ALF ALF ALF ALF ALF ALF ALF ALF ALF!!!!!
joestalin
Posts: 12,473 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Is taking Gemmy and the Yanks behind the woodshed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
BAM
JS
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
BAM
JS
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are left with the real deal!
JS
Yes, but he did not hustle and probably got the wrath of Bucky. LOL
<< <i>d@mn 4-4 tonite 4 rbi's hr 3 runs scored. who got the better of that arod trade? seems like an even swap the yanks didnt have to make.. >>
But the yankees are paying less money for arod than the rangers are paying for soriano. Remember, texas is paying a portion of Arod's contract, and paying for all of Soriano's.
And would anyone really prefer to have Soriano over Arod based on skills alone?
few years, that Soriano is just as good as Arod offensively, and Arod is considered one of the best playing today. Its time that Soriano
started getting in that converstation!
JS
Yes, joestalin loves Soriano as much as you love A-Rod and I love Jeter.
JS
ps dang lead off double and 39 million in players couldn't move him over...Jason Giambi might as well be Jeremy Giambi without
the juice!
<< <i>in the end, arod is making much more than soriano, it doesn't matter who is paying it, you only have to look at the stats over the past
few years, that Soriano is just as good as Arod offensively, and Arod is considered one of the best playing today. Its time that Soriano
started getting in that converstation!
JS >>
Yes of course he's making more, but it's deservedly so, as is he the best player in baseball (sorry Pujols fans).
Arod vs. Soriano the past 3 years:
Arod:
.295 BA, 140 HR, 366 RBI, .966 OPS. One MVP (should have been two) one second place finish, 2 gold gloves, 3 all star appearances.
Alfie:
.290 BA, 105 HR, 284 RBI, .850 OPS. One third place finish in MVP, 3 all star appearances.
Soriano is good, but to put him in with the game's elite at this point just isn't warranted. That's not to say he won't, but its far too soon to tell.
I agree with Axtey on this one. A-Rod is a better fielder too. Soriano is one heck of a player.
Soriano is only one year younger than A-Rod and looks how many more career Homers A-Rod has.
<< <i>I agree with Axtey on this one. >>
And that cracking you hear is the sound of hell freezing over.
Arod has been fortunate with no major injuries....and continuing that trend, he will be the second member of the 700 HR, 3000 hit club....and could quite possibly go for 800 HRs.
I think when you see the huge number of additions to the 500 HR club that are coming, it will make that seem a lot less special.
<< <i>I agree with Axtey on this one >>
Oh my - please don't do this again...you are freaking me out Gemmiester!
<< <i>come now, Soriano was hurt the last two years. can we get some AB's?? >>
Well if you want to nitpick, you could say that Arod hasn't had a significant injury in his career. Many will say that is attributed to his unmatched work ethic and training regimen. Perhaps Soriano needs to hit the gym and hire a better trainer?
ARod - 407 Career Homers in 5930 at Bats - 1 Homer for every 14.57 at bats.
Soriano - 148 Career Homers in 2972 at Bats - 1 Homer for every 20.08 at bats.
300 homers for a second basemen, who played lead off half his career???
beast
JS
OPS+ rankings the last four years are.....
92
131
128
98
OPS+ of 100 is league average. OPS+ has faults in cross era comparisons, but does quite well for comparing contemporaries.
Soriano is the opposite of Troy Aikman. Soriano is a better Fantasy player than a real player, wheras Aikman was a poor fantasy player and an excellent NFL player.
Soriano steals at 77% so he is helping a little there, but not as much as people think. His defense stinks. Him being a second basemen helps his overral value.
The other slugging second basemen of his era is Jeff Kent, and Kent has far superior hitting ability thus far with many years over average, and he eclipsed Soriano's career best FOUR TIMES.
Alomar eclipsed Sorianos best OPS+ FIVE TIMES
Biggio eclipsed Soriano's best OPS+ FOUR TIMES
Knoblauch even got him TWICE.
I didn't look any further as off the top of my head I can't think of others. You guys can check out for more guys.
Greatest all time is a severe stretch. There are three second basemen in his own era that are clearly better hitters AND two of them are superior defensively, and Kent probably at least as good in the field.
Jeff Kent rookie card. You can't come in here and compare stats of a guy who has been in the league for 15 years and a guy who
has been in for 4. Give me the stats of these guys through 4 seasons and we can talk. If Soriano is hitting 30 dingers for the first
4 years, what is this guy going to do when he has a career season?
Sure his offense is weak, but who really cares about that? Heck Bonds was a freaking genius on this board for 2 years, and we know
what a glass arm he has....and outs???? when does that ever show up on a guys resume?? Its kinda like a pitcher with 250 wins
and 220 losses.....the guy was only good for 30 wins!
Arod is great and paid for it, but Soriano is keeping pace with this guy every season.
JS
"Keeping Pace with Arod." Joe, I suggest another method of evaluation for you to use, as whatever method you are using is very flawed to say the least.
You keep saying Soriano is the best ever, and that is quite a difficult feat if there are three contemporaries of his who are clearly better. As I said in the post above, Soriano's best two seasons were eclipsed by those other three quite often. So just measuring their prime years, Soriano doesn't compare.
Soriano already had the best two years of his career, and unless he learns how to get on base more, and make less outs, you have already seen the best he has to offer. Add his basestealing skills in decline, he will never measure up to those other three. We already know he has never had as good as years as those guys in their prime, and not even close. When you add defense, it isn't even a discussion. You keep referrring to Bond's puss arm, maybe you should refer to Soriano's BLOCK Hands, or Poor Range for a quick guy.
Joe with the proper measurement, he has been a league average hitter for two seasons, and pretty good for the other two. If he can somehow replicate those 131 and 128 OPS+'s for another ten straight years then he will compare to those guys.
Please, if you insist on including How many total home runs the man has in a season, make sure you include the 500+ outs that went with it, because he needs a lot of at bats to achieve those totals.
His slugging is a little over .500 this year, but his OB% is well below average at .318, and that is in the best hitters park in the AL. So even now he isn't replicating his best two years...he is falling short.
The man is 29 years old. He will probably have a few more seasons like this. Then when he hits his decline, his percentages will take a hit like the usualy man. In the end, he just won't compare with the best three second basemen of the 90's-00's, let alone the best ever.
A CAREER .323 OB% WHEN THE LEAGUE AVERAGE WAS .336 IS PRETTY BAD! AT .318 NOW HE ISN'T DOING ANYTHING TO HELP THAT. LIKE I SAID, A GREAT FANTASY PLAYER, NOT AS GREAT IN REAL LIFE(EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND PLAYER EVALUATION). IF he wants to get into the discussion of best 2B ever, he better get on base more, while keeping his slugging, then we can talk about that. Improving defensively wouldn't hurt either
We get it...you're a HUGE Soriano fan.
So you're saying that unless there's demand for a player's card, he's not worthwhile on the field? How much demand is there for Greg Maddux rookies?
But if you are going to sit there and say he's keeping up with Arod in every offensive category, then when you are proved otherwise, well, man, you just need to accept that.
And how can you say he is as good a player as Arod, then sit back and say 'well Soriano's defense sucks'. Defense is part of the game...unless they move Soriano to DH, his defensive liabilities are going to be a knock against him.
Soriano is a good player, don't get me wrong. But your comparing him to Arod and saying he keeps up is just incorrect.
They are the SAME AGE, AND before the season started Arod had 381 home runs, and Soriano 126. How is that keeping pace?? Do you expect Soriano to play till age 50?
<< <i>Even using your own flawed methods of keeping pace with Arod....
They are the SAME AGE, AND before the season started Arod had 381 home runs, and Soriano 126. How is that keeping pace?? Do you expect Soriano to play till age 50? >>
He'll say that Arod had an unfair advantage because he started playing at 19.
and what is this Soriano is in his prime garbage??? What just cause the guy is blowing up the league you think this is the best he
can do? I guess you also think that Pujols will never hit 60 or 70 in a season??
Soriano is still learning, he still hasn't had an entire season batting on one position. He started this season batting lead off and then
was moved into the power slots. You don't think of a second basemen in a power spot do you? You all have to remember, he was
hitting 40 homers in the lead off spot with the Yanks...who does that now a days?
I would be willing to bet that Arods power numbers look very similar to Soriano's through 4 seasons. Age has little to do with it, Soriano
is improving every year. He would of had monster #'s last year if not for an injury he got busting his *ss on a play.
I hear a lot of talk, but what I don't see is:
1) Someone showing me Arods stats for his first 4 seasons
2) Someone showing me their Soriano rookie cards for trade
LMK
Kevin
<< <i>
1) Someone showing me Arods stats for his first 4 seasons
2) Someone showing me their Soriano rookie cards for trade
LMK
Kevin >>
Arod for the first 4 full years of his career:
.317 BA, 36 HR/year, 110 RBI/year
Alf for the first 4 full years of his career:
.284 BA, 30 HR/year, 89 RBI/ year
They are both the same age Stalin...why is it so hard to compare where they are at in their careers, even though Arod's been in the league longer?
As of the end of last year, they were both 28 years old. Arod through age 28:
381 HR, 1096 RBi, .305 BA
Alf:
126 HR, 361 RBI, .283 BA
Arod is going to end up his career with more than double the amount of HR and RBI that Alf will. Arod had a season as TWENTY year old that Alf at 28 hasn't even come close to (Arod went .358 with 36 HR and 123 RBI).
As far as demand for cards? Why don't you tell me what an Arod 1994 SP in 9 and 10 sell for?
and this was not a paid political announcement from the Republican Central Committee
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
and Soriano was a lead off hitter for most of his career, yet still has averaged 89 rbi's.....Arod got more pitches to hit
because guys were trying to get around Grif.
Im sorry but those numbers only make my case stronger. Soriano has more years in front of him than does Arod. He also hasn't
peaked yet, Arod has.
As far as your "same age" theory, thats just laim, you can only compare stats like HR's and RBI's when the at-bats are the same. Doesn't
my argument win out just because we are here even debating this? Arod the "greatest active player in the bigs", yet Soriano is right
on his heels!
JS
<< <i>wow 6 homers and 20 rbi's more from the best player in baseball??
>>
I like how you 'conveniently' left out the fact the 30 point differential in batting average...or did that slip your mind? As a leadoff hitter, isn't his job to get on base? Arod's OBP for his first 4 years is over .370, Soriano's a significant amount less, .325. Isn't a leadoff hitter's job to get on base, yet Arod again dominates this category.
<< <i>
and Soriano was a lead off hitter for most of his career, yet still has averaged 89 rbi's.....Arod got more pitches to hit
because guys were trying to get around Grif.
>>
And you are saying that Soriano didn't have any lineup help in NY? You really think that people were pitching to Arod to get around Griffey?
<< <i>
Im sorry but those numbers only make my case stronger. Soriano has more years in front of him than does Arod. He also hasn't
peaked yet, Arod has.
>>
I don't get this...how does Soriano have more years in front of him that Arod does? THEY ARE THE SAME AGE NOW?
Does Soriano have a time traveling machine we don't know about? How exactly do you think that Soriano is going to play more years that Arod? Don't blame Arod because he had the skills to be in the bigs at 18, and DOMINATING it at 20.
<< <i>
As far as your "same age" theory, thats just laim, you can only compare stats like HR's and RBI's when the at-bats are the same. Doesn't
my argument win out just because we are here even debating this? Arod the "greatest active player in the bigs", yet Soriano is right
on his heels!
JS >>
Right on his heels? Uhm how many MVPs has Soriano won? How many gold gloves (gulp) is Soriano going to win? I'll give you a hint, it's the same number as I will win (ZERO).
Arod is in a completely different universe than Soriano. That doesn't make Soriano a bad player; I admit he's very good. But when you hold him up to the light of arguably the greatest player in the game today, all of Soriano's holes show all that brighter.
never win a ring in NY he will leave and pursue golf or something! Do I know Alf is going to play until he is 40..no, but he will play longer
than pay-rod.
Alf is more of a free swinger than Arod, I see Soriano only getting more disciplined at the plate and see him batting close to .300 and along
with his power numbers, this will keep him in the argument.
would I rather have 2K in Arod rookies or Soriano rookies.....I think the later!
JS
<< <i>You think arod is going to play another 15 years with the amount of jack he is getting paid?? cmon, once he figures it out that he will
never win a ring in NY he will leave and pursue golf or something! Do I know Alf is going to play until he is 40..no, but he will play longer
than pay-rod.
>>
What the hell does that mean? You really think that Soriano is going to play until he's 43? And if you honestly think that of Arod, that he's only in it for the money, then please, please oh wise one, explain to me why he's in the gym at 6 am, before anyone else? If he was only about getting paid, he'd certainly not care about that would he?
<< <i>
Alf is more of a free swinger than Arod, I see Soriano only getting more disciplined at the plate and see him batting close to .300 and along
with his power numbers, this will keep him in the argument.
>>
What in the world would make you think that he's going to get more disciplined at the plate? Here are his strikeout totals for the last 4 years:
125, 157 (!!!), 130, 121, for an average of over 133 per year. Arod's first for years he averaged 108 K's per year. Do you honestly think that Soriano is going to be able to reduce his K's 25%?
would I rather have 2K in Arod rookies or Soriano rookies.....I think the later!
JS >>
Hmm that's like asking would you rather have 2k in Mantle rookies or 2k in Maris rookies.
Of course you can buy more cards with Soriano, but is that mean it's a better deal or more valuable?
You are losing this one big time, now most of your posts are my posts. So Soriano struck out 13 more times his rookie season
than did arod, he also had more at bats. Arod has struck out 121,132,135 and 142!!!! times in four years.....and your point is??
Im sorry but Arod makes 3 times what Alf does and is barely holding the guy off!
oh and as far as fielding...arod has 10 errors as a 3rd basemen and alf has just 3 more at 2nd base......dang, I guess you lost
that argument too
JS
Did you forget he was a great shortstop who moved to third base when he went to NY?
How many years and years has Soriano been playing second base? His entire career?
And you again fail to acknowledge the FACTS that Soriano strikes out 25% more than Arod. Speaking of that, where did you get your 'facts' about Arod's strike out totals? The most he's every struck out was 131 times....and I thought you wanted to compare their first four years in the league, now you're pulling numbers out of a hat to try to defend your (wrong) choice?
And as far as salaries, again, you are comparing apples and oranges! Soriano is making 7.5 million in his fourth full year...Arod is in his NINTH and has been paid for his incredible years. Do you think Soriano is going to re-sign for under 8 million a year?
Your inability to compare these two players on an even playing field is frustrating. On one hand, you want to say 'compare their stats at the same point in their careers!' but then point to their salaries as to why Soriano is a better player. Then you start making up statistics (Arod's strike out totals) in order to try and bolster your argument. You also fail to mention that while Soriano and Arod have grown closer in their error totals, you fail to acknowledge that Arod has just started his second year at a completely new position. Yet you have no qualms in mentioning Soriano being moved around the lineup as the reason he's not hitting more.
Which is it Joe? Are you ever going to have some semblence of order and consistency in your debate? Or are you going to randomly change your reasoning and basis for debate over and over?
My SO stats came right off ESPN's website......SO does mean strike out right???
sure alf wiffs 25% more than Arod, but arod makes 300% more
Soriano for 7 mil.....BARGIN!!!
JS
<< <i>ahhh, now we talk about money and suddenly arod has played more.....but they both the same age!!!!
>>
So which is it Joe? are you going to compare their first four years (when they made comparable money) or are you going to compare Arod at 10 years into his career and Soriano at 4 years in? Which do you want to go with? How much did Arod make after his fourth year in the majors? Was it 22 million? Or was it closer to the $8 million that Soriano is making?
<< <i>
My SO stats came right off ESPN's website......SO does mean strike out right???
>>
Uhm they did? You sure you don't want to double check those numbers to make sure you weren't making them up? Because you are wrong.
<< <i>
sure alf wiffs 25% more than Arod, but arod makes 300% more
Soriano for 7 mil.....BARGIN!!!
JS >>
Again, you want to compare these two at different points in their career when it benefits you (in this case, Arod making $15 million more per year), but when you look at cumulutive numbers (even though they are the same age) you scream 'Arod's been in the league longer! Look at their first four years!!!'
Which is it Joe? Do you want to compare them at 4 years, or compare them now?
Compare them now (at the same age) yes you have Arod making 3 times as much, but he's hit over 400 home runs, nearly 1200 RBI, and a career batting average of .306 to go with his MVP and gold gloves. Soriano at the same age has 149 HR (less than half!), 422 RBI (nearly 1/3rd!), and a career batting average of .283, with no MVP, and no gold gloves.
So which do you want to debate Joe? Do you want to compare them at 4 years in, or career? Because it's apparent you like to take pieces of information when it benefits you, without making any real sense.