Look for changes by the card companies, curse their apparent avarice but celebrate the hobby for all that it is - investors or collectors - part time or full time - for fun or for business - there's room for all.
The hobby takes in everything that's dished out and survives in it's own wake of apparent disaster!
<< <i>So I believe I like to collect cards and break wax. But I also think I can get lucky and get high priced auto's etc. >>
It's not just you - I am the same way. We are conditioned now to hope for the "big hit" that could be inside the very next pack we rip. And why is this? Maybe, at some point, the card companies felt their cards and base sets weren't good enough to sustain sales and interest, so they gave buyers something to "chase". Now, the chase is better than the catch (that was a song, I think!) most of the time, and base sets go into the trash. I hope we can get back to plain old set collecting, and base cards being good enough - but I can't see how at this point.
I don't necessarily agree that having a large number of varied sets is a bad thing. Who says you have to collect it all?
Topps has some great ideas with the heritage and fan favorites sets. As was mentioned, you don't HAVE to collect the chromes and inserts. But I think if you instill in your kid that those are 'needed' to complete the set, or somehow the chase cards are more important than the base set, of course they are going to think the base cards are junk.
For $20 getting 8 packs is a great value, given the quality and appeal of the cards of this set.
If you think you are dragging your kids to the hobby store, have you thought to find out why? Have you taken them to a game, or sat down with them and given them your complete attention and watched a game on tv? I'd think watching a game and teaching them how to keep score would be great fun.
If you think that overpriced and insert cards are what's keeping kids away - I'd be curious to find out why they feel that way?
I don't often post but I do really enjoy reading these boards - you guys are great!!! That being said, this thread sparked my interest and I just felt the need to chime in myself. I collected baseball cards back in the day (1977-1993) and it was fun, but eventually I burned out on it and moved on. I think much of this had to do with the glut of card issues, and later, the baseball strike.
During this time I also collected nonsports cards, and I enjoyed that too. In 1993 a game called Magic: The Gathering came out, and I fell in love with it. I started collecting those cards with a passion and I still do to this day. I think Stone and others are right when they say people collect what they like, regardless of popularity. Perhaps some of these "cartoony" collectibles fade with time, but that doesn't mean people don't still enjoy collecting them. There are many people collecting Magic cards, or Mars Attacks, Horrors of War, even Yu-Gi-Oh cards. They collect them for the same reasons people collect sportscards; the thrill of the chase, the need for completion, the beauty of the cards, the memories of days gone by, the community of fellow collectors, etc.
Will the hobby die? I don't think so. As long as there are cards to collect and people who want them, there will be a hobby. Over time the dynamics might change, but there will probably always be some card collectors. These boards are a great way to keep in touch with fellow enthusiasts and share our passions, be they Goudy's, 78 Topps, cut autographs, or Micky Mantle rookies in our neighbors attics
Take it easy, Jared
"You consider me the young apprentice, Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes, Hypnotized by you if I should linger, Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
"In my opinion, the hobby can rejunivate itself (i.e., among kids and families) is to get rid of the "lottery" mentality that has been so pervasive in the yearly issues since 1993. This has become a legalized yet unethical form of gambling for minors."
Well I do gamble legally in NV sometimes, and I buy lotto tickets. So cards are probably another form of gambling. But with most of the other forms of gambling the losing ticket is worthless, at least your commons could yield $1 for 100ct or something.
Running an Ebay store sure takes a lot more time than a person would think!
Comments
OK if anybody has deciphered the long rambling paragraph above, I commend you
Yes, I collect shiny modern crap
All your Shaq are belong to me
The card industry does need to keep things interesting for kids though - and they aren't doing a very good job. Greed always messes it up. Take for example last years National Trading Card Day - how long was it before dealers were selling the "free" cards on Ebay (some even graded them!)? I remember reading a letter in SCD about a father who took his son to a shop that day, and they told him they were out of the free cards (very early in the morning). It just seems like we may never get back to the "days of innocence" when cards were just cards we collected, traded, flipped, whatever...now, cards are money making vehicles for too many folks, and that prevents many people from getting simple pure enjoyment from the cards.
<< <i>The problem, I think, is that it's late, and we're all tired, and as a result we're all probably talking about different things. >>
In a more perfect world, we'd work on our collections when we were fresh, and do our real jobs when we were tired. I do think that there's a mixture of guys on the boards, some who seek to make a profit, and some who collect for enjoyment. It's all good. But, I'm a-lovin' it, and sure hope the "hobby" keeps going for a while longer. Collecting has been going on forever, and, IMHO, there's no reason why it won't keep going on. PSA, right or wrong, has set standards, and (hopefully) there will always be fewer 10s than 9s, etc., which seems OK by me. Someone should make that decision, and personally, I would rather see more standardization than otherwise. And, let the market decide--if a 9 is worth twice an 8, then so it shall be. There are modern players I like, but I seem to be attracted more to the "vintage" players, so it's their stuff I want. If I were 40 years younger, I would think differently. I'm not concerned about it. As long as I keep under the "wife radar" with my buying, I'm gonna be OK. And, it gives me a reason to open up the SMR every month, and check on these boards every day, and talk to you folk, and so it's right by me. Can you tell that Cutty was on sale this week?
Anyway, it's been thoughtful and fun reading all the various opinions here. Me? I gotta hit it.
Thanks for the cheap (free) entertainment all.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
im sure she is keeping her shoe buying under your radar too! hehe
<< <i>Now, I have a case coming next week, because - I can, and I like the product. >>
CT
Is that basketball? What was the cost per pack?
On the NTC day - thankfully there were very positive reports also in SCD. But the bad will resound a lot longer.
As a key element in this discussion - and this has been said many times - the Hobby needs modern collectors or there will be no vintage in the future to talk about.
The old adage: collect what you like? It took me years and years to find a comfort zone. Nothing about the hobby bothers me anymore with respect to this kind of talk. What does bother me are fakes, counterfeits, scams etc.
mike
<< <i> As long as I keep under the "wife radar"
im sure she is keeping her shoe buying under your radar too! hehe >>
And what about the freakin' make up and trips to the hair stylist!
<< <i>And what about the freakin' make up and trips to the hair stylist! >>
Yeah!!! And getting the eyebrows waxed!!!! I've got a 79 cent pair of tweezers here, honey!!!
I would though be just as happy with a raw set in near mint. but where would I get the cards? if i was to buy a completed set raw it would contain cards that I would not be happy with. buying 1 card at a time via ebay fave me some enjoyment as well as the peace of mind.
I have sets that are raw, most notably a 52 bowman set in ex a 55 topps set in ex a 61 set in ex/ex/mnt and a near mint 75 set. I have those sets cuz i like the way they look and had fun building them. some bring back memeories others (52 and 61) cuz i liked the style. we all collect for different reasons. no one reason is right just as no one reason is wrong.
sd
<< <i>CT >>
<< <i>Is that basketball? What was the cost per pack? >>
Mike - yes, it is the UD Exquisite basketball product that so many people either love or hate. I believe SRP per 5 card "pack" (actually a wooden box) is $500, and three pack/boxes come in a case. But, prices rose on this stuff right out of the gate, and packs are somewhere between $600-$700 right now, and sealed cases are a bit over $2,000. Of the 15 cards in a case, you hope to get one or two big "hits" that will defray the cost of the case - at least I hope I do!
<< <i>
<< <i>And what about the freakin' make up and trips to the hair stylist! >>
Yeah!!! And getting the eyebrows waxed!!!! I've got a 79 cent pair of tweezers here, honey!!! >>
At least WE have something to pass on to our children! I don't think anyone wants grandma's smelly shoes!
<< <i>
<< <i>CT >>
<< <i>Is that basketball? What was the cost per pack? >>
Mike - yes, it is the UD Exquisite basketball product that so many people either love or hate. I believe SRP per 5 card "pack" (actually a wooden box) is $500, and three pack/boxes come in a case. But, prices rose on this stuff right out of the gate, and packs are somewhere between $600-$700 right now, and sealed cases are a bit over $2,000. Of the 15 cards in a case, you hope to get one or two big "hits" that will defray the cost of the case - at least I hope I do! >>
I look forward to your posts/scans this year again!
It was enjoyable. I think you did good on a few products last year if memory serves?
Just lay those scans on us!
mike
<< <i>I agree Mike, it is of no consequence to me if the future holds no buyers for my cards. I bought them cuz I am a collector. I bought PSA graded for the peace of mind knowing that they were not trimmed etc, and for the fun that the registry gives as well.
I would though be just as happy with a raw set in near mint. but where would I get the cards? if i was to buy a completed set raw it would contain cards that I would not be happy with. buying 1 card at a time via ebay fave me some enjoyment as well as the peace of mind.
I have sets that are raw, most notably a 52 bowman set in ex a 55 topps set in ex a 61 set in ex/ex/mnt and a near mint 75 set. I have those sets cuz i like the way they look and had fun building them. some bring back memeories others (52 and 61) cuz i liked the style. we all collect for different reasons. no one reason is right just as no one reason is wrong.
sd >>
Right on Steve
And on the PSA peace of mind thing - if I buy a nice PSA 8 63F common for 25 bucks on ebay - if I go to a show and a guy has a bunch of raw to sell? They are going to want very similar prices!
In Houston this past winter, I found that little deal out with a guy - I want to say was called Kirk's Cards out of CO? Nice raw, slightly overgraded in spots - relatively hi prices - not interested in dealin much.
mike
bowdowntome, maybe my example of heritage wasn't a perfect fit, but the reason i suggested it was because it is collected mostly for the base set. invariably you'll end up with 5 of the same card so much of the thrill of it comes from trading sp’s. most of the set consists of easy to find cards, and the rest consists of sp's - the sp's are not expensive, but are just scarce enough to add a challenge. retail is 2.50 a pack...
brian
Then everybody found out that you can't stuff modern rookie cards in a closet for twenty years and come out ahead, and a lot of rookie prospectors left the hobby. Now the ratio of card collectors/investors to pack busters has decreased, making the prices of packs out of whack in relation to their contents. It's the same thing with 80's vintage wax - collectors will pay a ton for the thrill of ripping but the demand is relatively low for the actual cards.
So how can they make cards hot again? I'm not sure, but I think the new rule restricting baseball rookie cards to those in the major leagues will help. Most folks don't follow minor league squads except those within their favorite teams' farm system.
I do see a large untapped market among all the couch potato gm's out there who spend hours daily posting on team messageboards or managing fantasy teams in an effort to prove their superiority of knowledge. The lengths a lot of these guys go to are quite amazing. Maybe if there were some feature articles in a rag like SI about a few folks who had participated in rookie prospecting with some success, then they could get those guys' competitive juices flowing in that direction. If you're a sports fan, it really is a fun way to try and make money on the side, even if looking at pictures of athletes on cardboard doesn't particularly float your boat. They might not come out ahead, but what percentage of people actually come out ahead in fantasy leagues? It wouldn't hurt to try and put some marketing in the fantasy geek mags that are always out there. I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for sports cards in a normal publication.
The bottom line though is that the secondary market is going to have to strengthen for the card companies to have substantial gains; they're going to have to increase the size of the pie and not just focus on satisfying those already in it.
Many times whenever a company tries to create a HOT collectable it has the opposite effect.
collectors will collect what they like. investors will invest in whatever they feel they can make profit on. be it stocks or rookie baseball cards.
the card company's with the help of MLB and the MLBPA all had their greed come back to haunt them. The Card company's paid those ridiculous fee's to them and then had to recoup their costs. Add those costs to the fact that they also had to satisfy shareholders etc and wah la you have insert craze's and created rarities of 1/ofs. All of them have no one to blame but themselves.
Collect what you like, not what you think will have value down the road. be it vintage/ modern etc.
JMHO
Steve
20 years from now, most of the products that have been produced up until then will still be out there and available for people to collect, so there will be things to buy. But will there be enough collectors to buy them?
To me, it starts and ends with the collectors, young and old. Without them the hobby IS dead, despite the fact that there will be billions of cards out there. As collectors slowly leave the hobby, via dying themselves, there needs to be a new crop of collectors to take their place after them. I don't see that happening right now. We as adults choose not to see this happening because WE are still collecting and all is good. As long as WE are still collecting, the hobby is alive and well. Well, it's not. I do in fact see the hobby dying as we speak. Fewer collectors means a dying hobby. Will it be completely dead? Probably not. As long as there are cards to buy, and there is at least 1 person willing to buy them, then there is a hobby.
Some people say that Beanie Babies are dead. They may not be as popular as they were for a short bit of time, but hey, someone somewhere is buynig them I'll bet, therefore it's not completely dead.
As the collector base declines, which it is, card cmopanies will have a tougher time making a profit, which they are. This trend will continue until whichever card companies that are still alive figure out how to still make a profit even with a declining customer base.
All this has NOTHING to do with whether or not our cards will be valuable in the future. Values go up and down, especially on the secondary market, and it doesn't seem to matter how many people are in the hobby or not. There will always be someone with too much money willing to pay more for something.
In short, if the young people of today aren't getting involved in the hobby, it will continue to decline. When todays adult collectors are no longer able to take those trips down memory lane, and reliving their childhoods, then interest in the vintage stuff will also decline.
Young collectors don't want vintage, and as of right now, they don't seem to want modern either. So goes the future of the hobby.
Too bad to, because it use to be that parents got their kids involved in hobbies as a means to keep them out of trouble. Nowadays, nobody seems to care about the kids, only themselves.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
<< <i>Too bad to, because it use to be that parents got their kids involved in hobbies as a means to keep them out of trouble. Nowadays, nobody seems to care about the kids, only themselves. >>
I got back into the hobby because my son asked me if he could get some baseball cards. I, of course said, "Sure" and all he77 broke loose.
My son is not all that interested in them anymore but still likes to look at them.
One thing he does like is the Yugi-oh cards, he and his friends trade these. They love them. Just take a look at Walmart or Target or Toys-R-Us, the overwhelming majority of cards there are Yugi-oh, or some form of it. My son stores his Yugi-oh cards the same way I did my BB cards as a kid, in a shoebox or bag.
I think that kids' interests have changed, too. 40 or 50 years ago there weren't any video games to play indoors when it rains. You had BB cards.
So I don't think that the card collecting hobby is dead, it is just changing.
Well said, sir. Well said.
Hi Steve-
The reason has to do with the fact that nobody-- and it doesn't matter if you're nine or ninety-- wants to pour blood, sweat and tears into a bottom rung collection. When I first started collecting, at the age of 13 in 1985, I wanted three things; Gooden rookies, Alvin Davis rookies, and Mark Langston rookies. Why? Because these were the cards that were HOT, and that other people would envy. I did not want a sack of '81 commons, or a complete run of '83 Diamond Kings. And the same holds true now. If I was 13 I sure as hell wouldn't want a bunch of Topps Ichiro RC's when I knew the SPX was out there somewhere. It's just no fun to collect lower-end stuff; which is why nobody here is putting together a '72 set in PSA 6. The urge to own 'the good stuff' knows no age-- it's just part of who we, as Americans, are.
There are two basic points of view:
1. The *collector
2. The *collector/investor
The collector is driven by personal interest.
The collector/investor is driven by what they can receive in the end ($).
Fact: We will never be able to come to a mutual conclusion since these two groups are, by definition, at odds with each other.
Now some are going to say, I just want what I'm collecting to worth something in the end - I'm NOT really investing. Well, yes and no. People who collect different color rocks enjoy it and expect nothing but the joy of finding another colored rock.
Fact: a lot of the "tension" that comes from these discussions is predicated on the fact that people have the perception that they are/will lose money on their cards. A collector doesn't care. The value and reward is in the completion of the set - not a monetary return.
This is my starting point - does anyone want to agree or disagree with this starting point? It does affect the discussion.
mike
<< <i>
<< <i>Too bad to, because it use to be that parents got their kids involved in hobbies as a means to keep them out of trouble. Nowadays, nobody seems to care about the kids, only themselves. >>
I got back into the hobby because my son asked me if he could get some baseball cards. I, of course said, "Sure" and all he77 broke loose.
My son is not all that interested in them anymore but still likes to look at them.
One thing he does like is the Yugi-oh cards, he and his friends trade these. They love them. Just take a look at Walmart or Target or Toys-R-Us, the overwhelming majority of cards there are Yugi-oh, or some form of it. My son stores his Yugi-oh cards the same way I did my BB cards as a kid, in a shoebox or bag.
I think that kids' interests have changed, too. 40 or 50 years ago there weren't any video games to play indoors when it rains. You had BB cards.
So I don't think that the card collecting hobby is dead, it is just changing. >>
No, not dead, dying a slow death though.
What, no Magic-The Gathering cards? All these "cartooony" types of cards are fleeting. There is a brief HOT spell before the next big thing comes along.
Youngsters from 10 years ago, who collected Pogs wildly back then, are not collecting them as adults, nobody is. They enjoyed a very short period of interest and ***POOOF*** they were gone. Same thing will happen with Yugi-Oh, and all the others.
I'm willing to bet that when your son is in his adult years, there will be a higher probability that he will collect sports cards over Yugi-oh, simply because you did plant the seed of interest already. LIke most collectors, that seed will lie dormant for a while and in time the interest will be sparked again. That's all that needs to be done, is to plant the seed, and let it fester.
Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
<< <i>But there is something about the Magic/Yu-gi-Oh cards that is refreshing. It has nothing to do with condition or price guide, but solely on the value you put on the cards in relation to your deck. My stepson used to go to local tournaments and the amount of trading done - without prices or price guides - is astounding. Just like it used to be in sports. Maybe there is a lesson there. >>
I never thought of it that way...
That's cool.
Click here to view my Knickstars collection and wantlist
<< <i>Jeff was just furious at the prices. He felt that (collecting) was a hobby and not a business. Inserts were given away and not meant to be sold.... >>
In this case the word "insert" refers to any card that is given away with the product - gum, cigarettes, candy etc.
So what year is this - mid to late 80s when it all started to heat up....no, the 90s when the presses exploded and guys were buying cards by the case to put away to fund their retirement homes?
No, this is a quote by Jefferson Burdick to Lionel Carter in 1960 about the state of the hobby. He was furious with anyone that asked ridiculous "buy" prices to complete their sets back in the 50s!
I provide this as perspective on the worries about the state of the hobby.
mike
I use to be a collector, now I am a collector/investor. That's because I started collecting in 1986 at the age of 8. My cards came from the pharmacy,drugstore, but not a card shop. Then I discovered cardshops a couple of years later. With that came the price guides. I always use to look at the price quides, but I cared more about the cards than the money.( I think I did! LOL)
But the prices were a lot cheaper. Plus I was a kid, so I didn't have a paycheck coming in. The problem now for me is that I have enough money to buy more than I should. Do I really need 15 different football sets?? No. So why do I buy them? Well some of its' because I like to crack wax and make sets. That part is ok. I get in trouble though when I start wondering where's my auto in this box? Or this is a "junk" auto and get upset. So I believe I like to collect cards and break wax. But I also think I can get lucky and get high priced auto's etc.
So I am part of the problem. I have become a collector/investor. As such I see the hobby dying and see that spending so much as a collector/investor is probably not wise.
If the card companies ever start selling directly to the public on a large scale basis, then the hobby will hurt even more. True you can buy boxes from some of the card companies off their websites, but usually their prices are a lot more than Ebay and more than cardshops. If they lowered their prices, the shops would go under.
On another note, good to see that a lot of people have chimed in about this topic.
<< <i>So I am part of the problem >>
King
No. In that I don't see your POV as a problem but rather part of the phenomena of collecting.
That's why I posted the comments by Burdick who is, for all purposes, the "Father of Card Collecting" and responsible for the first real publication on cards - the American Card Catalog - when you see the "T" or "E" or "W" series cards, think of old Jeff.
Burdick was the original writer/editor of The Card Collectors Bulletin which he started in 1937, making Burdick the first hobby publisher.
The hobby is dynamic not static - constantly evolving, shifting, changing - and as the cliche goes: the more things change....the more they stay the same.
Look for changes by the card companies, curse their apparent avarice but celebrate the hobby for all that it is - investors or collectors - part time or full time - for fun or for business - there's room for all.
The hobby takes in everything that's dished out and survives in it's own wake of apparent disaster!
my thoughts before Chinese take-out!
<< <i>my thoughts before Chinese take-out! >>
Good choice!
<< <i>So I believe I like to collect cards and break wax. But I also think I can get lucky and get high priced auto's etc. >>
It's not just you - I am the same way. We are conditioned now to hope for the "big hit" that could be inside the very next pack we rip. And why is this? Maybe, at some point, the card companies felt their cards and base sets weren't good enough to sustain sales and interest, so they gave buyers something to "chase". Now, the chase is better than the catch (that was a song, I think!) most of the time, and base sets go into the trash. I hope we can get back to plain old set collecting, and base cards being good enough - but I can't see how at this point.
so, is the hobby dying? Only if there are not enough objects to complete your collection.
Link To Scanned 1952 Topps Cards Set is now 90% Complete Plus Slideshows of the 52 Set
That just about sums it up for me counselor, defense rests....
Julen
RIP GURU
Topps has some great ideas with the heritage and fan favorites sets. As was mentioned, you don't HAVE to collect the chromes and inserts. But I think if you instill in your kid that those are 'needed' to complete the set, or somehow the chase cards are more important than the base set, of course they are going to think the base cards are junk.
For $20 getting 8 packs is a great value, given the quality and appeal of the cards of this set.
If you think you are dragging your kids to the hobby store, have you thought to find out why? Have you taken them to a game, or sat down with them and given them your complete attention and watched a game on tv? I'd think watching a game and teaching them how to keep score would be great fun.
If you think that overpriced and insert cards are what's keeping kids away - I'd be curious to find out why they feel that way?
I don't often post but I do really enjoy reading these boards - you guys are great!!! That being said, this thread sparked my interest and I just felt the need to chime in myself. I collected baseball cards back in the day (1977-1993) and it was fun, but eventually I burned out on it and moved on. I think much of this had to do with the glut of card issues, and later, the baseball strike.
During this time I also collected nonsports cards, and I enjoyed that too. In 1993 a game called Magic: The Gathering came out, and I fell in love with it. I started collecting those cards with a passion and I still do to this day. I think Stone and others are right when they say people collect what they like, regardless of popularity. Perhaps some of these "cartoony" collectibles fade with time, but that doesn't mean people don't still enjoy collecting them. There are many people collecting Magic cards, or Mars Attacks, Horrors of War, even Yu-Gi-Oh cards. They collect them for the same reasons people collect sportscards; the thrill of the chase, the need for completion, the beauty of the cards, the memories of days gone by, the community of fellow collectors, etc.
Will the hobby die? I don't think so. As long as there are cards to collect and people who want them, there will be a hobby. Over time the dynamics might change, but there will probably always be some card collectors. These boards are a great way to keep in touch with fellow enthusiasts and share our passions, be they Goudy's, 78 Topps, cut autographs, or Micky Mantle rookies in our neighbors attics
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Jesus-- don't mention this to stevek.
<< <i>the "lottery" mentality >>
You mean like, ummm, putting $100 bills into packs?