Palmeiro is a 2997 / 564
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in Sports Talk
He is just a game or two away from becoming only the 4th player in History to get 3000/500 in a career.
It will put him along side Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Eddie Murray as one of the greats, who was a good player for a very long, very consistant career.
And his is also 270 hits Higher than the closest Active players (Bonds - 2730, Biggio - 2729; Julio Franco- 2495) and They there are only 4 Active players in the Top 100 of all time Hits!!! Other players are HUNDREDS of hits behind him!
Way to go Raffe!
It will put him along side Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Eddie Murray as one of the greats, who was a good player for a very long, very consistant career.
And his is also 270 hits Higher than the closest Active players (Bonds - 2730, Biggio - 2729; Julio Franco- 2495) and They there are only 4 Active players in the Top 100 of all time Hits!!! Other players are HUNDREDS of hits behind him!
Way to go Raffe!
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And Axtey still doesn't belong on this board.
<< <i>And Axtey still doesn't belong on this board. >>
Why because I actually contribute to discussions where you just spam up the forums with your non-sensical garbage? Because I actually collect cards? From all I can tell, you have one group of cards (that yankee UD set).
<< <i>You forgot about my 1970 Topps complete set as well as several graded PSA cards and my vast Memorabilia Collection. >>
All of which you share no insight about.
All you do is come here, spam up the boards with your nonsense yankee loving garbage.
If anyone doesn't belong here, its YOU.
This board is not for posts about collecting. Of course you won't know that. I don't post about collecting here.
<< <i>This board is not for posts about collecting. Of course you won't know that. I don't post about collecting here. >>
No but this board is for adding useful information into discussions...something you fail to do ever.
<< <i>Can there be a thread about baseball that doesn't involve a Gemmy/Axtell pissing match? There's nothing wrong with a good disagreement, I've had my share with Axtell as have most here, but every thread I open has you two arguing like an old married couple. >>
All I want to know is which one's Archie and which one's Edith
Steve
P.S. and by the way Axtell, Palmeiro most definitely belongs, and will be, in the Hall of Fame!
Palmy is a shoe-in for the Hall
THis does not mean I believe he belongs in the HOF, but I understand people's mentality about those numbers regardless of what I believe.
The best analogy I can come up with is this. Remember when the year 2000 was labeled as the new millenium? People were excited in 1999 about the new millenium coming up and set up big new year's eve parties. In reality and according to the law of Roman numbers, the year 2000 was actually the last year of the 1990's. The new Millenium started in 2001. Why? Because the Roman calendar does not have the concept of zero. That's the reason, I don't want to explain this here right now, but trust me on this.
The truth did not matter, people celebrated the year 2000 is if it was the coming of the new millenium.
Back to Palmeiro, it does not matter that a bunch of us baseball staticians know how low Palmeiro ranked year in and year out among his peers, as long as there are a slew of people who believe those career numbers to be magic without regard to context, then he will get in the HOF.
Its all about human perception, not reality.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Only 25 players in History have ever gotten 3000 hits.
(something even Ted Willams, Babe Ruth, Frank Robinson, Lou Gerhig, Joe DiMaggio, Reggie Jackson, Ernie Banks, and Mickey Mantle NEVER could do!)
Only 20 players in History have ever gotten 500 Home runs.
(something that Lou Gerhig, Joe DiMaggio, Carl Yastrzemski, Stan Musial, Willie Stargell, Cal Ripken, Duke Snider, and Johnny Bench could not do!)
Palmeiro is 15th ALL-TIME in RBIs. (ahead of Cal Ripken, Reggie Jackson, Joe DiMaggio, Pete Rose, Roberto Clemente, Goerge Brett, Mark McGwire, Mike Schmidt, etc)
*and will likely pass Ted Williams and Barry Bonds this season!
Palmeiro is 28th ALL-TIME in Runs scored. (ahead of Cal Ripken, Reggie Jackson, Eddie Murray, George Brett, Mike Schmidt, etc)
*and will likely pass Mickey Mantle this season!
He has a very respectable Career for 20 years, and appears to have Out performed many of the ones we consider the greatest of the game, so I just do not understand how you can say that he is not a HOF caliber player.
Raffie has also been a fine fielding firstbasemen all these yr's
Random thought -- his career earnings are pretty nice
Salaries
1987 Chicago Cubs $62,500
1988 Chicago Cubs $90,000
1989 Chicago Cubs $212,000
1990 Texas Rangers $300,000
1991 Texas Rangers $1,475,000
1992 Texas Rangers $3,850,000
1993 Texas Rangers $4,550,000
1994 Baltimore Orioles $5,406,603
1995 Baltimore Orioles $4,906,603
1996 Baltimore Orioles $5,406,603
1997 Baltimore Orioles $5,337,021
1998 Baltimore Orioles $6,515,828
1999 Texas Rangers $8,849,931
2000 Texas Rangers $8,620,921
2001 Texas Rangers $9,000,000
2002 Texas Rangers $8,712,986
2003 Texas Rangers $9,000,000
2004 Baltimore Orioles $4,000,000
Career (may be incomplete) $86,295,996
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
He's never dominated a season, just been a good player for a long time...guess we need to rename the hall of fame the 'hall of the very good'?
<< <i>Hopefully he gets his 3000th hit soon so I'm not subjected to the daily dronings from ESPN about what a supposedly 'great' player he is.
He's never dominated a season, just been a good player for a long time...guess we need to rename the hall of fame the 'hall of the very good'? >>
there are lots of players in the hall (and some going in soon) that did not have a single great season, but were Consistant, had long healthy careers, and were able to do things that the supposed "greats" like Williams, Mantle and Ruth could not even do.
so Yes, we better make some room.
<< Hopefully he gets his 3000th hit soon so I'm not subjected to the daily dronings from ESPN about what a supposedly 'great' player he is.>>
God forbid...I understand it might be very traumatic for you, maybe as much as my Yankee spamming.
yes I know about putting it into context...............
when I do that i see just how remarkable the guy has been.
sd
<< <i>so 49 homers and 148 in a season aint great huh? I suggest some here go and do a google search and type in raffies name. look at his career.
yes I know about putting it into context...............
when I do that i see just how remarkable the guy has been.
sd >>
Why do google?
baseball-reference.com is all you need.
It will show you he's never finished first in home runs, RBI, or batting average.
He's finished second in homers a couple of times, but he's never even finished top 10 in MVP voting.
That should tell you all you need to know his relative value within the league in his era.
WRONG!!
first year I looked at shows me otherwise:
Finished in the top 5 this year do i need to look further?
<< <i> He has never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting?? >>
<< <i>first year I looked at shows me otherwise: >>
3 top ten finishes one at 11.
Me thinks that Axtey needs a new baseball reference.
<< <i>He has never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting??
WRONG!!
first year I looked at shows me otherwise:
Finished in the top 5 this year do i need to look further? >>
My bad...I was checking baseball reference and was in the wrong section.
But come on, he's finished 5th, 6th, and 8th, and that's it?
Steve
<< <i> that explains everything! You mean all this time you have been looking at ORLANDO PALMIERO'S stats? I agree, he will never make the HOF. >>
As far this MVP thing goes two modern players that compare that are in, or will be in the HOF and neither of them has close to 600 homers.
Boggs - 4 top 10 finishes the highest was 4th
Moliter - 4 top 10 finishes he did finish 2nd in 93
Eddie Murray probably the most comparable player also never won an MVP.
<< <i>
<< <i> that explains everything! You mean all this time you have been looking at ORLANDO PALMIERO'S stats? I agree, he will never make the HOF. >>
As far this MVP thing goes two modern players that compare that are in, or will be in the HOF and neither of them has close to 600 homers.
Boggs - 4 top 10 finishes the highest was 4th
Moliter - 4 top 10 finishes he did finish 2nd in 93
Eddie Murray probably the most comparable player also never won an MVP. >>
The difference is Boggs dominated the AL in batting and OBP...palmiero hasn't dominated a single category, not even for one year.
And when a player's induction to the hall is based upon using other's stats, and can't stand on his own, that's when you know he doesn't belong.
Saying things like 'well he's not the crappiest guy in the hall. this guy is crappier!'
<< <i>And when a player's induction to the hall is based upon using other's stats, and can't stand on his own, that's when you know he doesn't belong. >>
3000/600 speak for themselves. The arguement should end there, but you are bringing out other issues so I'm showing they don't matter.
<< <i>
<< <i>And when a player's induction to the hall is based upon using other's stats, and can't stand on his own, that's when you know he doesn't belong. >>
3000/600 speak for themselves. The arguement should end there, but you are bringing out other issues so I'm showing they don't matter. >>
No, I've conceded he will (Unfortunately) make it into the hall, as so many fans and voters make it in because of this sports' obssession with round numbers like that. Is he more valuable as a player in his era than say Dale Murphy? What about Harold Baines?
Just because I understand his being elected, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
<< <i> Is he more valuable as a player in his era than say Dale Murphy? What about Harold Baines? >>
I think so. Baines played a long time and some good numbers but he didn't play long enough to reach the magical numbers. Murphy was great, but if he's in then so is Mattingly. There's a reason 3000 hits 500 home runs is celebrated - because it's special. 500 homers will soon be watered down but 3000 hits is still an amazing accomplishment and I think is deserving of HOF status.
<< <i> Just because I understand his being elected, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. >>
Good, when you get to the Hall of Fame in the future and see that he is there, you can leave and make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out. The rest of us can enjoy his hard and consistent work.
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
I quickly read most of your posts but didn't see anything about the possibility of the guy using roids
Perhaps any Cub fan can chime in but i clearly remember when he got traded the one knock on the guy and the reason the Cubs moved him was because of his lack of power escpecially at the firstbase position. If you look at his first several years im sure you'll see that in his stats.
The guy obviously deserves to get in if you just look at his overall #'s , i just think it sucks if any of these guys get in because of the use of drugs
P.S wasn't Raffy a teammate of Pudge and Juan Gonzalez for a while in Texas ?
<< <i> P.S wasn't Raffy a teammate of Pudge and Juan Gonzalez for a while in Texas ? >>
I won't get into the scientific analysis as to why Raffy is not a steroid user since most people on this board speak as experts on steroids when they are in fact some of the most ignorant people on earth.
Now, yes he was a teammate of those two players. Where is Gonzalez now? Where has he been in the past few years? This guy can't swing a bat without hurting himself. This is a clear case of steroid abuse. Juan Gonzalez is a natural ectomorph body type. This means that he has a thin, linear appearance. They often possess narrow waist, hips and shoulders. The ectomorph also has a low body fat percentage. When an ectomorph abuses (not I didn't utilize the words: USE) steroids, his tendons and ligaments simply cannot support it. Even with stretching and exercise, an ectomorph is more susceptible to injury than a mesomorph and endomorph (the two other body types)
And have you seen Pudge lately? Is this guy on an accelerated South Beach Diet? He has lost so much of that muscle from years past.
Raffy has past both of these players on an overall basis and although Pudge remains great and a HOF'er for his position, it remains to be seen what the future holds for him.
As you all know, I am for legalizing steroids for use via prescription by knowledgeable physicians, but these two players (Juan Gone and Pudge) exhibit symptoms of steroid use/abuse.
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
"According to the Elias Sports Bureau, Alex Rodriguez has had 20 or more home runs at the All-Star break in six straight seasons, tying the record held by Mark McGwire (1995-2000) and Rafael Palmeiro (1998-2003)."
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
But one cannot possibly look at his numbers objectively and see that his power numbers took a HUGE upswing after Dr. Steroid (Jose Canseco) arrived in Texas. Raffy had one kinda big HR year (mid 20s) but was averaging 18-22 HR's per year prior to Canseco showing up, that following season, a big boost in home run numbers.
Coincidence? If you believe in such things, sure.
That was put into context ...................
Here are the shares based on the actual votes that they received every year....
Murray is 19th all time at 3.33 MVP shares.
Palmeiro is 184th all time at 1.20 shares.
Bogg is also 184th all time at 1.20 shares.
Of course, MVP's are voted on by writers who are often ignorant on evaluation, so it can be flawed. Plus personal bias and dislike come into play, which makes Murray's high ranking thus the more impressive(writers hated him).
Boggs should have finished higher many times, there is obviously an ignorance in Bogg's value among writers, or Maybe they treated him extra harsh for his poor road stats. Palmeiro seems to be in the correct spot, as it is already shown where he ranked poorly among even his own position, let alone the entire league, on a yearly basis.
Nobody can change the mind of somebody who wishes a player of Palmeiro's career should be in the Hall. All one can do is just lay out where he ranks, and his rightful value of runs and wins. Some don't mind the poor dominance, some don't matter in light of the sustained very good career. That is almost a choice of ketchup or mustard to a lot of people.
One can't deny the MVP vote rankings(which of course is flawed towards some players), and one would have a very difficult time arguing with a WINShares formula, and an advanced linear weights with a CORRECT era adjustment.
Also, one can easily get lost in the round numbers such as 3,000 hits. Just because a player gets 3,000 hits it doesn't make him better than one who doesn't. Total hits is an EXTREMELY POOR tool of evaluation. 2,700 hits and a .320 AVG is far better than 3,000 hits and a .288 batting average. That is an elementary example of a complex analysis, but it should get the idea home.
Can Palmeiro still be a Hall of Famer even if he lacks the value of McGwire, Thomas, Murray, Brett, Schmidt, Rose, Bonds etc.?? Sure. I actualy don't mind if he is. I just mind when people say he belongs with the aforementioned based on his hitting stats, because that would mean they are leaving out tons of factors that allowed those hitting stats, or aren't seeing what really matters in the hitting stats(for example overvaluing total hits).
I find it idiotic when people say "he has 3,000 hits and 500 homer runs and even Babe Ruth and Ted Williams didn't do that!" Those are seriously flawed arguments when presented like that. It is presented as if he is soo good that even the best two hitters in the universe didn't do it. It doesn't remotely mean that. It just means all the factors were in align to allow it, all of which I'm not going to bother to list as it should be known already. It also wouldn't remotely mean as much if many others had the opportunity to play in the live ball era, as many more people would be in that club, plain and simple.
Problem with that is his PEERS do not VOTE!
The BBWAA does.
SD
He never dominated.
He never was near the top of home runs or BA for any extended period of time.
People are fascinated that he's got 500+ HR's and 3000 hits.
If Raffy is allowed in for being very good for a long time, then there needs to be an immediate voting in of Jack Morris.
Ax that has already been done, it was changed prolly 20 yrs ago or so.
<< <i>When Raffy gets voted in, they need to change the Hall fo Fame to the 'Hall of Very Good Players'
Ax that has already been done, it was changed prolly 20 yrs ago or so. >>
Really by who?
I just went back through the last 20 years of HoFers, and can only come up with a handful of players who are marginal:
Gary Carter
Dave Winfield
Kirby Puckett
Bid McPhee
Don Sutton
Red Schoendienst
Gaylord Perry
Phil Rizzuto
Jim Bunning
Many of these are veteran's selections, and a couple are plain curious (Gary Carter?)
Not too bad...but I suspect that the quality pool of the HoF is going to seriously dillute the honor of the Hall in the next few years.
your list proves that out.
you forgot a few names like rizzuto, reese, perez, etc etc etc.
the hall of fame is not just for the ruths and cobbs and youngs of the baseball universe.
timing is everything.
what part of this do you not understand?
I for one have never said that raffie was an all time great.
i have simply stated that with the career that he has it would include a HOF induction. You seem to think that many of the posters that think that he is worthy think that he is the second coming of babe ruth. he is not he is raffie palmiero and he is just what he is. no more no less.
getting back to the point. does it matter how a guy was selected? be it writers or vet commitee? it was watered down long before raffie's name came up.
end
<< <i>
I for one have never said that raffie was an all time great.
>>
Then he doesn't belong. Thank you for proving my point.
u claim that many on your list of 9 were vet com selections.....when actually it is 3 of 9
steve
sd
Ok, Palmeiro had 2,922 hits and Edgar had 2,247. Based on everybody's view that they value the longevity and don't mind that it took Palmeiro 2,890 more at bats to get to the 3,000 club(2,922
Edgar was 675 hits shorts of Palmeiro, and 2,890 at bats short of Palmeiro. Well, in order for Edgar to catch Palmeiro in hits in the same amount of at bats all he would have to do is bat .233 in the extra 2,890 at bats. So why is everybody wetting their shorts over Palmeiro's 3,000 hits? When you compare him to a guy from his era like Martinez, all it really means is that Palmeiro's value in batting average is a mere .233 batting average over 2,890 at bats, compared to that of Edgar Martinez.
Which leads me to ask, how on earth can anybody justify the philosophy of turning Edgar Martinez from an also ran HOFer into a lock HOFer if he had continued to play and bat .233 over his next 2,890 at bats to achieve 3,000 hits? What part of a .233 batting average value(over 2,890 at bats), above what he had already achieved in his career, make him a Hofer just because it lead him to 3,000 hits??? And on the reverse, how does a .233 batting average over 2,809 at bats make Palmeiro a lock Hall of Famer??
By the way, Edgar's had a .515 SLG%, Palmeiro .517. Edgar dusted him in OB%. You see, things arent' always what they seem.
By the way, how hard would it have been for Ted Williams to join the 3,000, 500 club?? Well, if he had the extra 2,397 at bats that Palmeiro had over him, all he would have had to do in those extra at bats would be to bat .111. Are you kidding me? ONE ELEVEN!!
How about Frank Thomas? A .248 batting average over the 3,252 at bat difference gets him on par with Palmeiro too...Plus he slugs at .567 compared to Palmeiro's .515. On Base percentage isn't even in the same universe between them.
The one thing that those players have is that they were among the very best or best as htiters in their primes. And, in order to achieve those totals milestones, they could play as a below average player to achieve them with ease.
Then all the hitters who had the unfortunate disadvantage of playing from the 60's to 80's, how many more would be in those totals clubs given the same At bats, AND in the same HITTER FRIENDLY environments??
IF one likes very good longevity, and doesn't care he was annually the 7th best first baseman fine. However, if you ever hear anyone say...."you can't argue with the numbers(totals numbers)," well, it is quite evident that you can!
sd
you do make fine arguments though.
edited to add: Skin using your logic here, then does Aaron truly own the HR mark? He did have many more ab's then Ruth.
<< <i>Palmiero did it, the others did not. that is the bottom line >>
Very true. Baseball admires longevity and the ability to achieve major goals. 3000 hits is a dream of every player and if you make it your a lock for the HOF. Ex. .R.Alomar wanted to get there but he didn't have anything left in the tank and now is not a lock HOFer. There are two ways to make into the hall, be great for extended period of time, or be really good for a long time. I'm just looking forward to the debate 10 years from now when Julio Franco is withing 50 hits of 3000 of whether he belongs in the hall.
Like hitting streaks too. A guy could conceivably have a 60 game hitting streak, but bat .250. Another guy over those same 60 games may bat .390 and he will get totally ignored because he didn't get a hit in one of those games.
Seeing on how many fans seem to appreciate Palmeiro, I geuss putting him into the Hall wouldn't be a bad thing, as that is what the Hall is for.
The Hall of Fame means different things to different people, and it is hard to force ones view on another based on longevity or greatness, as there really is no guideline for that. I just try to lay it out to put it into perspective. If one is interested in baseball, it is good to hear things put into perspective aside from what is typically heard from talk radio etc... These discussions are what make baseball what it is.