speaking of hall of famers?
kuhlmann
Posts: 3,326 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Chipper jones?
Mike piazza?
John franco?
Tom glavine
schilling
randy johnson
manny ramirez
brian giles
Mike piazza?
John franco?
Tom glavine
schilling
randy johnson
manny ramirez
brian giles
0
Comments
Mike piazza- Yes best hitting catcher in history
John franco- No
Tom glavine- Still needs a few more wins
schilling- Doubtful unless he really has some more great seasons
randy johnson- Yes
manny ramirez- Probably if he produces the same numbers a couple more years then yes
brian giles- No
Other guys to add to this list that I'd like to see the responses for:
Jim Edmonds
Andruw Jones
Craig Biggio
John Smoltz
Frank Thomas
Mike piazza- First ballot...as above, best hitting catcher ever.
John franco- No
Tom glavine- On the bubble...will get in as he was one of the more dominant pitchers of his era, not first ballot
schilling- No. Big in postseason but not nearly enough regular season work to qualify.
randy johnson- Yes. First ballot without a doubt.
manny ramirez- Probably not.
brian giles- No
Other guys to add to this list that I'd like to see the responses for:
Jim Edmonds - No. Highlight reel in the field, no way he makes it in though.
Andruw Jones - Way too early to tell.
Craig Biggio - Should be first ballot, but he's been overlooked his entire career. He'll get in though.
John Smoltz - Same as Glavine.
Frank Thomas - iffy...injuries hurt his chances, the fact he's looked at as so one dimensional and didn't stand out doesn't help.
LOL i just threw his name in there to see if all you guys would jump my case. I know he is not a hall of famer. but as far as John Franco goes. you dont think he will make it ever? he did have over 400 saves i think?
palmiero no? biggio yes? what the heck is that all about?
sd
<< <i>I don't see franco or even lee smith making it.
palmiero no? biggio yes? what the heck is that all about?
sd >>
Called about dominating your position.
Biggio was arguably the best second baseman in this generation (along with Jeff Kent).
Raffy was mediocre in the field at best...and never was the best first baseman.
There's no comparison between them...Biggio was actually an asset to his team, Raffy was easily replaceable by several others in the league.
.
mediocre at best? you surely are kidding right?
995 fielding pos? gold gloves? known to be smooth as silk amongst his peers?
<shaking head>
There's no comparison between them...
I agree, one is a slugging, slick fielding 1st basemen with 3000 hits and over 550 homers.
The other (biggio) played C, 2nd base and now the OF. My intent was not to compare them it was to understand why you would think one is a first ballot guy while the other is not even hall worthy.
I think it runs deeper then what you have expressed.
Because Palmiero was not a mediocre fielder by any stretch.
sd
Win, it's apparent you have a soft spot for players who stick around for 100 years and never dominate. How else do you explain your fascination with an average player who hung around for 20 years, never sniffed an MVP, never led the league in average, HR, or RBI?
Biggio is the only player to ever earn all star appearances at catcher and second base.
Biggio is the definition of dominating your position. Name me a player during his era who you'd rather have at second.
Now make a list (a really long one) of what first basemen you'd rather have besides Raffy during HIS playing years.
Sorry Ax but Roberto Alomar in his prime was twice the player Biggio was
<< <i>Biggio is the definition of dominating your position. Name me a player during his era who you'd rather have at second.
Sorry Ax but Roberto Alomar in his prime was twice the player Biggio was >>
Twice the player? Come on now. But let's say Alomar was better.
How long is that list of players better than Raffy at first?
Mike piazza?...yes but please don't put him next to Yogi and Bench, power yes, great catcher no
John franco?...no no and no
Tom glavine...not yet
schilling...not yet, think how many more wins this guy would have if he didn't pitch for the Phillies!
randy johnson...yes, dominating
manny ramirez....no
brian giles....no
alf soriano...best hitting 2nd basemen ever, first ballot
JS
as for the 100 yr comment Biggio and Palmiero have played for basically the same amt of time. I almost always see a response like that for what it is. 100 yrs....cmon buddy.
hanging around? hardly.
I bet if you looked at the Hall of famers already in, the may's, aaron's etc etc etc you will see that they too played for 20 yrs. or so.
edited to add: and some of them truly did hang on. for various reasons, but most notably money.
you could look it up
Todays players that can reach a 20 yr milestone hardly are hanging on.
the economics of baseball does not allow for that luxuary.
I dunno why don't you tell us?
and as for piazza being the greatest catcher ever, well I just laffed that one off.
Or does not the era matter with him?
<< <i>How long is that list of players better than Raffy at first?
I dunno why don't you tell us?
and as for piazza being the greatest catcher ever, well I just laffed that one off.
Or does not the era matter with him? >>
Now who's spinning? If you'd read, you'd see I posts 'greatest HITTING catcher ever'. There is NO debating that fact. No other catcher even comes close.
As far as players who played during Raffy's career I'd rather have at first?
-Mark McGwire
-Todd Helton
-Don Mattingly
-Mark Grace
-Albert Pujols
-Will Clark
-Jason Giambi
-Jim Thome
I would have taken any of these players in their primes over Raffy (and I am sure I am missing some).
If you were to pick first basemen of the last 20 years, are you going to seriously sit there and tell me you'd put Raffy anywhere near the top 10?
You cannot be serious about that.
Winpitcher, why are you so drunk on this Raffy kool aid? Are you that into mediocre players who stick around for 20 years? Or are you one of those fans who hops on whatever player's bandwagon is being hyped this week?
You boys left Gary Sheffield off of da list.
Now I see, when all else fails and you can'y answer a question (even as absurdly as you havebeen known to) you say nonsensical things like the above.
mediocre? 30 hr 100 rbi and 290 is mediocre? over, yes a lil less then 20 yr career. (same as biggio)
as for biggio the same era that helped palmiero certaintly helped him as well. why the change in heart there? Did biggio change the game in a way i am not aware of? and lastly your comment regarding piazza being the greatest catcher ever, please expand on that.
bandwagon? koolaide? your spinning.
SD
and as for your list, yes there are a few Id take over Palmiero what is the point?
<< <i>Chipper jones?
Mike piazza?
John franco?
Tom glavine
schilling
randy johnson
manny ramirez
brian giles >>
While we are at, can people comment on the HOF chances of the following?
Ruben Sierra
Bernie WIlliams
Gary Sheffield
Hideki Matsui
Alex Rodriguez
Tino Martinez
Derek Jeter
Jason Giambi
Jorge Posada
Mariano Rivera
Mike Mussina
Al Leiter
David Ortiz
Johnny Damon
Jason Varitek
David Wells
Regards,
The East Coast
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
And drop the name of Mark Grace off of the list of first basemen youd rather have than Raffy. Grace was a slap hitting first baseman who never had as many as 18 homers during the home run explosion years and never had a single 100-RBI year although he batted third. He never came anywhere close to the Home Run or RBI production that Raffy had. It was a mistake that the Cubs kept him instead of Raffy. But he was a media darling so they never bad mouthed him that much. He would have been a nice #2 hitter, but thats not usually what you are looking for in a first baseman.
Also, with regard to the first basemen you would have rather had, Raffy averaged 40 home runs and 118 RBI's over 11 seasons (if you annualize the strike year)(1993-2003). There isnt anyone on your list, with the exception of McGuire (Thome comes close but needs a couple more), that has had anything close to 11 years like that, especially during that time frame. Thats 11 years.
You have selected people that had some good years, but not 11 in a row like that. Pujols may in time have that, but we will have to see if he ends up like that or ends up like Eric Davis, Tony Conigliaro or Darryl Strawberry.
<< <i>I dont understand how people think Craig Biggio will be a first balloter if it took Ryne Sandburg three tries.
And drop the name of Mark Grace off of the list of first basemen youd rather have than Raffy. Grace was a slap hitting first baseman who never had as many as 18 homers during the home run explosion years and never had a single 100-RBI year although he batted third. He never came anywhere close to the Home Run or RBI production that Raffy had. It was a mistake that the Cubs kept him instead of Raffy. But he was a media darling so they never bad mouthed him that much. He would have been a nice #2 hitter, but thats not usually what you are looking for in a first baseman. >>
Couldn't agree more about both points.
Yes, I also find it hypocritical that some on this board flat out say no to Raffy, but yes to Biggio. I love Biggio as well and think he is deserving of the HOF because of his consistency and versatility, but he is not a first ballot HOF unless he gets those 3,000 hits. Maybe even then, he will not be a first ballot. He played in Houston (lack of coverage), and did not revolutionize his position like Alomar did and Ryno did even more. (Note: Not saying these two are the greatest 2B ever)
And this BS about him dominating his position is simply laughable. Ryno and Alomar were much better, although they did not turn out to be as durable.
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
Palmiero was considered a weak hitting firstbaseman in Chicago. How were they supposed to know he'd blossom into what he became
over 800 ab's with the Cubs they guy hit something like 24 hr's
But the Cubs should have done something when they realized Grace was just a singles and doubles hitter and they kept him much too long. Again, his hitting would have been ok if he were a #2 or #6 hitter, but not at a power hitting #3 spot or a power position such as first base.
<< <i>
as for biggio the same era that helped palmiero certaintly helped him as well. why the change in heart there? Did biggio change the game in a way i am not aware of? and lastly your comment regarding piazza being the greatest catcher ever, please expand on that.
bandwagon? koolaide? your spinning.
>>
What about my posts do you not understand? Palmiero was ALWAYS a middle of the pack guy at his position. There were always many other BETTER all around first basemen playing that Palmiero. Palmiero just stuck around longer than anyone else, so that means we should reward mediocre play?
The same cannot be said about Biggio. Starting his career as a catcher, his speed was such that the Astros didn't want that speed threat to deteiorate due to his catching, so they moved him to second base. Untill 2000 and his surgery, he was a legitimate speed threat, which not only gave him stolen base ability, but allowed him to turn many a single into doubles.
You talk about my 'spinning' when you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that in any given year during Raffy's career, there have always been a good number of first basemen who were much, much more valuable in the league than Palmiero. He's always been in the middle of the pack, never stood out, and just hung around long enough and did enough juice to hit 500+ home runs.
As far as Raffy not being a mediocre fielder, and you bringing up his gold glove status, let's not forget one of his three gold gloves came in a year he spent 2/3 of the season as the DH. If he truly were such a special fielder, or dominated his position in a way you contend he has, then he would easily have more than that.
His lack of anything resembling a chance at an MVP should speak volumes about his worth to the team as well. His best finish is one fifth, which is sad considering how much attention so-called 'power' guys typically get for MVP contention. Biggio not only matches that fifth place finish (once), but ups it one with a fourth place finish as well.
No you can't compare their numbers directly. Raffy is a juice induced home run hitter who started hitting home runs when Dr. Steroids showed up in Texas, Biggio is a true asset to the team not only behind the plate but also at second base...earning all-star nods at BOTH positions.
WP, it's apparent you love Raffy and his numbers and are completely incapable of taking them into context. Unable to comprehend that he's been a middle of the pack first baseman his entire career. You are so hung up on 500/3000 that you cannot look and see just how average he is.
I'll leave this discussion with this: Raffy is the fourth member of the 500 home run/3000 hit club, joining Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Eddie Murray. Would ANYONE say Raffy is as good as any one of them? Would anyone use Raffy in the same sentence, to say there are anywhere in the same league?
If he truly belonged in this club, then you would be able to sit there with a straight face and say Raffy is just as good as any one of those 3 players...but the fact of the matter is he DOESN'T.
Bernie WIlliams - No...spankee nation will be in a tizzy, but he's an average player at best.
Gary Sheffield - outside chance, though his steroid use and rage problems will discourage voters.
Hideki Matsui - too soon to tell...though it's unlikely to happen.
Alex Rodriguez - he could retire today and be in the hall in 5 years. anyone who doesn't vote for him should be stripped of their voting priveleges.
Tino Martinez - nice guy, but no way.
Derek Jeter - he'll get in because he's been so prominent in NY. Had he played his career in KC, he'd not even be a blip on the radar.
Jason Giambi - steroid use clouds his MVP season, and he's not going to get back to those numbers, so no.
Jorge Posada - no.
Mariano Rivera - first ballot HoFer
Mike Mussina - no
Al Leiter - no
<< <i>Palmiero was ALWAYS a middle of the pack guy at his position. >>
I don't consider top 5, or top 10 middle of the pack. You've argued that he was not the most dominant at his position and that is true, but mediocre, middle of the pack? That's going a little overboard.
<< <i>While we are at, can people comment on the HOF chances of the following? >>
Ruben Sierra- No
Bernie WIlliams- If he had stayed healthy but no
Gary Sheffield- Still has chance, dominated for awhile but never seemed to get enough credit
Hideki Matsui- No
Alex Rodriguez- 1st Ballot
Tino Martinez- No
Derek Jeter- 1st Ballot
Jason Giambi- No
Jorge Posada- Doubtful
Mariano Rivera- Yes
Mike Mussina- No
Al Leiter- No
David Ortiz- too early to tell
Johnny Damon- too early
Jason Varitek- too early
David Wells- No
I'd like to add Scott Rolen. By far the most dominating defensive third baseman of his era, if he can ever get healthy and put some more good offensive years I think his defense is good enough to get him in.
He's on pace for another 200 hit campaign.
MVP and ROY, single season hits record. Currently holding a .336 BA. 5 time all star, 4 gold gloves (soon to be 5). He won't get to 3000 hits...I've resigned myself to accept that fact. His playing for the mandatory 7 years in Japan really hurt those chances...but he's likely to end up in the neighborhood of 2500 hits and have no reason to think his career average would slip south of .315.
And does Griffey Jr. get in on the first ballot? He's quietly putting together another solid year this year (currently .290, 20 HR, 61 RBI), and if he can average 150 hits over the next 5 years, he'd be at 3000...upping that hack Raffy and joining the 600 HR/3000 hit club. If he averages 150 hits and 35 home runs over the next 5 years, he'd get to 700 HRs and 3000 hits...although I think that's asking a lot, especially seeing his injury problems the past few years. I can only imagine the pub he'd be facing every day if he were indeed closing in on that mark...700/3000 would be an incredible feat (one likely to be done by Arod, though).
Griffey is a no doubt first balloter. Everything he's doing now is just icing on the cake. Sad thing is he's still fairly young and if he could stay healthy he'll put some amazing numbers.
Winpitcher is correct...when we take Palmeiro's era into account, the same has to be done for all the players in his era, Biggio and Piazza included. I haven't done the yearly test on Biggio as I did with Palmeiro. To be fair to Palmeiro, he wasn't average at his position as he typically ranked 7th(in MLB) at his position during career. THat isn't dominating, but it isn't average. As for his fielding, you can just throw a blanket over him and plenty of other 1B, pick one, and you woulnd't miss a beat.
Even with the era adjustment I believe Piazza is the top hitting catcher, and that gets him in, even if he couldn't throw out the garbage. He isn't close to Bench overall.
Manny Ramirez will be a yes, with yearly league hitting rankings at 1,2,2,2,3,5,6,9,10 that look very Hall of Fameish.
When you look at Schilling's yearly ERA+ rankings, they are similar to Blyleven's, and with similar rankings in Innings too. FOr the people who like to add the post season stuff, then he will make it.
What about:
Fred McGriff
Harold Baines
Will Clark
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
My Auctions
I understand Ax believe me I understand.
Boy you were really reaching for some names Giambi? Grace? lol ok buddy you win.
Sd
Is that a promise AX?
please do
SD
ps I NEVER SAID HE DOMINATED ANYTHING........
Now continue your apinning ways on your "GOLF IS NO SPORT thread"
Im done with this BS
Harold Baines - should be a first ballot HoF...was a dominant DH, the best at his position (which is what the HoF is about...being the BEST at your profession.) What will keep him out are those ignorant voters who dislike the DH rule....even though it's a position defined by MLB. Do we discredit pitchers because (as a whole) they can't hit for beans and 'all' they do is pitch? They are certainly one-dimensional, right?
Will Clark - Great player cut short...didn't play at a high level long enough to attain Hall status.
Andre Dawson - unlikely
Dale Murphy - great hitter (one of the best of his era) who was cut down by a knee injury (the same type that's kept bonds out this season). Had he not sustained it, I think it's highly likely he'd have gone for 500 HRs. Combine that with his MVPs and he'd have been a first ballot guy for sure.
<< <i>Harold Baines - should be a first ballot HoF...was a dominant DH, the best at his position (which is what the HoF is about...being the BEST at your profession.) What will keep him out are those ignorant voters who dislike the DH rule. >>
So if Palmeiro had hurt his knee early in his career and became a DH he would have been a first ballot HOF. Interesting logic. Too bad he didn't get hurt. Too bad he was too good a defensive first baseman. If he had stone hands, he would have become a DH and been a first ballot HOFer. HMMMM..
HOF Quarterbacks Football
<< <i>
<< <i>Harold Baines - should be a first ballot HoF...was a dominant DH, the best at his position (which is what the HoF is about...being the BEST at your profession.) What will keep him out are those ignorant voters who dislike the DH rule. >>
So if Palmeiro had hurt his knee early in his career and became a DH he would have been a first ballot HOF. Interesting logic. Too bad he didn't get hurt. Too bad he was too good a defensive first baseman. If he had stone hands, he would have become a DH and been a first ballot HOFer. HMMMM.. >>
Had he hurt his knee, who's to say he'd have gotten to 3000 hits or 500 home runs?
Its easy to hypothesize, but since Raffy obviously wasn't seen as a superior first baseman (as evidenced by his pathetic number of all star appearances), he wasn't as great as those on the raffy bandwagon would make him out to be.
Derek Jeter, barring any serious injury, will be the first Yankee to get 3,000 hits. He would have done it on other teams too despite what Axtey says. Can you say SHOE IN?!?! Now for the snit retaliation.
<< <i><<Derek Jeter - he'll get in because he's been so prominent in NY. Had he played his career in KC, he'd not even be a blip on the radar.>>
Derek Jeter, barring any serious injury, will be the first Yankee to get 3,000 hits. He would have done it on other teams too despite what Axtey says. Can you say SHOE IN?!?! Now for the snit retaliation. >>
Not a snit, but let's be honest, how many years has Jeter been the most feared batter in the yankee lineup? He definitely gets a lot more looks than he would if he were the only good bat.