Dying hobby??????

kingraider75

After the news that Fleer went bankrupt, then was bought out by UD, Topps losing 10% last quarter and Donruss losing it's MLB license; I wonder if the hobby will survive? I use to think there would be a die-hard hardcore collector base forever, probably still will, but I don't know about the long term prospects. Maybe the hobby will shrink back to the days of cards being at the large retail stores, pharmacies, etc; and all card shops and shows will vanish? The MLB people mentioned that they want more products aimed at kids, which is probably a good idea. I personally, rarely see kids at shows or shops, the prices are too expensive, and kids have other technology based interests. The hobby is also too much about money and not about fun a lot of times. However, some of us also make some purchases with the underlying thought that there is some monetary gain possible in the future. Been a depressing couple of months here in the hobby.

Donruss loses baseball license

Stone193

king
Good points and you may be correct about the contraction of the collecting populations.

Having said that, IMO, there will always be collectors.

Maybe less of them, less emphasis on investment, less shops, companies etc. But, collecting for many is an involuntary obsession - heck, I just like to collect things and display them. A lot of the stuff I collect/display costs next to nothing.

Just my thoughts
mike

calleocho

its a cyclical part of the hobby.

to someone who collected in the mid 30's with the incredible array of card makers, the late 50's with only one big card maker could have looked like the hobby was about to die.

and you have to remember all the fleer brands were bought out by UD...so technically they could still crank up 20 different sets anyways.

jrinck

The first thing I'll say in this matter is that if my son ever starts buying modern cards, he'll have to do it on his own, because he won't get any emotional or financial support from me. I've completely lost touch with the modern player. They are on such a different plane in life that us "normal" folks have absolutely nothing in common with them, and, for Christ's sake, they play a frickin game. Big heads. Big salaries. Big bling-bling. Other than hoping my son can command a nice salary in his chosen profession, there is absolutely no reason to want to own anything related to these people.

Besides, even if he DID want to buy modern, I highly doubt he'll waste his precious money on $50 packs of cards. "Gee, son, what are you going to do with your birthday money, buy an iPod and a hundred songs, or ten packs of baseball cards?"

baseballfanatic

Card collecting used to be about paying a nickel for 5 pieces of cardboard with a slab of gum which cost Topps less than a penny to make. I dont think anyone could fathom one day having a product "sold out" which lists for 500.00 to 1000.00 dollars per pack with super shiny cards, a piece of someones jersey embedded in a card and an autograph. Cards were made to sell and promote gum, candy, tobacco, hot dogs, potato chips and clothing. The core base of collecting was kids who bought the product,(or pleaded with thier parents) then chewed the gum, ate the hot dogs, and saved the cards in a shoebox. I dont care how many yards you mow in a week, or how many papers you deliver, not too many kids are going out and spending 75.00+ for a pack of cards. The entire market has been changed to gear towards people with extra large tons of cash to spend rather than kids. The cards they make for kids are pretty dissapointing because when a kid who WANTS to get started in collecting picks up a Beckett, he sees his UD Victory Ichiro Rookie is only worth 1.00. Not too much incentive for a kid who sees the other cards are going for 500.00 plus from the "limited" higher end sets. See how much a card shop will offer a kid for a handfull of UD Victory, Fleer, or regular Topps star cards.....

carew4me

<< <i>The first thing I'll say in this matter is that if my son ever starts buying modern cards, he'll have to do it on his own, because he won't get any emotional or financial support from me. I've completely lost touch with the modern player. They are on such a different plane in life that us "normal" folks have absolutely nothing in common with them, and, for Christ's sake, they play a frickin game. Big heads. Big salaries. Big bling-bling. Other than hoping my son can command a nice salary in his chosen profession, there is absolutely no reason to want to own anything related to these people.

Besides, even if he DID want to buy modern, I highly doubt he'll waste his precious money on $50 packs of cards. "Gee, son, what are you going to do with your birthday money, buy an iPod and a hundred songs, or ten packs of baseball cards?" >>







My 8 yr old could care less about baseball. Adults ruined the sport and the hobby for kids.

baseballfanatic

My 8 yr old could care less about baseball. Adults ruined the sport and the hobby for kids. >>



The story of the hobby in a nutshell..............

kingraider75

Card companies should go back to 50cents a pack product or maybe a dollar at most. Perhaps there should be 10 different baseball sets a year at a max. The more I think about the whole situation, the more depressing it is. I better go through my collection and sell off the doubles right now and probably anything else that isn't sentimental in value.

bowdowntome

Then and now:

Then - You, as a kid, begged your parents to take you to a card shop or card show. Your parents would patiently wait for you to finish shopping.
Now - You, as a parent, DRAG your kids with you to shows and shops, give them a Gameboy to keep them occupied while dad, mom (or both), shop.

Then - You could take your allowance, with the help of a small wagonload of pop bottles, and buy almost a whole box of cards, and spend hours of time opening, sorting, re-sorting, trading with friends, and generally having a ball.
Now - Your allowance, plus whatever else money you may have, won't buy alot of single packs of cards, which you carefully open, look for the BIG $$$ card, quickly place it in a plastic sleave, thow the rest of the cards in a box, and sit and wait for your INVESTMENT to mature.

Sports card collecting starts with kids. I'm willing to bet that the majority of the collectors reading this either sarted collecting at a youg age and picked it up again after a layoff, or started at a youg age and never stopped collecting. The point is, most every adult collector now, had some smattering of interest in collecting as a kid.
I don't see that happening today. Like someone else said, the overwhelming population of collectors at shows and shops are adults. That's great for dealers now, because adults spend more money. But where is the next generation of collectors going to come from? I'm willing to bet that 20 years from, when todays kids are old enough, have careers going on and excess cash, this hobby will be a shadow of what it is now.

In 35 years of collecting I've never met an adult collector who started collecting as an adult, who didn't at least give it a try as a kid.

As I see card companies going under, the natural response is "it's a bad thing". Maybe not. I've seen man ycard shops go out of business over the last 20 years or so. One of the common threads I've always heard from the owners is that they can't afford to carry all the different products, to satisfy all the different collectors. Everyone always made a big deal about how great it was to now have a choice of products to buy. Well ,that choice meant that dealers also had to choose, which left alot of collectors out in the cold. When Topss was the only game in town, you bought Topps or you didn't buy anything, and it was easy fr dealers to stock all the new Topps products. Today, the number of sets being put out is mind-boggling. In my 2005 Standared football catalog it states that in 1997 there were 66 different football sets, with 451 subsets! The number of sets jumped to 75 in 2000. Choice is nice, but that is ridiculous.

I would be willing to bet that if a few more card companies went under, and the ones that survived streamlined to manageable amounts of products, making only products that were affordable to KIDS and adults alike, that card shops would start showing up again...........if it isn't too late.

It's absolutely imperative to get kids involved in collecting cards as young as possible, not as an investment, as a FUN HOBBY.

And saying that there are lot's of products available, from the 90's, that kid's can afford, is not saying much. Kids today don't want to know about those OLD guys from the 90's. If they like sports, chances are they follow todays players, not the oldtimers.

Buccaneer

I am agreeing with an awful lot of stuff in this thread. Despite avidly following sports in the 1970s and 1980s (plus a few years here and there in the 1990s), today's sports have become unwatchable to me. Way too much macho, "i'm the man" crap with a tendency towards agressiveness and violence. It's not just baseball but all of the sports, including golf and tennis as well where POWER is name of the game, not finesse and sportsmanship. I think the card companies (along with the media) have promoted this as well where cards have to look powerful, aggressive and cutting edge. My 8 yr old son is into sports because he's a stats freak. Even though I dumped some of my Heritage star cards on him, it really doesn't mean too much to him. Today's youth is so bomarded with everything that's instant, loud, bright and aggressive. No need to have an attention span or do anything meaningful - something new and louder will come along in the next second.

NBAFan

Modern collectors are usually looking to turn their purchase around and make a quick buck, unlike in the past where collectors collected for fun. I used to collect for fun, but when I saw my entire collection keep dropping in value and I knew that after all I invested it was only going to end up going down further and there was no chance of it going back up, I got out of personal collecting. All they ever did was sit in protective holders in a box.

Ebay has really killed the card market. Prices are outrageous at times and other times are ridiculously low. Sure it is nice because you can find cards you are looking for, but it has killed the hobby.

Stone193

I agree with a lot of what has been said - my key addition:

One of the key events in the demise of the hobby was the slick "Madison avenue" production of the Price Guide.

When I was a kid we collected for fun - mostly team and player collectors.

Public enemy #1:



Now I know the cat's out of the bag and this is the 21st century and this is the way the hobby is today.
And all that stuff but perhaps the evolution is on. Or should I say devolution?

Another thing - Topps did try to engage the kids - around 1999 - 2000 they came out with a Dollar Pack - kids didn't want it! No 500 buck inserts, no cards that glow in the dark! No chromes dufex technology.

There's no way to make that tricky U turn back to the 50s where kids bought the gum and just collected the cards.

But as I said, there will always be collectors - maybe just less of them.

mike

DCICEMAN

I disagree that ebay has killed the hobby. In my opinion, it has elevated the hobby and brought back adults who collected as kids, who might never have gotten back into the hobby otherwise. We still have the problem of how to get kids interested in cards as we were when we were kids.

By the way, if you just collected for fun, why did it even matter if your "investment" went down in value?

Stone193

<< <i>By the way, if you just collected for fun, why did it even matter if your "investment" went down in value? >>


Good point DC

Public Enemy Number 2:

The introduction to the hobby of Investors in the late 80s!

mike

TheCARDKid

I don't think the hobby will ever collapse the way Beanie Babys did, or Cabbage Patch dolls. There's still alot of substance behind the product. Sports attendance, league popularity, and fan involvement are still very high (hockey remains the lone question mark).

I'd love to see the modern market return to its days in the early 90's. Things were still reasonable in 91/92/93. A mix of low, middle and high priced packs. Player collectors didn't have to chase an endless number of "1 of 1's" or other impossible cards to locate.

Like anything else, it goes it cycles. Hopefully we're near the absolute bottom....

bowdowntome

<< <i>
Another thing - Topps did try to engage the kids - around 1999 - 2000 they came out with a Dollar Pack - kids didn't want it! No 500 buck inserts, no cards that glow in the dark! No chromes dufex technology.

>>



I wouldn't exactly give them an A for effort.

Offering cheap packs to kids, while the grownups get to play with the expensive packs, is not the way to go. The only way it'll ever work is if these cadr companies make minimal different products that are affordable enough for kids, yet are appealing enough for adults.
In fact I'd go so far as to say that they should make ALL their products affordable for kids, and if adults wanna buy them too then fine. But if the adults only wanna play high stakes card collecting, then it'll never work and the hobby is on a fasttrack to failure.

I kind of enjoyed the Collectors Choice cards that Upper Deck came out with a few years ago. Inexpensive, but still nice looking enough, with a few insert chase cards, and still better quality than Topps back in the day. We need more of that and less of the 1/1 stuff, etc.....................................

I haven't been to many big shows in the last 15 years or so, do any of them have any special events for kids? Say, like, free giveaways to kids, or maybe a "collecting basics" class for kids. Or how about this? - How about a big room full of donated inexpensive cards where kids can get a free 500ct storage box and they can fill it up with whatever cards they want.

Do shows even do any kind of promotion geered towards getting kids involved?

I know it may not be much, but you gotta start somewhere.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>In 35 years of collecting I've never met an adult collector who started collecting as an adult, who didn't at least give it a try as a kid. >>




Good point. No way I would be interested in this hobby today, were it not for the great fun and memories I have of collecting as a young child. Everyone says it, but it bears repeating - without kids joining the hobby today, tommorrow will be bleak - at least for modern card companies.

And, Mike is also correct - the Beckett price guide, and the cult of speculators it has created, isn't helping anything either.

baseballfanatic

Even if Topps came out with a great product for kids, people would scarf it up and charge the kids 10 times what they paid for it. Its the nature of the beast in collecting anymore.............

Mac53

I don't think it's a bad thing that there are (more or less) standardized values placed on cards and other stuff, and that there's an easy marketplace for the cards (ebay). I think if anyone is investing in cards, they're probably nuts. There are cards, players, teams, and years that mean something to me, and I like knowing how much I should be paying to get them. I like just having them. And, it also makes me feel good, cretin that I am, when I hold one of my cards and think "this piece of cardboard is worth $xxxx." There's something in human nature that makes us want to possess that which is rare and desired. There's no real way of knowing what is "rare and desired" except by market price. Anyway, for whatever reason, I'm having fun, despite being out of the game for 40 some years. It may be cheaper to burn C-notes for heat, but I'm still having fun.

bowdowntome

Another thought.

For card shopping:
Shops are few and far between, shows are scattered and sparse, which leaves eBay, who is open 24-7. Sounds ideal, but technically you have to be 18 to use eBay, so that's another avenue closed to kids. Even if they wanted to collect them, where do they go to get them? Only store I can think of in this area that carries cards at all, is Wal-Mart................and what a great selection they have!

Kids get the shaft because the whole hobby is built around adults now.

tnfan67

Bowdown, your insights are fantastic. The point that kids want cards featuring today's players sure is valid in my house. My 13 year old wants to have cards of Shaq, LeBron and Carmello first and foremost. However, I have limited him to the so called "cheap" packs such as basic Topps and Bazooka. IMO, Topps deserves some credit for the Bazooka line. Last years basketball set was and is a great set to show aspiring young collectors. Bringing along younger collectors can be done! By the way, he never looks at price guides. I'm going to start ignoring them too. Thanks.

Robert

bowdowntome

<< <i>Even if Topps came out with a great product for kids, people would scarf it up and charge the kids 10 times what they paid for it. Its the nature of the beast in collecting anymore............. >>




Sad but true. But, there's gotta be ways around this as well. I mean, you don't see people scarfing up 1989 Topps baseball cards and marking them up to oblivion. There's gotta be a middle ground. They need to make a product that is cheap enough for kids, nice enough for adults, and in large enough quantities that won't clog the market, nor starve it. If a product is printed in sufficient quantities then there will be no need for adults to try and corner the market because everyone will be able to get the product at a retail level.............ideally, until the market eventually dries up.

Also, card companies should NOT listen to the whiney adults who complain about overproduction, just because they can't corner the market on something...........TUFF.

Stone193

<< <i>Kids get the shaft because the whole hobby is built around adults now. >>


bow
This is a good point.

There used to be two hobbies back in the days of Burdick and his posse. Meet the clan:



They collected primarily for fun - assigning minimal values to cards for the purpose of selling to each other where trades were not feasible.

There was (1) Adult collectors who were in for the long haul and (2) the kids that bought the gum, collected and flipped the cards and abandoned them at puberty for the most part.

Things have sure changed.
mike

Mac53

Hmmmmm. Maybe someone should start a new trading card company. Built around the kids.

mudflap02

I disagree that Johan Santana has anything to do with the state of the hobby today.

baseballfanatic

To be summed up in a nutshell, the hobby used to be for fun. That is why you collected. You enjoyed it. The hobby's chief motivation today is greed. A lot of people, kids and adults, are tired of getting burned by reprints advertised as genuine, reprints in PSA holders that have been cracked open, cards sold as mint that have been trimmed, recolored etc etc. People are paying thousands of dollars for cards with an SMR of 100.00, 500.00+ plus for unopened packs, 100.00 to have cards graded with grading companies walk through service, I can go on and on. The hobby better start policing itself rather than fleecing itself. Its all gotten way out of hand..............

Ahmanfan

I thought I'd mention this: it's amusing to me that the 'investors' started getting into the hobby at the time that the cards that are now worthless were being produced. serves them right!

John Barnes

iamthegreatcornholio

<< <i>There's gotta be a middle ground. They need to make a product that is cheap enough for kids, nice enough for adults, and in large enough quantities that won't clog the market, nor starve it. If a product is printed in sufficient quantities then there will be no need for adults to try and corner the market because everyone will be able to get the product at a retail level.............ideally, until the market eventually dries up. >>



I believe they have been doing that and calling it Topps Heritage.

Brian

bowdowntome

<< <i>
I believe they have been doing that and calling it Topps Heritage.

Brian >>



I haven't bought these, so I don't know. If they are doing this to get more kids (less than 10 years old) involved, then great, I hope it works.

But, looking at some ebay auctins for these, it looks like there are still way too many inserts, subsets, parallels, auto's, and built-in SP's, for kids to have any glimmer of hope to complete a set. I guess what I was getting at is the theory that "less is more". I like the retro-56 look, but do kids relate to that look? It still seems like they are geered too much towards adults. I also don't know how much those retail for, but I'm thinking less than $2 a pack should be the goal. If they spent less on developing chase cards, they'd have more to spend on a nicer base set. I'm thinking no more than 1-3 insert sets, and NO MORE stinking 1/1 things, and all those other incentives that keep the thumbs of the greedy adults firmly on the younger collectors.

Yes, kids have $$$ on their minds as well, but it's learned directly from the BIG KIDS (us).

bowdowntome

<< <i>Bowdown, your insights are fantastic.
Robert >>



Thanks, I've been accused more than once of "insighting" things.

Actually, aside from the big yearly price guides which I buy every couple years just to have a complete reference of what exists, I haven't bought a monthly "price guide" in about 5 years. I know what I am willing to pay for things, and if I can't find what I want for what I am willing to pay, I just wait. It always seems that what I am looking for eventually presents itself to me for what I am willing to pay.

rbdjr1

Look what the industry is shoving down the throats of hobbyists, and this is just for the latest 20004-05 Seasons!

Can you spell created rarities?

Baseball

BAZOOKA MOMENTS RELICS BOWMAN
DONRUSS DONRUSS 1985 REPRINTS
DONRUSS CLASSICS DONRUSS CLASSICS HOME RUN HEROES
DONRUSS DMD.KINGS DONRUSS ELITE
DONRUSS FANS OF THE GAME AUTOGRAPH DONRUSS MOUND MARVELS
DONRUSS POWER ALLEY DONRUSS TIMBER & THREADS
DONRUSS TIMELESS TREASURES H.O.F. eTOPPS PROMO
FINEST FINEST AUTOGRAPHS
FLAIR SIGNIFICANT SIGNINGS FLEER AUTHENTIX
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FLEER TRADITION DIAMOND TRIBUTES FLEER TRADITION STANDOUTS
FLEER TRADITION STANDOUTS JERSEY LEAF
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STADIUM CLUB TOPPS
TOPPS 1955 WORLD SERIES CUT SIGNATURE 1 OF 1 TOPPS 1955 WORLD SERIES MATCH-UP DUAL AUTOGRAPH
TOPPS A-ROD SPOKESMAN INSERT TOPPS ALL-STARS
TOPPS BARRY BONDS HOME RUN HISTORY TOPPS CHROME
TOPPS CHROME A-ROD THROWBACKS TOPPS CHROME CHROME THE GAME JERSEY
TOPPS CRACKER JACK TOPPS DEM BUMS
TOPPS GALLERY TOPPS GALLERY ORIGINALS
TOPPS GOLD TOPPS GRUDGE MATCH
TOPPS HERITAGE TOPPS HERITAGE CHROME
TOPPS HERITAGE FLASHBACKS TOPPS HERITAGE FLASHBACKS SEAT RELICS
TOPPS HERITAGE NEW AGE PERFORMERS TOPPS HERITAGE REAL ONE AUTO.
TOPPS HERITAGE THEN & NOW TOPPS HIT PARADE
TOPPS HOBBY MASTERS TOPPS OPENING DAY
TOPPS OWN THE GAME TOPPS PACK WARS
TOPPS POWER BROKERS CUT SIGNATURE 1 OF 1 TOPPS WORLD TREASURES CUT SIGNATURE
U.D. SWEET SPOT U.D. SWEET SPOT CLASSIC
U.D. WORLD SERIES HEROES UD SWEET SPOT CLASSIC MEMORBL.
ULTRA ULTRA FOLLOW THE LEADER
ULTRA GOLD MEDALLION ULTRA HOME RUN KINGS
ULTRA PLATINUM MEDALLION ULTRA STRIKE OUT KINGS
UPPER DECK UPPER DECK 4000 STRIKEOUT
UPPER DECK ARTIFACTS AUTO FACTS UPPER DECK ESPN
UPPER DECK FIRST PITCH UPPER DECK JETER HEROES
UPPER DECK MARQUEE ATTRACTIONS UPPER DECK MATINEE IDOLS

Basketball

BAZOOKA BOWMAN DRAFT PICKS & PROSPECTS
BOWMAN DRAFT PICKS & PROSPECTS ROOKIE REGISTRATION BOWMAN DRAFT PICKS & PROSPECTS SIGNS OF THE FUTURE
BOWMAN DRAFT PICKS & PROSPECTS TOPPS ORIGINAL BOWMAN INSTANT IMPACT-JERSEY
BOWMAN SIGNATURE BOWMAN SIGNATURE FLASHBACK AUTOGRAPH-JERSEY
eTOPPS FINEST
FINEST PERFECT PAIRS FLAIR
FLAIR CLASS OF .... FLAIR FINAL EDITION COURTSIDE CUTS JERSEY
FLAIR FINAL EDITION HOT NUMBERS JERSEY FLEER
FLEER AUTHENTIX FLEER AUTHENTIX AUTO JERSEY AUTHENTIX
FLEER AUTHENTIX AUTOGRAPH FLEER AUTHENTIX HOT TICKET
FLEER AUTHENTIX JERSEY AUTHENTIX (RIPPED) FLEER AUTHENTIX TIP-OFF TRIOS JERSEYS
FLEER COLLECTIBLES FLEER E-XL
FLEER E-XL JAMBALAYA FLEER GENUINE
FLEER GENUINE @ LARGE FLEER GENUINE @ LARGE GAME-USED
FLEER GENUINE BIG TIME-JERSEY FLEER GENUINE BUYBACK
FLEER GENUINE GENUINE ARTICLE FLEER GENUINE INSIDER
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FLEER TRADITION HARDCOURT TRIBUTES FLEER TRADITION SIGNING DAY
HOOPS HOT PROSPECTS HOOPS HOT PROSPECTS DOUBLE TEAM
HOOPS HOT PROSPECTS NOTABLE NEWCOMERS HOOPS PERDATORS
PRESS PASS PRESS PASS AUTHENTICS-AUTO.
PRESS PASS AUTOGRAPH PRESS PASS BIG NUMBERS
PRESS PASS POWER-PICK-AUTOGRAPH SA-GE AUTOGRAPHS
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SA-GE HIT Q&A SA-GE HIT THE WRITE STUFF
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SP GAME USED EXTRA SIGNIFICANCE SP GAME USED LEGENDARY FABRICS
SP GAME USED SIGNIFICANCE SP GAME USED UD RK.EXCLUSIVES
SP SIGNATURE SP SIGNATURE AKA AUTOGRAPHS
SP SIGNATURE INKREDIBLE INKSCRIPTIONS SP SIGNATURE ROOKIE AUTO DRAFTS
SP SIGNATURE ROOKIE GRAPHITI SP SIGNATURE ROOKIE INKORPORATED
SP SIGNATURE SCRIPTED IN TIME SP SIGNATURE SP SIGNS
SPx SPx WINNING COMBOS
SPx WINNING MAT. TOPPS
TOPPS ALL-STAR SUPPORT TOPPS ALL-STAR SUPPORT RELICS
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TOPPS LUXURY BOX TOPPS LUXURY BOX ASSIST
TOPPS LUXURY BOX LAY-UP-JERSEY TOPPS LUXURY BOX PROMO
TOPPS LUXURY BOX RED CARPET AUTOGRAPH TOPPS MARK OF EXCELLENCE
TOPPS MARKS OF EXCELLENCE TOPPS NATIONAL TRADING CARD DAY
TOPPS PRISTINE TOPPS PRISTINE FANTASY FAVORITES
TOPPS PRISTINE MINI RELIC TOPPS PRISTINE MINIS
TOPPS PRISTINE PERSONAL ENDORSEMENTS TOPPS PRISTINE ROOKIE SIGN-IN JERSEY
TOPPS PRISTINE TWO OF A KIND AUTOGRAPH TOPPS PRISTINE VERTICALITY
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ULTIMATE COLL. ULTIMATE COLL. ULTIMATE GAME JERSEY
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ULTRA GOLD MEDALLION ULTRA HOOP NATION
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UPPER DECK R-CLASS UPPER DECK ROOKIE ACADEMY
UPPER DECK ROOKIE REVIEW JERSEY UPPER DECK ROOKIE SCRAPBOOK

Football

PLAYOFF PRESTIGE PRESS PASS
PRESS PASS BIG NUMBERS PRESS PASS CERTIFIED AUTOGRAPH
PRESS PASS PAYDIRT PRESS PASS SE
SA-GE SA-GE FIRST CARD
SA-GE HIT SA-GE HIT JERSEY
SA-GE HIT SEC SPECIAL AUTOGRAPH SA-GE HIT THE WRITE STUFF
TOPPS CLASS MARKS AUTOGRAPHS TOPPS DRAFT PICKS & PROSPECTS
TOPPS DRAFT PICKS&PROS.CLSS MK U.D. ROOKIE DEBUT
U.D. ROOKIE DEBUT DEBUT INK U.D. ROOKIE DEBUT SATURDAY SWATCHES

Hockey

BAP IN THE GAME FRANCH.CANADIAN ED.GOALIE GEAR BAP IN THE GAME HEROES & PROSPECTS
BAP IN THE GAME HEROES & PROSPECTS AUTOGRAPHS BAP IN THE GAME HEROES & PROSPECTS IN THE NUMBERS
BAP ULTIMATE MEMORABILIA AUTOGRAPH HALL OF FAME MEDALLION CANADIAN LEGENDS
PACIFIC SP AUTHENTIC SIGN OF THE TIMES QUADS.
U.D. GAME JERSEY U.D. GAME JERSEY AUTOGRAPH
ULTIMATE COLLECTION ULTIMATE SIGNATURES UPPER DECK
UPPER DECK LEGENDS CLASSICS UPPER DECK LEGENDS CLASSICS SIGNATURES
UPPER DECK SWATCH OF SIX

Misc.

ARTBOX HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE-PROMO DUEL MASTERS SURVIVORS OF THE MEGAPOCALYPSE
INKWORKS BUFFY VAMPIRE SLAYER AUTOGRAPS INKWORKS LOST PREVIEW SET
INKWORKS ROBOTS SKETCH CARDS MAGIC THE GATHERING PROMO
PRESS PASS PRESS PASS ECLIPSE HYPERDRIVE
PRESS PASS ECLIPSE MAXIM PRESS PASS GAME FACE
RITTENHOUSE STAR TREK QUOTABLE ARCHIVES COSTUME RITTENHOUSE STAR TREK QUOTABLE AUTOGRAPH
RITTENHOUSE STAR TREK QUOTABLE STARFLEET'S FINEST S.I. FOR KIDS
SPORTS ILLUSTRATED SWIMSUIT MODELS STAR WARS REVENGE OF THE SITH LENTICULAR MORPHING
TOPPS CHRONICLES TOPPS STAR WARS REVENGE OF THE SITH EMBOSSED
TOPPS WACKY PACKAGES CLEAR CLINGS ULTIMATE SIG.ED.SIGNATURE SUPREMACY HI.TRD.CONF.
ULTIMATE SIGNATURE ED. SIGNS OF HAWAII-HI.TRD CONF UPPER DECK ULTIMATE SIGNATURE ED.HAWAII TRADE SHOW
WHEELS HIGH GEAR FULL THROTTLE

WinPitcher

why can't the kids just collect the base set? and if they happen to get a GU or auto or SP that is gravy?

if I was showing the hobby to a kid in this day and age id show him that a complete base set is a good thing and whatever etra's you get, you get. that make any sense?

sd

jad22

I my opinion, the end of kid friendly cards was 1989. The first year of Upper Deck.
When I left the hobby as a teenager a couple of years later the market seemed flooded with an abundance of high priced junk. It seems even worse today. It is no longer a hobby for kids, just men buying and selling psa graded cards. Where is the thrill of going to a card show and finding a unslabbed card and using your own eyes to determine if a card was mint? I am sorry, but prices are out of control, cards are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them.

Boopotts

Let's just can the nostalgia trip. I don't want to hear anything more about the 'way things used to be' from guys who are willing to pony up four figures for a piece of cardboard encased in plastic. Buying a $800 pack of basketball cards is unquestionably irresponsible; but it's no more ridiculous than spending two grand on a 'low pop common', or whatever.

The whole hobby is completely off the chain-- vintage, modern, everything. The sooner we all admit this the sooner we can put this 'vintage vs. modern' tripe to rest. If you tell a 'normal' person that a PSA 8 '52 Topps Mantle costs upwards of 40K, and that you can now buy 'tins' of modern cards for about a grand, they'll think both numbers are equally absurd.

Step back for a second and look at this thing with fresh eyes. First, we should all admit that PSA has done a fantastic job of convincing all of us that the most mintute speck of damage on a card should drop it's value ten fold. Look at how you collected 10 years ago. I posed this to JEB about two years ago, and I'll pose it now: If someone ten years ago had offered you a NM '71 Ryan for $100, and a 'mint' Ryan for $3000, you would have told him to keep the 'mint' one in a New York minute. Nobody cared about microscopic corner damage, or whether a card had a barely distinguishable diamond cut, before PSA told them to care. Now we come on these boards and freely gush over mint specimens without the slightest hint of irony. If you think the hobby is 'too much about money', and you're kicking out a thousand bucks for a PSA 10 '74 Deckle Edge Aaron or whatever, then guess what? YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! Now I'm not insulting you, or telling to change your collecting habits. As I just mentioned in my post to Stevek on the Registry boards everyone should absolutely be entitled to do what they want with their money. But it's important to understand a couple key concepts:

1) If the hobby seems like it's 'all about the money' it's because collectors-- and that means you and me-- have allowed it to degenerate to this point through our willingness to pay absurd prices for pictures of athletes printed on cardboard.

2) This probably wouldn't have happened if either a) PSA hadn't adopted it's particular grading scale, and b) collectors hadn't decided en masse that PSA's way of grading cards was superior to the method that had been used for the previous 30 years.

3) People are willing to pay stupid prices for both modern and vintage cards. And for those of you who say 'vintage will hold it's value' I ask you to take a look at what's happened to the prices of PSA 8 commons and PSA 9 stars in the past five years. Nobody here needs to get smug about collecting vintage if they're holding onto a bunch of '75 commons in PSA 8 that they paid twenty bucks a pop for in 2002.


It's all sports cards, guys. Whether they're printed in 1952 or 2002, who really cares? Let people buy what they want to buy, and for Christ's sake don't cop an attitude about it. Kall Malone Say wrote a couple years ago that he'd rather (and I paraphrase here) 'buy cards of players I can watch now, as opposed to cards picturing a bunch of dead, alcoholic racists'. Who can argue with that sentiment? Sure, paying 10 grand for a Bowman Chrome Puhols rookie is beyond dumb; but in the grand scheme it's no dumber than the purchases that members of these boards make every day. And if you bemoan the fact that more people aren't getting into vintage cards remember that part of the problem is that you, as a collector, have sanctioned the outrageous prices that these cards can fetch through your willingness to buy them.

Stone193

Thanx Boo.

I can sum this up too:

What is...is...so dance with the partner you came with. Or you will be walking home alone.

mike

Boopotts

"Look what the industry is shoving down the throats of hobbyists, and this is just for the latest 20004-05 Seasons!

Can you spell created rarities?"

Yes== and it's spelled 'PSA 10'.

WinPitcher

interesting............again i repeat, why can't kids collect just the base set and be happy? I sure would be.


Topps puts out a few sets that they can have fun with. I am a little confused as to what boopotts is saying and how it applies to this thread.

did I miss somthing?

SD

Boopotts

Hi Mike-

Well, I see my fellow night owl is prowling the boards. I think 90 percent of the exchanges you and I have had have occured after midnight

Sorry if I came off as too caustic. I started typing, and I got carried away. But I do think my point stands; i.e., that the blame for crazy card prices starts and stops with the collector. Anyone here who's lamenting the end of the 'good old days' can start buying packs of Topps Total. Somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

Boopotts

Hi Steve--

My post is in reaction to the sentiment that 'modern cards are crazy, no wonder kids don't get into them'. My point is that the vintage side of this hobby is as absurd as the modern side, and that we, as collectors, have only ourselves to blame for this development.

bowdowntome

boopotts - Well, I agree with just about everything you wrote and I feel lucky to be one of those who have never paid those extreme prices for graded cards, or ungraded for that matter.

But, I don't think it's the adults spending alot of money that is the problem. 30 years ago, adults were still spending more money on cards than kids, and still could afford more, it's all relative. And it's not the vintage collectors copping attitudes that is the problem.

The problem lies in the fact that we (the adults) blindly go on collecting for ourselves and never think about the future of the hobby, at least not past our own lives. 30 years ago kids didn't care about vintage oldtimers, nor 20 years ago, or even last year. In fact 5 or 10 years from now, kids still won't care about the old guys. There has always been, and always will be, a seperation between mainly vintage collectors and mainly modern collectors. Kids usually start out collecting modern because that is what they are familiar with. Later on in their collecting life they may sart to appreciate more what came before them and switch to vintage as well. But it all starts with kids collecting modern stuff. If the modern stuff isn't kid-friendly, and affordable, then they will not grow up to be adult collectors, and a whole generation of potential collectors will be lost. It's all in the greedy hands of the card manufacturers.........and (begin sarcasm here) I'm sure they care more about the future of the hobby than their own bottom line!

It should be every seasoned, veteran collectors' obligation to at least attempt to pass the collecting torch to the next generation of collectors. Unfortunately, we live in a ME, ME, ME society. I just wish I had some young relatives of the potential collecting age that I could take under my wings and show the ropes to, but that probably won't be for several more years, at least.

......and all my young relatives are girls, so I'm really gonna have my work cut out for me.

WinPitcher

Thanks for clarifying

ahhh you mean like the 65 skowron in psa 10 that sold for 1.5k tonite? an 8 can be had for 30 bucks or less and even that is prolly hi) I know I am part of the problem, but I built my 65 set at a point in my life where I had extra dough and could afford to have fun. if i get back hapf of what i put out it was worth it. actually I'll never sell it but if whoever does gets anything for it thay will be ahead.

SD

bowdowntome

<< <i>interesting............again i repeat, why can't kids collect just the base set and be happy? I sure would be.

SD >>



I'd say that would be great.........where are they?

I'm a grown adult with a steady job and income, and I can't even afford to collect most base sets. Besides that, most of the "inexpensive" stuff I've seen is not very attractive. I still think that companies can do a better job of making a better base set if they cut down on the bells and whistles designed to attract adults.

Stone193

<< <i>Hi Mike-

Well, I see my fellow night owl is prowling the boards. I think 90 percent of the exchanges you and I have had have occured after midnight

Sorry if I came off as too caustic. I started typing, and I got carried away. But I do think my point stands; i.e., that the blame for crazy card prices starts and stops with the collector. Anyone here who's lamenting the end of the 'good old days' can start buying packs of Topps Total. Somehow I don't think that's going to happen. >>


Boo
There's part of the interesting thing also - who's "good ole" days are we talking about. Someone might reference 1992 as the good ole days - I'm thinking the 50s to truly get a retrospective POV.

I reference Burdick and his buds - I'm wondering how many have read the chronicles of these true collector pioneers. They also attached monetary value to cards but in a much more benign way compared to today.

I guess my point is - as you had said - there is no good ole days - but also - the damage is done - we learn from each other here and make adjustments in out collecting habits.

I rarely buy cards and none really expensive by today's standards - in fact, I would rather buy a "guaranteed" auto'ed item than cards - pins, sports related whiskey decanters, bats etc. get me more excited anymore.

mike

Boopotts

Hi Bowdown-

I'm not sure what people want the card companies to do. There's a demand for high end modern product, and the card companies would be doing a disservice to their shareholders if they didn't fill that demand. However, Topps has issues every year that come with a SRP of around a buck or two, which seems reasonable. I was paying a dollar a pack for '87 Donruss when I was making $3.35 an hour at the local Pizza Hut, and I never had a problem with that.

If kids don't want to buy those cards because it's 'not the good stuff', then so be it. I can't see any way to change that. Sure it's a bummer, but it's just the way it is.

Also, I think you may be forgetting one of the key psychological motivations for collecting cards. We tend to think it's because we like the players, or love the game, but I think it goes deeper than that. My feeling is that for most of us collecting is an opportunity to engage in a past time which can alternately be intensely social OR intensely private. Virtually no other hobby offers this. For instance-- if you play softball, you have to play with other guys. But with card collecting you can come on these boards and mindlessly rant, like I'm doing right now, or you can sit quietly in your office and peruse Ebay listing and thumb through your cards. Both activities are related to the hobby, and both are (for me, anyway) intensely satisfying. So, as kids get older I think many will be drawn to the hobby whether they collected seriously as kids or not, if only because our hobby affords it's enthusiasts certain virtues which can't be found in most other past times.

Boopotts

"I know I am part of the problem, but I built my 65 set at a point in my life where I had extra dough and could afford to have fun."

Hi Steve,

Just so the record is straight, I in no way blame you for spending your discretionary income on whatever cards strike your fancy. If PSA 10's are your game then by all means go for it. I'm not looking to make anyone feel bad.

Stone193

Bow
Good post and there's a ton wrong with the card companies and their problems with the players demanding more money along with a demand for higher end products.

There are affordable base brand sets like bazooka, total and others. Even if kids want more? OK? They quit? OK. The stay? OK.

There will always be some kind of sporting cards produced, there will always be collectors and with the cat out fo the bag, there will always be some kind of investors.

How many out there think about this as much as we? Do they read any kind of chat boards? I don't know.
But here's a reality - there are ONLY 15K total members in PSA forums (coins, stamps etc.) and usually only about 1% logged at any given time.

That's not a lot of people - I have a feeling that most collectors come and go. But, they still provide "life" for the hobby while engaged.

The true collector will be in the game no matter what. If PSA crashes - I crack the few I have and place them in binders.

Thanx for the discussion
The good news: if one decides to hang around - we'll be having some kind of discussion just like this 5 yrs. from now.

mike

WinPitcher

Bow

in 04 i liked the fact that topps/bazooka had a retro standup as an insert to its bazooka set. i have spent under 100.00 on 4 boxes. I got gum to chew and am short maybe 19 cards for the complete base set. I have bought some standups on ebay.

if i am in for 150.00 that would be topps. hehe. ive opened pack after pack on a sunday afternoon and had lotsa fun. im sure kids can find some product out there that is reasonable in price. topps total is another one. heritage...........the stuff is out there, as is the 500.00 lottery type stuff too.


sd

NewJerseyMeatHook

Blame the dying of the hobby on the elimination of stirrups and ugly baseball uniforms.

Used to be a father would show his son how to correctly roll his socks and sport his uniform. You know, higher the socks, better strike zone.

Today's players look like circus clowns.

Rod Carew and many others chewed tobacco to stretch their cheeks and see the pitch better. Today, tobacco is fiercely frowned upon.

Where are the Hrabosky's, Fidrych's, Johnstone's, Lee's?

Fathers might be spending too much time on their own pursuits and not enough time playing pepper with the boys in the back yard.

Call it a rant, I guess.

Mac53

<< <i>most of us collecting is an opportunity to engage in a past time which can alternately be intensely social OR intensely private. Virtually no other hobby offers this. >>



I agree. But I'm not sure where the discussion is heading, and maybe it's because I'm too thick. I will collect because what I collect means something to me. I don't think I'm an obsessive collector, but I do get a feeling I enjoy when I've closed the deal on certain cards. I don't get all of this "passing the torch" stuff. I had a lot of junk in my house as a kid that was junk. Now, it would be collectible. But, old cameras or clothes or games or whatever don't invoke emotions in me that old baseball cards do, for whatever reason. If my kid thinks these old cards are crap, she can burn them when I'm dead, I don't care. And I don't think that Topps or anyone owes me any particular product. I will buy modern product if I like it. If not, I won't. If the "hobby" dies, then it dies. When I stored my first cards, way, way back when, there was no "hobby," there was only a love of the game itself, and the men who played the game. Some seem to think that there's an obligation to create a future market. I don't. If the kids of today see no value in the cards in the future, so be it. Like I have said before, investing in cards is just crazy. Am I missing the whole point here?

Boopotts

"Like I have said before, investing in cards is just crazy. Am I missing the whole point here?"

LOL-- No, I don't think so. The problem, I think, is that it's late, and we're all tired, and as a result we're all probably talking about different things.

I

Stone193

<< <i>Am I missing the whole point here? >>


No Mac
There's just a lot of different themes running thru the same thread that are intimately related but could be separate.

I know what you're saying and agree with your POV.

Worrying about the future of the hobby has more to do with worrying about the viability of Topps and company. That's almost like "investor" talk - since really one is worried about whether their cards will be worth anything down the road.

A Hobby owes you nothing - YOU are the hobby - it's supposed to bring you entertainment, pleasure, diversion from work and other stuff etc. In it's purest sense - there should be no talk of how much one spent - it's gone - what you have left is pieces of collectibles, memories, fun, etc.

Again, there will always be a collecting hobby - one may not recognize it 20 yrs from now but...

mike