Are Jim Kaat, Blyleven, or Tommy John Hall of Famers?
Skinpinch
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in Sports Talk
After the resounding support for Palmeiro for the Hall, it got me to wonder what the posters here think of the Blyleven, Kaat or Tommy John's candidacy. Wheras Palmeiro doesn't have a lot of hitters that mirror his resume, these pitchers sure do. They meet all the requirements that the Palmeiro backers have espoused, yet if I recall most people always say NO because they just weren't dominate enough in their prime or among the very best (Seavers, Carlton etc...) to merit consideration. Just like Palmeiro was not near dominant enough in his career and rank among the best of his eras. Heck, many people have always said NO to Don Sutton for similar reasons (which he was actually pretty dominant though).
Tommy John's ERA+ finsihes 3,4,4,6,6,7, 10.
Kaat ERA+ 4,4,7,7
Blyleven ERA+ 1,2,4,4,5,6,8,9,10
Palmeiro equivalent measure is OPS+. His finishes were 3,5,6,9,9,10
The question is, I would like to see how many posters are man enough to admit that they said John, Kaat, or Blyleven don't belong in the Hall, and that Palmeiro did. I don't recall any support for John or Kaat(some for Blyleven). I only recall two people who think Palmeiro didn't belong. Let the two talking faces begin....
I won't be back on the computer until later, so I am curious to see what happens here.
Tommy John's ERA+ finsihes 3,4,4,6,6,7, 10.
Kaat ERA+ 4,4,7,7
Blyleven ERA+ 1,2,4,4,5,6,8,9,10
Palmeiro equivalent measure is OPS+. His finishes were 3,5,6,9,9,10
The question is, I would like to see how many posters are man enough to admit that they said John, Kaat, or Blyleven don't belong in the Hall, and that Palmeiro did. I don't recall any support for John or Kaat(some for Blyleven). I only recall two people who think Palmeiro didn't belong. Let the two talking faces begin....
I won't be back on the computer until later, so I am curious to see what happens here.
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And you didn't specifically mention him, but I'm on the fence with Jack Morris, slightly leaning toward eventual induction.
For the record, I give an absolute YES to Blyleven, and put John and Kaat very close with Palmeiro...dominance just wasn't there. They just don't compare to the typical HOFer.
The difference between these three and Raffy is that Raffy is still playing and will have fresh stats going into his first election. Also "almost" 300 wins is not the same as 550+ home runs and 3000+ hits.
These three have been on the ballot forever. If they have not been elected by now they never will be. Especially with the new veterans/players committee not voting in anyone anymore.
<< <i>No, no and no.
The difference between these three and Raffy is that Raffy is still playing and will have fresh stats going into his first election. Also "almost" 300 wins is not the same as 550+ home runs and 3000+ hits.
These three have been on the ballot forever. If they have not been elected by now they never will be. Especially with the new veterans/players committee not voting in anyone anymore. >>
I would argue that 300 wins is a far, far more difficult task than hittin 550+ home runs (especially in today's inflated power number era).
To get 300 wins, you'd have to win 20 games per year for FIFTEEN years.
That being said, none of these three deserve it. They had (for their time) mediocre career ERAs (in the 3.30 range), and just over .500 winning percentages, and none of the three ever dominated.
Jack Morris was a great pitcher, and in my opinion, deserves induction. Had he played in a major market (LA, NY) he would be roundly supported as a great pitcher who dominated a 10 year period of the 80s like no other. A much better career win percentage (.577).
However, it's unfortunate he will never be inducted.
When he retired, he was #3 in strikeouts (3,700+), with the best curveball in history. If he'd been on better teams, he would EASILY have won 300 games!
Steve
3) The cluttering of the 500 Home Run club in this era is well documented, no need to rehash that.
4) 3,000 hits is a little tougher to come by than 500 home runs. But remember TOTAL HITS is a poor measure of ability. It is very much tied into whoever has the most at bats. That being said, there are 18 post WWII 3,000 hit members, 19 when Palmeiro joins. So even if those were taken at face value, it still isn't as impressive as the 288 wins.
5)the proper measuring sticks to evaluate the pitchers, for a quick and dirty study like this is ERA+ and OPS+. So if Palmeiro is clamored for induction, and your philosophy consists of the importance of longevity(rather than being great) then those thee pitchers actually have a stronger case than Palmeiro for meriting Hall of Fame induction, especially Blyleven and his glamour strikeout totals. Based on the evidence, it would not be wise to usher Palmeiro in, and not those three pitchers.
Winpitcher, I will respond to your posts when you gain a little more knowledge in these areas.
what??? 4 guys is clutter?
1 Sosa
2 mc gwire
3 palmerio
4 griffey
thats clutter?
the era between 1959 and 1969 saw many guys reach that mark
where do you get your info from?
you must be assuming that more guys are going to join that club, until they do it is not clutter.
now as a disclaimer did you write what you meant? or must I now wait for you to clarify?
Steve D
So should you put the tail between your legs now, or shall we wait a few minutes for you to digest that?
denwd, that is a respectable opinion. You like to honor guys that did something significant to merit being remembered, wheter it is via longevity or greatness. I have a friend who is a big Bill Buckner fan and he keeps campaigning for him because he has close to 3,000 hits. I tell him that he doesn't quite measure up to others in there, but there is nothing wrong with you carrying on the stories about him and putting him in your own hall of fame.
Hint number 3 of your line
skinpinch you are not the sharpest guy that i have ever come across, that is for sure. you like to act elitist and intelligent, my take? your not that smart.
W H E R E !!! where in that post did you say that????????
July 3rd, 4:28 PM "Cubfan, I figured that would be a topic somebody would hit on. A few things...1)wins aren't the best measurement, but we will use them for this point anyway. 2)Do you realize how few post WWII pitchers have 300 wins? Only 9 have done it, and not many more on the horizon. So to be only 12 wins away from that mark is virtually no difference, and is far more impressive than being in the 550 club twelve years from now. Blyleven and John would rank 10th and 11th in post WWII wins!"
For pete's sake, is that clear enough? When I do take the time to write things down, you can edit it if you wish, with your payment being the knowledge you would have gained.
Now just stop being silly. You just are going to get put on the pay no mind list.
denwd, Fame is a good word. Buckner always gets the blame for that era, but everyone forgets that the bullpen had already blown the lead before that error occurred. Bob Stanley sure is not remembered fondly by the Red Sox faithful.
your claim that the 500 hr club is getting cluttered
i replied ONLY to that
what you said before or after did not enter into my reply.
i did not thinki had to read your entire post over and over when you started a new paragraph.
understand?
edited to add you said the 550 remark BRFORE line 3 I only read line 3 and was only replying to that line.
So, do you like the longevity, the dominance, a combination, or on an extemem case by case basis? Do you like to put a guy in that is similar to others? Do you even care about putting numbers into context
Go ahead, talk on topic.
<< <i>Should Ichiro's Japan stats count since he has shown that he is very apt at handling MLB pitching and that it is obvious he could have done that all along?
Go ahead, talk on topic. >>
Ichiro will make it into the Hall on his US stats alone.
And I don't think that a mediocre player who sticks around for 25 years should be awarded, nor should a flash in the pan who has 2 or 3 great seasons be rewarded with a plaque in the hall, either.
I think the hall SHOULD be an exclusive club.
isnt this ichiro's 4 th year? what if he tanks now for the next 6?
Thanks for the link! I can see there are only a few borderline HOFers that are being considered, its not like flooding the HOF with excellent but not great players as some people fear.
I particularly like Mattingly's and Morris' chances to get in.
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<< <i>denwd1,
Thanks for the link! I can see there are only a few borderline HOFers that are being considered, its not like flooding the HOF with excellent but not great players as some people fear.
I particularly like Mattingly's and Morris' chances to get in. >>
Mattingly will never get in....Morris won't get in because he played in such a small baseball market.
What is it with Yankee fans and their thinking that any player who wore pinstripes and had a couple good seasons should be in the hall?
Whassup with an ignoramus who makes the above statement?
I"d bounce a few that are there as well, if that was possible. Maz, Sutton and Niekro come to mind. Lindstrom, Tinker, Maranville, Rizzuto, Doerr, Youngs, and probably a dozen more as well.
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<< <i><<Morris won't get in because he played in such a small baseball market.>>
Whassup with an ignoramus who makes the above statement? >>
What's up with you being so plain lame that you add NOTHING to a thread other than ridiculous statements like this. Oh wait, you are the spam boy...you NEVER add anything of worth to a thread!
Jeez man you really need to grow up and realize that there is a big market BIAS which leaves a lot of deserving players out in the cold if they didn't play for a big market team, and likewise, the same bias promotes players and get people thinking they should be in the hall just because they played for a big market team (Mattingly, Munson, others).
Just because you are so wrapped up in your blind yankee 'fandom' (at least you say), doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
If Morris is so deserving, then why isn't he in already?
<< <i>If Morris is so deserving, then why isn't he in already? >>
good question? he should be.
If the Hall of Fame is basically a plaque and short bio of the player, with the true highlight being the big ceremony when elected(and the boastfullness of being a HOF), then it shouldn't make things too hard or complicated if you add more players into the Hall of Fame with slightly different recognition.
The hall of fame should have some sort of Honorable Mention. There always seems to be these guys that are brought up that everyone wants inducted. Well it wouldn't be too hard for the Hall of Fame to create an Honorable Mention list and display for each decade(with a short blurb about the player), and then have an interactive computer screen below the display where you can touch the players name and see pictures and learn more about the player.
This keeps the prestige alive for the guys that do get elected with ceremony etc..., and it doesn't neglect the guys that deserve to be remembered for the "Fame" that they once possessed.
Will it bring more problems/debates? Maybe. You still may have guys clamoring for the actual election, but if they don't make the vote, then they will still be remembered.
Take Munson for example. One guy said they did have a display on him, so even though he wasn't elected, he is remembered as he was worth remembering. You can't have a big display for everyone, but there are a lot of creative people out there who can figure something out.
<< <i>The last time I went to the Hall of Fame was seventeen years ago. I'm not sure what has changed since then, but the guys who are enshrimed just basically have that plaque to honor them. The greater players had some displays of course. But, it seems that the biggest thing about getting elected was the actual ceremony and speech etc.... Once a player is in, then he basically becomes a name and a plaque to be remembered by, which didn't create too much 'Awe' when looked upon. >>
There some added perks -
Free lifetime admission to the Hall which includes a 25% discount in the gift shop.
A key to the private Executive washroom.
The right to have "HOF" after their name on business cards, like MD. "What's a HOF?" "A whole divided by two."
<< <i>Morris won't get in because he played in such a small baseball market. >>
If that's the case, then how did Kirby Puckett get enshrined?
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Morris won't get in because he played in such a small baseball market. >>
If that's the case, then how did Kirby Puckett get enshrined?
Steve >>
Only thing I can guess is he was popular as the 'good guy' who made people laugh, and played the game with a lot of energy, who had his career cut short by his eye disease.
The fact he was so prevalent during their playoff runs helps, too.
Tommy John's ERA+ finsihes 3,4,4,6,6,7, 10.
Kaat ERA+ 4,4,7,7
Blyleven ERA+ 1,2,4,4,5,6,8,9,10
Your numbers do not begin to tell the whole story. Personally I think Blyleven is an easy HOFer. The other two pitchers have a case. I would put Kaat in before John. Katt would have a won the A.L. Cy Young in 66, but that was the last year there was only one award-Koufax won. He he had a tremendous first half in 72 (10-2, ERA barely above 2) but broke his leg and missed the rest of the year.
Personally, I would keep the juicers out.
Juicers: never.
Kaat and John were good players for a very long time but if you let mediocre players like Biggio and Larkin in for showing up for several thousand games, let those two in as well.
Although I wouldn't any of them. Not Morris either.
Mattingly would get a longer look from me only b/c I lived in the NY market while he played and he inspired genuine Jeter-at-his-peak fear in a Yankee despiser like myself.
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Nuff said.
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Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
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<< <i>Ozzie Smith HOF = Bill Mazeroski HOF = Jim Kaat HOF
Nuff said. >>
Yeah, except defense actually matters for two of the positions listed and is pretty much irrelevant for the third. Putting in the best defensive pitcher - and even that's debatable, as I think Greg Maddux would have a claim - is... well, not a good idea. Yeah, he won a bunch of Gold Gloves. Whoop dee doo.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
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<< <i>Ozzie Smith HOF = Bill Mazeroski HOF = Jim Kaat HOF
Nuff said. >>
There are some people who believe that you have not said Nuff.
<< <i>So you want a pitcher who can't field his position?
I want a pitcher who can stop the other team from scoring runs. There are others not in the Hall-of-Fame that did that better throughout their careers than Kaat (including Tommy John) -- there's no middle infielders in history who did it better than Mazeroski and Smith. (And Mazeroski only made it because of the Veteran's Committee, proving he was below the standards set by the writer's)
<< <i>So you want a pitcher who can't field his position?
Yeah, that's what I said. Not.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ozzie Smith HOF = Bill Mazeroski HOF = Jim Kaat HOF
Nuff said. >>
There are some people who believe that you have not said Nuff. >>
I made a far more detailed case here.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
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<< <i>Palmeiro is tainted, I believe he used HGH and I wouldn't vote for him to save my mother - same boat with Sosa, McGwuire, Bonds and Clemens among others >>
Not trying to start anything, but why is it not okay for steroid users to be considered for the hall, but pitchers who threw spitballs, shineballs, etc. are allowed in? Also, many players back in the day did try things to gain an advantage over other players, even if they didnt work, they still tried. That shows, that if steroids were around back then, they probably would have used them.
Basically what I am trying to get at, is that players have been trying to "cheat", or gain a competitive advantage for a hundred years. Why are steroid users treated differently from everyone else who tried to cheat before them?
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<< <i>
<< <i>Palmeiro is tainted, I believe he used HGH and I wouldn't vote for him to save my mother - same boat with Sosa, McGwuire, Bonds and Clemens among others >>
Not trying to start anything, but why is it not okay for steroid users to be considered for the hall, but pitchers who threw spitballs, shineballs, etc. are allowed in? Also, many players back in the day did try things to gain an advantage over other players, even if they didnt work, they still tried. That shows, that if steroids were around back then, they probably would have used them.
Basically what I am trying to get at, is that players have been trying to "cheat", or gain a competitive advantage for a hundred years. Why are steroid users treated differently from everyone else who tried to cheat before them? >>
I think there's a huge difference between a player throwing an illegal spitball, that gives him an occasional advantage, as opposed to a player injecting drugs into himself that gives him an advantage on every single play.
Also all of the players were aware of the ball "doctoring" and could complain to the umpires and get the ball thrown out. Nothing you could do when someone shows up at spring training with 20-30 lbs more muscle.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Palmeiro is tainted, I believe he used HGH and I wouldn't vote for him to save my mother - same boat with Sosa, McGwuire, Bonds and Clemens among others >>
Not trying to start anything, but why is it not okay for steroid users to be considered for the hall, but pitchers who threw spitballs, shineballs, etc. are allowed in? Also, many players back in the day did try things to gain an advantage over other players, even if they didnt work, they still tried. That shows, that if steroids were around back then, they probably would have used them.
Basically what I am trying to get at, is that players have been trying to "cheat", or gain a competitive advantage for a hundred years. Why are steroid users treated differently from everyone else who tried to cheat before them? >>
I think there's a huge difference between a player throwing an illegal spitball, that gives him an occasional advantage, as opposed to a player injecting drugs into himself that gives him an advantage on every single play.
Also all of the players were aware of the ball "doctoring" and could complain to the umpires and get the ball thrown out. Nothing you could do when someone shows up at spring training with 20-30 lbs more muscle. >>
I understand what you're saying. But so basically now were going to say some cheating is ok but other cheating isn't? I think cheating is cheating no matter what it is. Guys like Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton, Whitey Ford, and many others should be viewed as cheaters in my book. They used an illegal pitch very often to gain a competitive advantage over hitters. If you're going to let them in the hall, then steroid users should be considered as well. It doesn't matter how many steroids you do, you still have to be able to hit the ball or throw the ball at the end of the day.
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