<< <i>I firmly believe that at this point, kuntryboy has no way to prove his ridiculous statements as being true.......as I stated earlier, let the backpeddling begin!
pretty soon, he and dabighurt will be fighting for crotch space..... >>
People who "get" my posts know this Kuntrytroll and I are actually quite different!
kuntryboy> In all honesty, I don't take any of this personally. You just confuse me a great deal. It seems you recognize many of the reasons why I would choose not to grade my cards with PSA. But the impression I get is that price is most important to you. Important enough to overcome many of the problems you yourself have pointed out regarding PSA's output for the last 12-18 months. Based on my experience and that of the advanced collectors I talk to, more and more people are becoming disillusioned with PSA for these same reasons. And with 1970s stuff, PSA doesn't command enough of a premium to overcome these problems. In my experience, gradeflation and politics are having a dramatic effect on holder value of PSA-graded cards.
As for my SGC-graded 1974 set that I'm working on. . . actually, I'm extremely comfortable doing it in SGC holders. I've actually completed three large sets in PSA holders, 1972 (twice) and 1975. And because of PSA's issues (mentioned above), it got to be no fun. Since I've begun the 74 set in a different holder, I've noticed that the retention rate of cards purchased on eBay is dramatically higher. I find that when I submit cards now, the grades I receive are very much in line with what I pick up from dealers and on eBay. Basically, they're succeeding for me in areas where PSA failed for me. Right now, I'm about 20% of the way done on the 74 set and the average grade is 94.27. If you (or anyone else) is coming out for National and would like to look at what I have so far, I'm sure we can make arrangements.
I dare say much of PSA dominance comes not from superiority, but rather, the fact that they have been around so long as a monopoly, that one fears going against the grain, for fear of loss. Those days are probably behind us now, and acceptance of certain companies can only grow. Yes, the set registry is a huge huge bonus for PSA, but the day will come when sets can be compared across slabs.
How old are all of you folks, anyway? When do the estate sales on all your registry sets flood the market?
Daeyel
Cynical Realist
Banned from the Beckett boards! Do you want to know me?
-- Why do all threads like this these days turn into nose-thumbing contests between kuntryboy and someone else?
-- SGC is a fine grading company, and they have their coin side to ensure they aren't going to dry up and blow away, which GAI may well do if they don't get their customer service act together. They are no better or worse than PSA in terms of grading quality or consistency, in my opinion, with scale and market dominance being the main differences.
-- PSA and SGC each have their quirks that you have to learn and live with. They each have had their embarrassing lapses of quality control. If more examples come to mind with PSA, it's because PSA handles more volume and has more of everything than other graders, good and bad.
-- PSA is my grader of choice. I have cast my lot with PSA, and it's too late to turn back now, but I recognize SGC as a quality competitor. And I'm glad there is one, because I don't want to pay $30 for 45-day turnaround to grade a common.
-- SGC holders are a bit classier than PSA's, in my opinion. I always thought so, but I've come to like the PSA slab.
-- I have no problem at buying a card in an SGC holder if it's not for one of my registry sets. I have a couple dozen such cards. In most cases I paid less than the PSA equivalent goes for. That's fine with me. A couple of the pre-wars did better than the PSA versions I was watching at the time. I liked the ones in the SGC holders better. The cards, not the holders.
-- On the other hand, I have bought some SGC 96's and 98's that did not come close to what PSA 10's were fetching. These were much more modern. SGC 100's, though, I could merely watch as they soared into the stratosphere. I assume that's because PSA 10 might represent anything from 95 to 100, even 92 if a grader is having a bad day. With SGC 100, there is theoretically no question where it falls on the 1-100 scale.
-- Dave Forman quite vocally expressed his displeasure with PSA and converted most of his collection to SGC holders. He sold off the rest; I bought a small piece of it. Shortly thereafter, SGC announced he was their new president. All part of the same plan? Probably.
Hi Al Nice write up - good points. It would be interesting if a true statistical analysis were done on the companies with respect to normalizing the priceguides.
DGF As usual, incredible depth on graded that would otherwise go over my head.
JR Also, nice write up also. BTW, doesn't Foreman have a brother who is a dealer?
<< <i>BTW, doesn't Foreman have a brother who is a dealer? >>
Yeah, Steve Foreman. There is the occasional (and inevitable) conspiracy theory. I remember something being floated on the various card forums by Steve Verkman about a year ago, but Sean Skeffington at SGC has forcefully stated that Steve Foreman is treated no differently than anyone else who submits cards to his brother's company.
koby> "PSA registry has 15087 sets. SGC registry has 909 sets. This is misleading however because guys like you, Southerncards, have 36 "sets" with only one or two cards in each set."
Do you find this to be a problem only with SGC's registry, or with PSA's registry as well? I would be curious to see how many sets on PSA's registry are less than 2% complete. I'd be curious to see the same for SGC's registry.
-----------------------------------
southerncards> what's your minimum grade? I saw some 96s that crashtestalex had up about a month ago that I passed on because I either already had examples I was happy with or I didn't care for the centering on his (based on the scans he provided). I do have a Wayne Twitchell in a 92 that became a dupe when I got a 96 on the one I submitted. PM me an address and I'll be glad to send it to you.
I would like to see that as a criteria for both set registries. I could understand if someone is just starting out, but in order to register a set, you really should be actively trying to complete the set. If a collector has only 5 cards out of a 660 card set, and it has been those same five cards for a year, that set should be deleted after 12 months.
Koby> I seem to remember someone at PSA posting a message that any sets below a certain threshhold of completion which had not been updated in a certain period of time would be removed. I can't see anything on it now, so perhaps this was a 1-time event. If so, it's probably time for wedding out the listings again.
This doesn't bother me nearly so much on SGC's registry because there just aren't enough sets listed for it to be a big deal. If I had to wade through say 10 or more sets with 1 card listed, I'm sure I would feel differently.
I think that was a policy that PSA mentioned but never enforced. If I remember correctly, any set less than 5% (?) complete that has not been worked on for 12 months would be eliminated. If they did that, it would upset a lot of people.
koby - I'm honored? that you took the time to look up my set in order to minimize the few cards I do have. You did get the "5" cards correct but your take on the grade is off. The 5 cards I have are:
SGC84 Stargell NM SGC 80 Reggie Jackson Ex/NM SGC92 Ron Santo NM/MT+ SGC92 All Star LF's (Rose/Murcer) NM/MT+ SGC86 Braves Mgr/coaches NM+
I'm sorry if the 5 cards are too few for you to characterize as a set. The 5 cards average out to a NM+ grade which is several grades higher than the "ex" you believe them to be. My collecting habits may differ from yours and that is why I have only 5 of the 660. I do as you stated have many sets with only 1 or 2 cards as they are cards that have come my way. For example, I'm not purposely looking for 52 Topps but a decent one came my way in a trade and I had it graded. That's the way I collect and the fun I get from my collections. I'm not out there to win a prize for the highest grade or to build a set before anyone else.
mcastaldi - I appreciate your offer. I'm building my sets card by card by trading through a trading website. I could easily go out and buy needed cards but I'm having fun trading for cards that fit my grading criteria. I enjoy submitting raw rather than buying already graded cards. If you'd like to work a trade, I'd be happy to talk further.
This is a fascinating post with many varied opinions. I personally am working on a 1960 Topps Psa set registry set, I completed it once but had to sell for personal reasons but am back to assembling it again. I just recentlt bought several SGC 96 cards that i'm hoping i may be able to cross to PSA 9's for my set. It's amazing how much cheaper an SGC96 sells for on e bay as opposed to a Psa 9.without the solid following of a set registry i'm not sure why anyone would have sent commons to SGC for grading. If it was'nt for the registry i would probably collect PSA,SGC & GAI for my sets, i don't believe there is a major difference in the 3 companies, grading is a very subjective issue and just the fact that most of the people here have cracked and resubmitted to Psa with varying grades makes the point very nicely.I like the Sgc holders although they seem to be a bit too large compared and Gai makes a very nice holder as well. With that being said if you're working on a graded set and money being the main issue no doubt Psa is going to bring the top dollar 99.9% of the time although mainly with the commons and minor stars. and in closing everyone have a great 4th of July. Phil
Having forgotten what GAI slabs look like, I decided to visit their site and take a look around. Couldn't find a picture on their site (no, I didn't check the registry). Seems like that would be something rather obvious to have in an easily accessible place. So I checked PSA's site as well - same thing. SGC? They have examples right on their main page.
I agree with Steve, though it is a bit premature to call 5 cards out of 700 a "set", the Registry is a great way to track your progress. I use it at my office, to check if I need a card or not for one of my sets ,when bidding on Ebay from there.
<< <i>GG even for rather large sets? like 72 etc? heck for 65 topps that would mean almost 100 cards.
many on the reg use it simply as a checklist and average grade chart. many could care less who or where they stand.
steve d >>
Not me Steve, I want to be KING, Ruler of the Registry, the head honcho, big kahuna, the main man - anyone gets in my way? I'm squashing them like a bug!
I think something needs to be done too and since there are very large sets, a fixed amount should apply there, and for small sets a percent should apply there.
Perhaps 10% complete or 25 cards - whichever is the lesser...
It is supposed to be a "SET Registry" Maybe cut it down to 15% then. So for a 660 card set your looking at 99 cards. that doesn't seem so bad if your really working on a SET.
I think people just like seeing their name on a bunch of lists even if they have no intention of getting more than 3% complete.
I didn't read everything here carefully but unless I missed it, I didn't see any reference to SGC's "dominance" in early (esp. 19th century) issues. I would say that even GAI has a better presence in that era than PSA. There must be something worthwhile when SGC has the reputation is does in 19th century cards (and extending into early 20th century issues).
Comments
Great insights. Thanks. Good to hear from you.
dgf
<< <i>I firmly believe that at this point, kuntryboy has no way to prove his ridiculous statements as being true.......as I stated earlier, let the backpeddling begin!
pretty soon, he and dabighurt will be fighting for crotch space..... >>
People who "get" my posts know this Kuntrytroll and I are actually quite different!
SIR!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
As for my SGC-graded 1974 set that I'm working on. . . actually, I'm extremely comfortable doing it in SGC holders. I've actually completed three large sets in PSA holders, 1972 (twice) and 1975. And because of PSA's issues (mentioned above), it got to be no fun. Since I've begun the 74 set in a different holder, I've noticed that the retention rate of cards purchased on eBay is dramatically higher. I find that when I submit cards now, the grades I receive are very much in line with what I pick up from dealers and on eBay. Basically, they're succeeding for me in areas where PSA failed for me. Right now, I'm about 20% of the way done on the 74 set and the average grade is 94.27. If you (or anyone else) is coming out for National and would like to look at what I have so far, I'm sure we can make arrangements.
Regards,
Mike
How old are all of you folks, anyway? When do the estate sales on all your registry sets flood the market?
Cynical Realist
Banned from the Beckett boards!
Do you want to know me?
-- Why do all threads like this these days turn into nose-thumbing contests between kuntryboy and someone else?
-- SGC is a fine grading company, and they have their coin side to ensure they aren't going to dry up and blow away, which GAI may well do if they don't get their customer service act together. They are no better or worse than PSA in terms of grading quality or consistency, in my opinion, with scale and market dominance being the main differences.
-- PSA and SGC each have their quirks that you have to learn and live with. They each have had their embarrassing lapses of quality control. If more examples come to mind with PSA, it's because PSA handles more volume and has more of everything than other graders, good and bad.
-- PSA is my grader of choice. I have cast my lot with PSA, and it's too late to turn back now, but I recognize SGC as a quality competitor. And I'm glad there is one, because I don't want to pay $30 for 45-day turnaround to grade a common.
-- SGC holders are a bit classier than PSA's, in my opinion. I always thought so, but I've come to like the PSA slab.
-- I have no problem at buying a card in an SGC holder if it's not for one of my registry sets. I have a couple dozen such cards. In most cases I paid less than the PSA equivalent goes for. That's fine with me. A couple of the pre-wars did better than the PSA versions I was watching at the time. I liked the ones in the SGC holders better. The cards, not the holders.
-- On the other hand, I have bought some SGC 96's and 98's that did not come close to what PSA 10's were fetching. These were much more modern. SGC 100's, though, I could merely watch as they soared into the stratosphere. I assume that's because PSA 10 might represent anything from 95 to 100, even 92 if a grader is having a bad day. With SGC 100, there is theoretically no question where it falls on the 1-100 scale.
-- Dave Forman quite vocally expressed his displeasure with PSA and converted most of his collection to SGC holders. He sold off the rest; I bought a small piece of it. Shortly thereafter, SGC announced he was their new president. All part of the same plan? Probably.
Nice write up - good points. It would be interesting if a true statistical analysis were done on the companies with respect to normalizing the priceguides.
DGF
As usual, incredible depth on graded that would otherwise go over my head.
JR
Also, nice write up also. BTW, doesn't Foreman have a brother who is a dealer?
mike
<< <i>BTW, doesn't Foreman have a brother who is a dealer? >>
Yeah, Steve Foreman. There is the occasional (and inevitable) conspiracy theory. I remember something being floated on the various card forums by Steve Verkman about a year ago, but Sean Skeffington at SGC has forcefully stated that Steve Foreman is treated no differently than anyone else who submits cards to his brother's company.
<< <i>mcastaldi - I'm also working on a 74 SGC set, although my paltry 1% completion probably doesnt qualify me as a threat! >>
Nor would it really qualify as a "set". Not to criticize your "set" but you only have a total of five EX condition 1974 cards out of 660.
SGC registry has 909 sets. This is misleading however because guys like you, Southerncards, have 36 "sets" with only one or two cards in each set.
Do you find this to be a problem only with SGC's registry, or with PSA's registry as well?
I would be curious to see how many sets on PSA's registry are less than 2% complete. I'd be curious to see the same for SGC's registry.
-----------------------------------
southerncards> what's your minimum grade? I saw some 96s that crashtestalex had up about a month ago that I passed on because I either already had examples I was happy with or I didn't care for the centering on his (based on the scans he provided). I do have a Wayne Twitchell in a 92 that became a dupe when I got a 96 on the one I submitted. PM me an address and I'll be glad to send it to you.
Mike
I would like to see that as a criteria for both set registries. I could understand if someone is just starting out, but in order to register a set, you really should be actively trying to complete the set. If a collector has only 5 cards out of a 660 card set, and it has been those same five cards for a year, that set should be deleted after 12 months.
This doesn't bother me nearly so much on SGC's registry because there just aren't enough sets listed for it to be a big deal. If I had to wade through say 10 or more sets with 1 card listed, I'm sure I would feel differently.
Mike
SGC84 Stargell NM
SGC 80 Reggie Jackson Ex/NM
SGC92 Ron Santo NM/MT+
SGC92 All Star LF's (Rose/Murcer) NM/MT+
SGC86 Braves Mgr/coaches NM+
I'm sorry if the 5 cards are too few for you to characterize as a set. The 5 cards average out to a NM+ grade which is several grades higher than the "ex" you believe them to be. My collecting habits may differ from yours and that is why I have only 5 of the 660. I do as you stated have many sets with only 1 or 2 cards as they are cards that have come my way. For example, I'm not purposely looking for 52 Topps but a decent one came my way in a trade and I had it graded. That's the way I collect and the fun I get from my collections. I'm not out there to win a prize for the highest grade or to build a set before anyone else.
mcastaldi - I appreciate your offer. I'm building my sets card by card by trading through a trading website. I could easily go out and buy needed cards but I'm having fun trading for cards that fit my grading criteria. I enjoy submitting raw rather than buying already graded cards. If you'd like to work a trade, I'd be happy to talk further.
Mike
pm sent
Did you get my pm? I'm not sure if it went through.
This is a fascinating post with many varied opinions. I personally am working on a 1960 Topps Psa set registry set, I completed it once but had to sell for personal reasons but am back to assembling it again. I just recentlt bought several SGC 96 cards that i'm hoping i may be able to cross to PSA 9's for my set. It's amazing how much cheaper an SGC96 sells for on e bay as opposed to a Psa 9.without the solid following of a set registry i'm not sure why anyone would have sent commons to SGC for grading. If it was'nt for the registry i would probably collect PSA,SGC & GAI for my sets, i don't believe there is a major difference in the 3 companies, grading is a very subjective issue and just the fact that most of the people here have cracked and resubmitted to Psa with varying grades makes the point very nicely.I like the Sgc holders although they seem to be a bit too large compared and Gai makes a very nice holder as well. With that being said if you're working on a graded set and money being the main issue no doubt Psa is going to bring the top dollar 99.9% of the time although mainly with the commons and minor stars. and in closing everyone have a great 4th of July. Phil
Tabe
GG
heck for 65 topps that would mean almost 100 cards.
many on the reg use it simply as a checklist and average grade chart. many could care less who or where they stand.
steve d
<< <i>GG even for rather large sets? like 72 etc?
heck for 65 topps that would mean almost 100 cards.
many on the reg use it simply as a checklist and average grade chart. many could care less who or where they stand.
steve d >>
Not me Steve,
I want to be KING, Ruler of the Registry, the head honcho, big kahuna, the main man - anyone gets in my way? I'm squashing them like a bug!
Perhaps 10% complete or 25 cards - whichever is the lesser...
Brian
I think people just like seeing their name on a bunch of lists even if they have no intention of getting more than 3% complete.
GG
Where's DBH when we need some insightfulness?
Stingray