I look on ebay daily for a variety of cards everyday, the cards are from different sets and different eras.
While on the lower grades all 3 major companies average the same prices, once it starts to get into mid-high to high grades PSA simply dominates. >>
Call Agreed. I was speaking in real general terms about special areas. When it comes to grading companies I personally have no problems. For the record, 99+% of my cards are PSA.
From a retail POV - PSA is the way to go, in general. Having said that, some people truly enjoy the SGC holder and, of course, have no interest in resale and even, perhaps, investment potential.
Having said this, it was my understanding that for modern cards, speaking about retail - that Beckett 10 will outsell PSA?
<< <i>"some people truly enjoy the SGC holder and, of course, have no interest in resale and even, perhaps, investment potential."
If they truly didnt care about resale value then whats the point of grading modern cards?
A really nice screwdown would do the job, you can even make your own black insert. >>
I think you're kind of twisting everything I said around.
First, when I was talking about SGC - these are vintage collectors and not modern. I'm not up on the numbers, but there is a "vintage niche" in the SGC world. I can get the numbers if you really want it. Wasn't Aconte alluding to that a while ago?
<< <i>Modern is crap. Very Very few people actually collect modern, its all speculation and investing >>
This kind of reminds of the saying by Yogi: "nobody goes there anymore, it's always too crowded" First, modern is not crap and secondly there's a whole world of graded modern collectors out there and it's not my place to "judge" their rationale for putting their money into it. Collecting, investing, speculating - a lot of people get excited about doing it this way. It's not my cup of tea since, for me, a hobby is for fun and talk of investment sounds too much like work.
Your welcome Paul On the graded scene, I agree with you - the midgraded cards - if you take your time can be purchased for a more affordable price - AND you can get some nice 6 and 7s along the way that have great eye appeal!
In Southerncards' argument, he has conveniently left out the part where I said "and the market has spoken loud and clear". All one has to do is go to The World's Largest Marketplace to see the FACTS. There's no possible way to deny the lack of demand for the SGC product in comparison to that of the PSA product.
Ever try to sell SGC cards? With the exception of very obscure and/or really high demand cards, anybody who has tried to sell SGC cards knows that the vast majority of the time it is extremely tough to get anything even remotely close to fair market value UNLESS
a) the seller spends an additional $21.50 or so per auction for the bells & whistles -- featured listing, bold, subtitle
b) the seller violates ebay's keyword spamming policy and includes PSA in the title
I could go on and on, but I feel that I've made my point.
I meant Modern cards collectors who prefer SGC ( i consider modern anything in the 70's)
The Niche of SGC is limited to rare pre war cards, in major sets like T-206 and goudeys PSA brings either the same prices or better.
The ultra modern market (jeters arods that sort of stuff...its just wrong, its not collecting at all...its like the stock market with a sports twist)
One more thing if you are going to get into controversial topics , you have to stop being so damn nice LOL...you are way too mellow!
All that soft spoken, calm and polite talk its just going to make us realize that we all share the same hobby and should become more focused on the cards themselves rather the plastic.
whats next? we just get along and discuss cards? Stop it now!
"Women should be obscene and not heard. " Groucho Marx
<< <i>whats next? we just get along and discuss cards? Stop it now! >>
Speaking of collecting cards, I don't care what it says on their flips, cards like these should not be considered chopped liver, just because they're been graded only a 7 :
It strikes me that you are grasping at straws in this thread. One can liken the grading companies to cars. in the 1970's, who drove a Toyota? What was popular opinion of the car? How well were they made? Contrast that with Toyota today. Are they better? Is opinion better? Value?
Obviously, public opinions have changed, fueled by performance and shaped by marketing and advertising.
Same goes for the graded cards. Seems to me your focus REALLY should be elsewhere in this thread. I would think you would look for the loopholes in marketing your card, and I dont mean the niches each hold in the hobby (SGC pre-war, PSA vintage, BGS modern)
If you have a rough cut card, which grading company is easiest on the edges? Corners? Printing dots? Off Centering, be it t-b, l-r or back? Fading or weak coloring? And, for your protection, trim/alterations?
Seems to me that knowing this would allow you to exploit the grading loopholes, and 'overgrade' a card. Because you and I both know that if this companies 6 is widely seen as that companies 7, but that company would grade it a 6, and this, a 5, we're going with that company.
Just like cars, this company and that company offer a car for the same price, but down the road, is one worth more?
And, we all know there are companies hoofing it on reputation alone, and actual value isnt what the sticker says....
Those are the loopholes you should argue about, because, regardless of whether you intend to sell or not, you want the most value for your dollar. Unless the 'set registry' thing is actually more important than the set itself, which I suspect is the case in all too many cases.
Daeyel
Cynical Realist
Banned from the Beckett boards! Do you want to know me?
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. <begin sarcasm>As you can see, the man has his facts straight. The marketplace has spoken, and clearly PSA cards command a premium over SGC cards<end sarcasm>. By the way, to be fair, I found a 1955 Topps PSA 7 Hodges that sold for $40 more than an SGC equivalent and a Banks card from the same year (PSA 6 vs SGC 6 I think) where the PSA version sold for a few bucks more.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised by the above. This topic has been very enlightening for me in regards to the marketplace's view on SGC graded cards. And while it certainly had a tone of frustration, probably rightfully so with the kuntryboys and DaBigHurts of the world, I really enjoyed DGF's original dissertation. I can tell you it's made me reconsider some things. . .
<< <i><< DGF STONE: I have no axe to grind with you or anyone - I think it's unfair and an overstatement to spread this kind of generality. I enjoy your posts and am disappointed in this kind of rhetoric. It just feels like your attack of Paul is a bit over the top. >> CTSOX: I agree - sounds like a cheap shot (taken at a lot of people) to me. >>
CT & Stone, Two guys I like. Not intended for all--but quite a few. It was actually ME who was given the cheap shot. The shot I took was wide open for all to see. Certainly nothing cheap about it. I'm sorry you don't like it. That's the way it goes, I guess. Sour grapes? Perhaps. But my experience with LTS secures many doubts about the hobby for me. The issue I had was handled so poorly it's absurd. As for my "attack" on Paul. Read again, son. It was me responding to Paul's attack. You see, if people would simply read and respond to posts in an intelligent manner--and stick to topic, this "rhetoric" (the word du jour, by the way) would cease. Your issue is with Paul, not me.
Calleocho, I have come around to your way of thinking quite a bit. I vehemently disagreed with some of your assertions--although I listened to you--and have begun to see the light. The PSA 10 is an imaginary grade these days for me as well. It occurred to me when I started sleeving my cards raw and assigned grades (for set-building purposes) of MINT, NM, and EX. Those are the only parameters I set for my cards. I don't own any cards below EX. If I did I would designate GOOD and FILLER. My scale put MINT as anything MINT or exceptional to mint. NM would encompass PSA's standard for NM and NM/MT while EX would translate into EX-MT and EX. You're opinion has been proven to the point of fact, I believe. This should show anyone with a brain (most people know I really can't stand you) that I, unlike many, actually listen to the arguments presented and allow for them to develop. It tends to broaden one's scope. Like Yogi Berra said "you can learn a lot by listening." I invite the rest of you to try it. If you already do, you know the benefits I'm speaking of...downright liberating!!! Thanks Calle. This doesn't mean I actually want to hug you or anything, I just appreciated your feedback.
Bobby, There is no "rhetoric" here. That seems to be everyone's word du jour. What I stated was enlightened opinion based on empirical fact as relates to my collecting interest. If you choose to view me as holy, you should reconsider. There was nothing in my post (aside from my LTS comments) that should be viewed as confrontational.
Wolfie, Despite the fact you have issues with my happiness and don't like me, you seem to have a fantastic collection. I also appreciate the freedom with which you collect. You're apologetic tone and zeal for PSA aside, you seem like a fun guy at the very least and knowledgeable about your football. I enjoyed the pics.
FWIW DGF your scale is similar to the one I have always used. I would though have a VG grade for those fillers that were better then poor or fair IMO
that standard was the standard that we collectors used among ourselves before the surge of (mostly coin dealersand investors) that invaded our hobby in the mid 80's bringing the loupes and dollars with them.
it was a more serene time when 2 people could actually agree on a cards grade, and value. I miss those times.
DGF your a very good guy as is Paul too. Both bring much to the table.
DGF Perhaps my choice of words was poor - "attack" - too strong - should be more in line with your return volley - knowing how Wolfie likes to jab - I thought he was in keeping with the style of your writing - which BTW, is flawless and extremely logical - I was trying to say - he jabbed at you - and I felt you went for the jugular - especially comments - whose direction was all encompassing - about LTS - for which I personally felt pain over "your" situation - but the letter of the law prevailed.
I, for one, always enjoy your posts and truly thought Wolfie was just messin with you - heck, he's done it to me! Keep in mind, there is some "tone" or personal "connotative pain" in your words IMO. But, the way the market is going, in certain avenues, I can truly understand how you feel.
And since we all have put out a lot of info - I will go back to something I said in gest but who knows? That, "perhaps down the road everyone will be cracking their holders and putting the cards in binders - it will cut down on collective weight of some collections!" LOL
<< <i>whats next? we just get along and discuss cards? Stop it now! >>
Speaking of collecting cards, I don't care what it says on their flips, cards like these should not be considered chopped liver, just because they're been graded only a 7 :
>>
I agree! Those cards are beauties and I would be proud to have them! They may not be chopped liver but I'll take mine with corned beef on rye!
kuntryboy> Here's the problem. You made three statements and expect that "proof" of one of them would necessarily prove the others to be true as well. And that's total nonsense. Let's look at your three assertions for a moment -
1 - "SGC cards have always sold for weak prices." I guess it depends on how you define "weak prices". One could argue that they sell for less than a same-grade example in PSA holders. I could also argue that many cards in PSA holders are generally overpriced for what the card really is - making the price realized on an SGC or GAI example closer to the real actual value. If you actually look at the "world's greatest marketplace", you'll currently find any gap to be very small. This is especially true of 70s and 80s material - where the prices for both SGC and PSA examples is severely depressed. For the last year or so, SGC96s have generally realized prices very comparable to PSA9s. The primary exception being registry participants chasing the lower-pop PSA-graded stuff with an "I gotta have it now" attitude. Again, my experience with this is primarily in 70s material. PSA examples sell for what they sell for and SGC examples sell for what they sell for.
2 - "The weak prices are due to consumers lack of confidence in the quality of the SGC product." This is absolutely ridiculous. Even if you assume that SGC cards sell for "weak prices", the most basic macroeconomics class will tell you that there are lots of factors which influence consumer confidence and price is only one factor. And the level of consumer confidence in a given product cannot be determined on price alone. So what are some other factors, besides price, which indicate a lack of consumer confidence in SGC's product offering?
3 - "It [SGC] is clearly an inferior product. . ." Based on what criteria, exactly? And inferior to what, exactly? Do you constantly have to babysit your orders with SGC so you can point out which grades you immediately know they got wrong? Do they manage to knick the lower-left corner on about 3-5% of your cards over the course of a year? Do you regularly buy SGC96s on eBay only to find they are worse than your self-submitted SGC88s? Does SGC ever fail to take or return your phone calls? Do you find that SGC gives the larger submitters better deals and better grades from SGC than the little guys? Has SGC completely blown you off when attempting to voice your concerns in a reasoned and well thought-out way? I've seen and experienced all of these things. . .just not with SGC. So what, exactly, makes you think SGC is an inferior product?
I look forward to reading your difinitive proof at how bad SGC is. I'm sure it will make me feel extremely foolish for building a large (660-card) graded set with them.
detroitfan - kudos to you for your research. Your numbers bear out the real truth about SGC material and the "worlds biggest marketplace". Somehow, I still think that kuntryboy will fail to see the light.
mcastaldi - your comments were absolutely right on the mark. I couldnt have said it better myself. Thanks to both of you for the back up.
and to everyone else - collect what you want and enjoy your collection, but dont keep complaining that your cards were misgraded, damaged, delayed in shipping, encased in a condom, mislabeled etc. You have the choice not to keep giving any particular company your business. If they screw you, move on the someone else.
i will say this, i have a few non sport sets I want graded and sgc will be gettiing them only cuz I feel they do a credible job (psa too would) I just like how they will present in that SGC holder.
The hobby is big enough for 2 or 3 mainstream grading companies.
i will say this, i have a few non sport sets I want graded and sgc will be gettiing them only cuz I feel they do a credible job (psa too would) I just like how they will present in that SGC holder.
The hobby is big enough for 2 or 3 mainstream grading companies.
the hobby is better with 2 or 3 such companies.
steve d >>
Good points Steve Competition is good. Each company will continue to "market" to their respective target group and even try to branch out a bit. That all looks good to me.
As many have said, they like the dark background of the SGC holder for some issues - why PSA doesn't adapt has more to do with cost, most likely, than responding to customer needs.
Considering the fact that the "holder" is key to their product - some of their money should be spent of R&D - and I'm referring to all the companies.
Mike doesn't know what he's talking about. He wouldn't know a mint card from a large mouth bass. He gets all of his posting info from a gal named Julianne whom he met through a 1-900 psychic number. Back when he was running his massage parlor on Halsted Street in Chicago, a few card collectors came in now and then and he picked up some transient knowledge. I met Mike in prison back in '82 and he knew notta about cards. He did spend a few semesters at a fashion school where he learned some things about proper wedding attire and ceremonial head dressings. Mike, why not show us that new fashion line you've been working on with the "suburban Sombrero" for weddings?
<< <i>Mike doesn't know what he's talking about. He wouldn't know a mint card from a large mouth bass. He gets all of his posting info from a gal named Julianne whom he met through a 1-900 psychic number. Back when he was running his massage parlor on Halsted Street in Chicago, a few card collectors came in now and then and he picked up some transient knowledge. I met Mike in prison back in '82 and he knew notta about cards. He did spend a few semesters at a fashion school where he learned some things about proper wedding attire and ceremonial head dressings. Mike, why not show us that new fashion line you've been working on with the "suburban Sombrero" for weddings?
All those examples that you picked were below "7". A couple of 1955 in grades SGC/PSA 5?
A PSA 7 1960 mantle sold for $525 a sgc 7 sold for $350
In the lower grades prices are similar, sometimes even raw cards do quite well.
To me Grading is all about enhancing the value of your card, PSA does this quite well. In some cases Grading adds very little to a card regardless of the grader or the grade. For example 70's cards where many of them sell for less than the grading cost.
Downgoesfrazier,
I Cant believe you are going to be semi-nice to me, you are about the only foe i have around here. We should keep at least a small amount of hostility, just to make things more interesting.
"Women should be obscene and not heard. " Groucho Marx
<< <i> Cant believe you are going to be semi-nice to me, you are about the only foe i have around here. We should keep at least a small amount of hostility, just to make things more interesting. >>
Good one Rick!
He kind of told me to "mean up" a bit to keep the threads more interesting - I'll keep that in mind myself.
DGF> Have you seen the glass platform shoes with the goldfish inside?
Stone193> "As many have said, they like the dark background of the SGC holder for some issues - why PSA doesn't adapt has more to do with cost, most likely, than responding to customer needs."
Well. . .consider this. . .one of the things that came out of the WIWAG litigation was that PSA admitted that WIWAG had rather successfully compromised the PSA holder. This is as opposed to WIWAG slabbing their own cards with unused plastic. As we sit here today, PSA's holder has remained unchanged for the last several years. So. . .PSA admitted their holder has been compromised - and has done nothing about the holder. If an admitted security problem has not brought PSA to implement changes in their holder, I can't imagine they'd be swayed by a black insert to improve a card's presentation.
calleocho> "To me Grading is all about enhancing the value of your card, PSA does this quite well."
I would agree, PSA does often add value - when they get it right. The problem is the percentage of overgraded stuff out there combined with the fact that a large number of collectors really don't much care if it's accurately graded. Many registry participants would buy a steaming pile encased in plastic if it had the right number on it. But at the end of the day, it's still just a steaming pile encased in plastic. For the stuff I collect, SGC gets it right the most often. If a collector feels that PSA gets it right the most often, then that's what they should buy. But too many collectors, regardless of which holder they buy their cards in, allow themselves to believe that the number that's on the holder must be what the card is - even if their own judgement tells them different. Assuming they choose to use their own judgement.
I just love those '63T FB cards!! I'm going to have find where I've got a handful stored and see how they'd compare.
To paraphrase a name, "Cards I Just !!".
I got the cards below in a lot of 5 PSA5s, each costing $4.63 postage included. They both have corners that could scratch glass they're so sharp. A good example of BTCNTC, but they would look even sharper with a complimentary complementary background.
(Fyi, Charley has the most minor example of a ding on the reverse I've ever seen and Whitey has a short printer's crease on the front upper right corner which can only be seen with the light at just the right angle.)
I'm happy with PSA grading, but will have to investigate SGC-graded cards a little more thoroughly, I guess, to form an opinion. I'm new at graded-card buying so I appreciate all the information in this and other threads...
Lets say a collector lives in an area where high grade material is hard to find.
Where is the collector going to find enough SGC graded cards to complete a set?
There just isnt enough inventory out there to complete massive 70's sets in SGC.
It is easy to find SGC graded stars, but you are going to have a hard time finding 600+ commons in high grade.
SGC has been might be a good company especially for collectors, but we deal with a market that depends on both buyers and sellers.
SGC opened doors in 1998 and since then it has kept the same low profile, following whatever PSA does and being content with whatever market share they have.
I mean they pride themselves in having a pre war niche, talk about a finite amount of cards to grade.
GAI has taken a much larger slice of the pie and they are the new kids on the block. They intoduced pack grading to the hobby, i am no fan of GAI but at least they try some PR stunts and try to gain exposure.
"Women should be obscene and not heard. " Groucho Marx
Hate to mention the obvious but for two mainstream cards of the same grade, the centering and quality of the auction presentation will determine which card sells for more money. Not the company on the flip in most cases. This really only applies to PSA and SGC, as I do think GAI does lag a little in price.
Duuude said, "...every don mossi card would be graded a "1" regardless of condition..." Too much! I can't stop laughing thinking about Mossi cards after that!
(calle: What?! No RRay picture?! What gives??)
Good points raised though about supply of graded commons. I'm a set collector, so that is a very big consideration for me. I'm finding my raw cards aren't worthy so I will need to upgrade by buying from others. I've got my eye on some big lots coming up that contain cards I need yet.
Sorry to hijack this and create another Pulp Plot...
calleocho> "Lets say a collector lives in an area where high grade material is hard to find."
I live in Chicagoland, where there are at least three major shows each year. And I can tell you that even with that, finding examples that I find worth purchasing is still not easy. It takes a lot of work and diligence. But I'll also say that when I built PSA sets (72T twice & 75T), a significant portion of my sets were self-submitted. So while it is harder to do a set in SGC, it's not really that much harder if you're willing to do the work. In addition to shows, you can network with dealers and other collectors to find cards as well.
If you intend to build a high-grade SGC set and want to cross over PSA stuff, I will say that PSA doesn't make it easy. They've become so inconsistent that buying stuff on eBay that you think will cross, much less bump, is usually a crap-shoot.
I will say that I know Phil well enough to know that he could have built his set in SGC holders, almost as easily as in PSA holders and without major shows. Such a significant portion of his set was self-submitted with cards he obtained either from unopened product or purchases of raw from trusted dealers. In fact, toward the end of his set I know he was extremely frustrated because he was rejecting about 80% of his eBay purchases of PSA-slabbed stuff.
It can be done, if you're patient and persistent. Not to say it is easy. . .just that it can be done.
Also. . ."Where is the collector going to find enough SGC graded cards to complete a set?" Well, I will say that I find building a 70s set in SGC holders to be easier than doing it in PSA holders in the sense that I generally only have to buy an example once if it's in an SGC holder. With PSA-holdered stuff, I'd often have to wade through many inferior or unacceptable examples before finding one I would accept. With PSA-graded stuff, sure there's more of it out there. But who has the time or money to dig through the haystack to find the needle?
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. <begin sarcasm>As you can see, the man has his facts straight. The marketplace has spoken, and clearly PSA cards command a premium over SGC cards<end sarcasm>. By the way, to be fair, I found a 1955 Topps PSA 7 Hodges that sold for $40 more than an SGC equivalent and a Banks card from the same year (PSA 6 vs SGC 6 I think) where the PSA version sold for a few bucks more.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised by the above. This topic has been very enlightening for me in regards to the marketplace's view on SGC graded cards. And while it certainly had a tone of frustration, probably rightfully so with the kuntryboys and DaBigHurts of the world, I really enjoyed DGF's original dissertation. I can tell you it's made me reconsider some things. . . >>
detroitfan2
Apparently my post went right over your head, but thank you for going out of your way to prove the accuracy of my comments. Let's take a look at the 3 examples that you came up with in an attempt to prove me wrong.
1955 Topps Sandy Koufax Rookie -- invalid example -- high demand card 1953 Topps Jackie Robinson -- invalid example -- high demand card 1955 Topps Harmon Killebrew Rookie -- invalid example -- high demand card
Did I not exclude high demand cards? In my opinion, those are all high demand cards. But even if one would not define those cards as being high demand cards, keep in mind that I did say "the vast majority". Your research shows that "the vast majority" is 100% accurate. Let's face it. You spent your entire morning searching ebay and all you could come up with was 3 examples. 3 examples that most people would view as invalid due to my exclusion of high demand cards.
Thank you again, detroitfan2, for proving the accuracy of my comments. In the future, I would suggest that you have a firmer grasp of any "challenge" that you plan to take on. It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment.
I exclusively use SGC for my personal collection. I find their holders to be very nice and professional, customer service outstanding, and very accurately graded. Kuntry person, I think you're missing the point here. Just because PSA was the first and most recognized, doesn't mean it will always be that way. SGC is increasingly eating away at vintage market share, and is the premier choice for us Pre-War collectors. The good folks at Network 54, most of whom have legendary collections and 30+years of experience almost universally choose SGC. There is a reason James Spence is now with SGC. The announcement of their new autograph service should not go unnoticed in PSA-land. PSA prices are due to recognition and market share, not necessarily trust. PSA consisently sells for more, but their service is becoming more stagnant. People are switching to SGC more frequently. As I envision it in the near future SGC will absolutely dominate the Pre-1948 market, PSA the 1948-1980 market (with GAI a distant second), and BGS 1980-present. PSA can't always be the "all things to all collectors" and more will start using and embracing the niche' that SGC creates.
kuntryboy> "In the future, I would suggest that you have a firmer grasp of any "challenge" that you plan to take on. It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment."
I'm still looking forward to hearing your definitive proof on how bad SGC is. In the future, I would suggest that you do not ignore any "challenge" to your unsubstantiated claims. It will save you a lot of unneccesary embarrassment. And who knows, you might actually even learn something.
But you know. . .on second thought, if saving embarrassment is important to you, it's probably better that you continute to avoid addressing the points I made with something resembling facts.
It's a better company because Ebay says so! And if it's good enough for ebay, that's ALL the proof he'll need. A grading service is only as good as how much a card will sell for! Yeah, that's it....the flavor of the PSA-aid is tasting mighty good......
<< <i>I look forward to reading your difinitive proof at how bad SGC is. I'm sure it will make me feel extremely foolish for building a large (660-card) graded set with them. >>
<< <i>As I said in my previous post, I look forward to hearing your definitive proof on how bad SGC is. In the future, I would suggest that you do not ignore any "challenge" to your unsubstantiated claims. It will save you a lot of unneccesary embarrassment. And who knows, you might actually even learn something. >>
mcastaldi
I do not recall making any such statement in regards to SGC being so bad. Perhaps in the future you should figure out what claims are being made, and what claims are not being made, before you propose a "challenge". It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment.
Anyway, when comparing two similar products, we basically have three choices -- inferior, equal, superior. The World's Largest Marketplace clearly shows that the market has spoken loud and clear in that the quality of the SGC product is not equal to or superior to that of PSA. The market has spoken with their wallets. I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer. Some people just don't seem to get it.
Sure, some clown can probably find a few random auction results that show that an SGC card sold for equal to (or more than) it's PSA counterpart, but what it really comes down to is the demand. Why can you find 35 times as many PSA cards on ebay at any given time? The PSA Set Registry? Like I said, that's a fallacy. The GAI guys can use that pathetic excuse, but SGC was around long before the PSA Set Registry even existed. PSA's dominance on ebay was the same prior to the existance of the Registry. Ditto with the weak SGC prices.
As for your 660 card SGC graded set, it sounds like you are not comfortable with your decision. What is foolish to one person may not be foolish to another. To each his own. I am not judging you or your decisions. I am curious as to why you are taking my comments so personally.
Having fond childhood memories of the sets that you (and DGF) choose to have encapsulated, I can understand where you are coming from. But, make no mistake, you are playing a game that you can only lose -- regardless of which grading company you choose. The graded 70s/80s era is a financially dangerous segment of the hobby. For the purpose of this discussion, let's appropriately refer to it as "the 4SC era". The major problems that are associated with (but not specific to) the 4SC era are:
1) Gradeflation 2) Politics 3) Holder value
I won't elaborate on the first two problems mentioned above as those may be viewed as too controversial.
With the exception of a few key rookies and some major star cards, when dealing with cards from the 4SC era, you pretty much lose 99% of the card's perceived value at the MINT 9 level if you remove the card from the holder. Even more when dealing with 10's. That alone makes it a fool's game -- without even taking into account the other problems associated with that era. Fool's game or not, some still choose to play. Those who do need to realize that, when 99% of the card's perceived value is derived from the holder, the value of their collection is dependent upon the future of the grading company used.
What is the future of SGC? Where will SGC be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
Who is the President of SGC? What do you know about him? Does he have a good reputation in the hobby? My understanding is that he was a card dealer prior to becoming the President of SGC. Does he directly or indirectly still sell cards? If so, in what holders?
Outside of the few positive experiences you've had with SGC's customer service, what do you really know about SGC?
How does SGC even keep its doors open? Have you ever wondered that?
Why is it that SGC's poster boys have been selling PSA cards in 99% of their ebay auctions during the past year or so?
Maybe you can do some research and then answer my questions. And who knows, you might actually even learn something.
<< <i>But you know. . .on second thought, if saving embarrassment is important to you, it's probably better that you continute to avoid addressing the points I made with something resembling facts. >>
<< <i>I do not recall making any such statement in regards to SGC being so bad. Perhaps in the future you should figure out what claims are being made, and what claims are not being made, before you propose a "challenge". It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment. >>
Let's go to the video tape, shall we? Earlier, on this VERY program...
kuntryboy:
<< <i>SGC cards have always sold for weak prices. The existence of the PSA set registry didn't change that. The weak prices are due to consumers lack of confidence in the quality of the SGC product. It is clearly an inferior product >>
Okay. Now that issue is put to rest. You are officially full of crape. Now back to the topic...
At the risk of being "holy" again, my post was in response to the thread title and gave an insight, a small but accurate one, to the question at hand. While I digressed some (bad habit--I know, I'm working on it), the facts are what they are. I still love Aerosmith. I can, however, put my childhood warm and fuzzies aside long enough to say they sold out and are not what they once were. I just like MINT cards. Any year, any holder, any time. MINT, MINT, MINT! It doesn't have to be a low-pop or HOF'er. A 1988 topps Gene Nelson can ink my pen just as a sharp '66 Yaz. I love it all. The fact with me is, while I collect CARDS rather than holders, I find a higher percentage of high-end beauties in SGC holders than PSA. It's just that simple. I have a really good idea of the quality I'm getting when I buy an SGC 96 UNSEEN. With PSA I need a huge scan and a personal relationship with the seller to trust the quality. This is not a bias, but rather a conditioned response to PSA overgrading cards. I'm okay with the fact that my 1977 or 1978 set will never break the bank. My issue is with PSA's inability to stabilize the target long enough for those cards to be appreciated. They just started handing out 9's & 10's to keep the subs coming and the cards got prematurely devalued. That conscious decision on their part just ruined it for me. For the guy who submits infrequently, is not too discerning, not educated in the nuances-nor cares to be, or purchases primarily off of eBay or mail order, the difference will be hard to notice. When you submit the same issue and condition over a period of years, the difference is obvious. Painfully so. This is typically where a couple of insecure collectors chime in and say I insulted them by generalizing. Guys, one MUST generalize here. This is about nobody in particular and I recognize we all have different means and skills and desires. I'm only referring to PSA's grading here--not anybody's methods of collecting.
I firmly believe that at this point, kuntryboy has no way to prove his ridiculous statements as being true.......as I stated earlier, let the backpeddling begin!
pretty soon, he and dabighurt will be fighting for crotch space.....
<< I do not recall making any such statement in regards to SGC being so bad. Perhaps in the future you should figure out what claims are being made, and what claims are not being made, before you propose a "challenge". It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment. >>
Let's go to the video tape, shall we? Earlier, on this VERY program...
kuntryboy:
<< SGC cards have always sold for weak prices. The existence of the PSA set registry didn't change that. The weak prices are due to consumers lack of confidence in the quality of the SGC product. It is clearly an inferior product >>
Okay. Now that issue is put to rest. You are officially full of crape. Now back to the topic... >>
DGF
Ignorant post.
Nowhere in this thread have I said that "SGC is so bad". Inferior product as determined by the consumers, yes. And all of the proof is here. There's a reason why PSA cards outnumber SGC cards on ebay by a 35:1 ratio. The market has spoken loud and clear as to which service offers a superior product. If the consumers felt that SGC was the superior product, dealers would take note and you'd see more SGC cards on ebay. Nothing more needs to be said about that.
What I find very entertaining is that you actually believe that you are an "astute collector". In the year 2005, "astute collector" is an oxymoron. Take a good hard look at the beginning of SDavid's post on the first page of this thread for a reality check. He hit the nail on the head, and would you like to guess which New Jersey city the rejects are sent to? That's after an unsuccessful trip to Irvine.
I haven't posted here in a long time, so forgive me for jumping in the middle of a thread - but I've been lurking and have been wrestling with responding to this thread for two days now. It's 1:59AM, and now I'm compelled to add to the discussion a bit.
The idea that cards in one slab sell for more than cards in the other's slab simply because of the slab is preposterous.
The fact is, any of us can go and find examples of one slab selling for higher than another. All you need is a card that sold in each company's holder - one fetched a higher price than the other. You could do 20 Ebay searches right now and find 10 that went one way and 10 that went the other. Unfortunately, there are a million variables that impact what a card sells for at any given time.
For example, I am under the impression that the most money ever paid (on record) for a set of baseball cards, was for a 1914 Cracker Jack set, in SGC slabs. Conversely, I'm under the impression (which could, of course, be wrong) that the most money ever paid (on record) for a single card was for a PSA-8 Wagner.
Was it the slab, or the cards, that drove the prices so high?
SGC cards sell for insane prices at auction all the time. So do PSA cards. There is a larger population of PSA cards on Ebay, and in the secondary market in general, for three reasons: 1) PSA has an eight-year head start on SGC in terms of being in business, 2) PSA invented the set registry, which created a demand for a large volume of commons, and 3) A large portion of SGC cards are graded and then become part of private collections, where they stay.
The bottom line is, if a person needs a particular card, do they hold off on buying it if it's in the wrong slab? Or in a slab in general? Personally, I don't think so. I've cracked PSA cards for my SGC sets, and I've cracked SGC cards for my PSA sets. I've bought raw cards and submitted them to both companies, and I've cracked cards out of both companies' slabs and kept 'em raw. Hell, once in a while, I'll even buy a card in a Global holder.
Lots of factors happen every day of the week that impact a company's "values":
-Two people competing for a particular set. Seems like every day there's a card bid up to a ridiculous price on Ebay, and when you check the bid history, it's just two guys bidding against each other. In this case, it doesn't matter WHO slabbed the card - both guys need the card!
-Grading company A does a monthly grading special on a particular era of card. Two months later, those cards flood the secondary market, as people who have been hoarding them, waiting for the grading special, receive back their submissions. Suddenly it seems like there are a million cards from that era, all in the same slabs, for sale everywhere. This depresses the prices on, umm, the world's biggest marketplace, or whatever you call it.
-A handful of major auctions, all within a few months of one another. This just happened in the spring, with four or five major auctions all back-to-back. My opinion is that this pulled a lot of the "money" collectors off Ebay for a while, and created some great bargains. At least it felt like it did, as I was buying cards significantly under their normal value on Ebay all spring.
-Where the other cards are. For example, if there are four PSA-8 examples of a certain card in existence, and three of them are already in registry sets, when that fourth one hits Ebay, the price is going to be ridiculous. The population of that card may be 4, but in reality, its only 1, because the other three will never be sold. This happens a lot, particularly among registry collectors.
-Umm, the card itself is nice. Believe it or not, some people actually collect cards.
PSA has a very active registry right now. It's fun to be a part of. But it is NOT the slab that drives up the price of a PSA card. It's the GPA, the registry competition, the card itself, the demand, or any number of other factors. The only time I've ever seen the SLAB be the reason for a card's price, is when it has GEM or PRO or some other such garbage on it, in which case, the card sells for a low price.
Customer loyalty is a great thing. Companies go to great lengths to create loyal customers, and when they're successful at it, it's a thing of beauty. I'm sure PSA is pleased at the perception that their cards sell for more money. However, the fact is that the delta between the two companies' selling prices has gotten very slim, for the most part - if there's even a delta anymore. There are, of course, some issues that routinely sell better in PSA slabs, and others that sell better in SGC, but that's a function of the cards and the collectors, not the slab.
And before any dealers jump on me, telling me "You're wrong, I sell 'Company X' slabs for tons of money": crack 50% of your 'Company X' slabs and have 'Company Y' reholder them. They'll sell just fine.
Anyone want to post an over/under on how many different bits of anchor text Kuntry Boy is going to use in this thread to link to Ebay?
Dude, give it a rest. You said- and we all saw it- that SGC is clearly an inferior product. Now that's fine-- you're entitled to your opinion. Just recognize that a lot of very knowledgable collectors disagree with you.
Comments
<< <i>Stone ,
I look on ebay daily for a variety of cards everyday, the cards are from different sets and different eras.
While on the lower grades all 3 major companies average the same prices, once it starts to get into mid-high to high grades PSA simply dominates. >>
Call
Agreed. I was speaking in real general terms about special areas. When it comes to grading companies I personally have no problems. For the record, 99+% of my cards are PSA.
From a retail POV - PSA is the way to go, in general. Having said that, some people truly enjoy the SGC holder and, of course, have no interest in resale and even, perhaps, investment potential.
Having said this, it was my understanding that for modern cards, speaking about retail - that Beckett 10 will outsell PSA?
That's what I was getting at?
mike
Modern is crap. Very Very few people actually collect modern, its all speculation and investing.
keep in mind that most of the issue here is inconsistency at PSA 10/sgc 98 levels...its just plain nuts.
70's cards are plentiful and it gets even worse after that, besides a few expensive cards there are no counterfits or altered cards in the market.
Both grading companies have proven that their best job its done when they authenticate a card, their grading its really a crap shot.
Groucho Marx
If they truly didnt care about resale value then whats the point of grading modern cards?
A really nice screwdown would do the job, you can even make your own black insert.
Groucho Marx
Hey stone ! Thanks for sticking up for me. It's appreciated.
My wants are simple. All I want is the best example, in my eyes, of every card of every set I collect.
Sometimes my PSA registy set will contain a PSA 9,
but my real keeper will be a PSA 8 or even a PSA 7.
No knock on PSA. Grading on eye-appeal alone would result in total chaos.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>"some people truly enjoy the SGC holder and, of course, have no interest in resale and even, perhaps, investment potential."
If they truly didnt care about resale value then whats the point of grading modern cards?
A really nice screwdown would do the job, you can even make your own black insert. >>
I think you're kind of twisting everything I said around.
First, when I was talking about SGC - these are vintage collectors and not modern. I'm not up on the numbers, but there is a "vintage niche" in the SGC world. I can get the numbers if you really want it.
Wasn't Aconte alluding to that a while ago?
<< <i>Modern is crap. Very Very few people actually collect modern, its all speculation and investing >>
This kind of reminds of the saying by Yogi: "nobody goes there anymore, it's always too crowded"
First, modern is not crap and secondly there's a whole world of graded modern collectors out there and it's not my place to "judge" their rationale for putting their money into it. Collecting, investing, speculating - a lot of people get excited about doing it this way. It's not my cup of tea since, for me, a hobby is for fun and talk of investment sounds too much like work.
mike
Your welcome Paul
On the graded scene, I agree with you - the midgraded cards - if you take your time can be purchased for a more affordable price - AND you can get some nice 6 and 7s along the way that have great eye appeal!
Also, these cards can be picked up below SMR.
mike
Just plain awesome 7's stone.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
psa* -sgc* -gai* = 21,223 (ebay search)
psa* -sgc* -gai* = 47,799 (ebay stores search)
TOTAL PSA = 69,022
sgc* -psa* -gai* = 829 (ebay search)
sgc* -psa* -gai* = 1,302 (ebay stores search)
TOTAL SGC = 2,131
Ever try to sell SGC cards? With the exception of very obscure and/or really high demand cards, anybody who has tried to sell SGC cards knows that the vast majority of the time it is extremely tough to get anything even remotely close to fair market value UNLESS
a) the seller spends an additional $21.50 or so per auction for the bells & whistles -- featured listing, bold, subtitle
b) the seller violates ebay's keyword spamming policy and includes PSA in the title
I could go on and on, but I feel that I've made my point.
I meant Modern cards collectors who prefer SGC ( i consider modern anything in the 70's)
The Niche of SGC is limited to rare pre war cards, in major sets like T-206 and goudeys PSA brings either the same prices or better.
The ultra modern market (jeters arods that sort of stuff...its just wrong, its not collecting at all...its like the stock market with a sports twist)
One more thing if you are going to get into controversial topics , you have to stop being so damn nice LOL...you are way too mellow!
All that soft spoken, calm and polite talk its just going to make us realize that we all share the same hobby and should become more focused on the cards themselves rather the plastic.
whats next? we just get along and discuss cards? Stop it now!
Groucho Marx
<< <i>whats next? we just get along and discuss cards? Stop it now! >>
Speaking of collecting cards,
I don't care what it says on their flips,
cards like these should not be considered chopped liver, just because they're been graded only a 7 :
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
One can liken the grading companies to cars. in the 1970's, who drove a Toyota? What was popular opinion of the car? How well were they made?
Contrast that with Toyota today. Are they better? Is opinion better? Value?
Obviously, public opinions have changed, fueled by performance and shaped by marketing and advertising.
Same goes for the graded cards.
Seems to me your focus REALLY should be elsewhere in this thread. I would think you would look for the loopholes in marketing your card, and I dont mean the niches each hold in the hobby (SGC pre-war, PSA vintage, BGS modern)
If you have a rough cut card, which grading company is easiest on the edges? Corners? Printing dots? Off Centering, be it t-b, l-r or back? Fading or weak coloring? And, for your protection, trim/alterations?
Seems to me that knowing this would allow you to exploit the grading loopholes, and 'overgrade' a card. Because you and I both know that if this companies 6 is widely seen as that companies 7, but that company would grade it a 6, and this, a 5, we're going with that company.
Just like cars, this company and that company offer a car for the same price, but down the road, is one worth more?
And, we all know there are companies hoofing it on reputation alone, and actual value isnt what the sticker says....
Those are the loopholes you should argue about, because, regardless of whether you intend to sell or not, you want the most value for your dollar. Unless the 'set registry' thing is actually more important than the set itself, which I suspect is the case in all too many cases.
Cynical Realist
Banned from the Beckett boards!
Do you want to know me?
I took the kuntryboy challenge, as he suggested. I picked the 1950's and went for it. Here's what I found:
1955 Koufax PSA 6 $450, Koufax SGC 6 $480.80, Not counting this PSA 6 Koufax that went for $356.19
1955 Killebrew PSA 6 $114.50, Killebrew SGC 5.5 $135 (note that the SGC card is graded LOWER).
1953 JRobby PSA 5 $189, JRobby SGC 5, $208.50
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. <begin sarcasm>As you can see, the man has his facts straight. The marketplace has spoken, and clearly PSA cards command a premium over SGC cards<end sarcasm>. By the way, to be fair, I found a 1955 Topps PSA 7 Hodges that sold for $40 more than an SGC equivalent and a Banks card from the same year (PSA 6 vs SGC 6 I think) where the PSA version sold for a few bucks more.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised by the above. This topic has been very enlightening for me in regards to the marketplace's view on SGC graded cards. And while it certainly had a tone of frustration, probably rightfully so with the kuntryboys and DaBigHurts of the world, I really enjoyed DGF's original dissertation. I can tell you it's made me reconsider some things. . .
<< <i><< DGF
STONE: I have no axe to grind with you or anyone - I think it's unfair and an overstatement to spread this kind of generality. I enjoy your posts and am disappointed in this kind of rhetoric.
It just feels like your attack of Paul is a bit over the top. >>
CTSOX: I agree - sounds like a cheap shot (taken at a lot of people) to me. >>
CT & Stone,
Two guys I like. Not intended for all--but quite a few. It was actually ME who was given the cheap shot. The shot I took was wide open for all to see. Certainly nothing cheap about it. I'm sorry you don't like it. That's the way it goes, I guess. Sour grapes? Perhaps. But my experience with LTS secures many doubts about the hobby for me. The issue I had was handled so poorly it's absurd.
As for my "attack" on Paul. Read again, son. It was me responding to Paul's attack. You see, if people would simply read and respond to posts in an intelligent manner--and stick to topic, this "rhetoric" (the word du jour, by the way) would cease. Your issue is with Paul, not me.
Calleocho,
I have come around to your way of thinking quite a bit. I vehemently disagreed with some of your assertions--although I listened to you--and have begun to see the light. The PSA 10 is an imaginary grade these days for me as well. It occurred to me when I started sleeving my cards raw and assigned grades (for set-building purposes) of MINT, NM, and EX. Those are the only parameters I set for my cards. I don't own any cards below EX. If I did I would designate GOOD and FILLER. My scale put MINT as anything MINT or exceptional to mint. NM would encompass PSA's standard for NM and NM/MT while EX would translate into EX-MT and EX. You're opinion has been proven to the point of fact, I believe. This should show anyone with a brain (most people know I really can't stand you) that I, unlike many, actually listen to the arguments presented and allow for them to develop. It tends to broaden one's scope. Like Yogi Berra said "you can learn a lot by listening."
I invite the rest of you to try it. If you already do, you know the benefits I'm speaking of...downright liberating!!! Thanks Calle. This doesn't mean I actually want to hug you or anything, I just appreciated your feedback.
Bobby,
There is no "rhetoric" here. That seems to be everyone's word du jour. What I stated was enlightened opinion based on empirical fact as relates to my collecting interest. If you choose to view me as holy, you should reconsider. There was nothing in my post (aside from my LTS comments) that should be viewed as confrontational.
Wolfie,
Despite the fact you have issues with my happiness and don't like me, you seem to have a fantastic collection. I also appreciate the freedom with which you collect. You're apologetic tone and zeal for PSA aside, you seem like a fun guy at the very least and knowledgeable about your football. I enjoyed the pics.
dgf
that standard was the standard that we collectors used among ourselves before the surge of (mostly coin dealersand investors) that invaded our hobby in the mid 80's bringing the loupes and dollars with them.
it was a more serene time when 2 people could actually agree on a cards grade, and value. I miss those times.
DGF your a very good guy as is Paul too. Both bring much to the table.
Steve D
Perhaps my choice of words was poor - "attack" - too strong - should be more in line with your return volley - knowing how Wolfie likes to jab - I thought he was in keeping with the style of your writing - which BTW, is flawless and extremely logical - I was trying to say - he jabbed at you - and I felt you went for the jugular - especially comments - whose direction was all encompassing - about LTS - for which I personally felt pain over "your" situation - but the letter of the law prevailed.
I, for one, always enjoy your posts and truly thought Wolfie was just messin with you - heck, he's done it to me! Keep in mind, there is some "tone" or personal "connotative pain" in your words IMO. But, the way the market is going, in certain avenues, I can truly understand how you feel.
And since we all have put out a lot of info - I will go back to something I said in gest but who knows? That, "perhaps down the road everyone will be cracking their holders and putting the cards in binders - it will cut down on collective weight of some collections!" LOL
I hope I have clarified this
and Happy 4th!
mike
<< <i>
<< <i>whats next? we just get along and discuss cards? Stop it now! >>
Speaking of collecting cards,
I don't care what it says on their flips,
cards like these should not be considered chopped liver, just because they're been graded only a 7 :
I agree! Those cards are beauties and I would be proud to have them! They may not be chopped liver but I'll take mine with corned beef on rye!
Happy 4th
mike
1 - "SGC cards have always sold for weak prices."
I guess it depends on how you define "weak prices". One could argue that they sell for less than a same-grade example in PSA holders. I could also argue that many cards in PSA holders are generally overpriced for what the card really is - making the price realized on an SGC or GAI example closer to the real actual value. If you actually look at the "world's greatest marketplace", you'll currently find any gap to be very small. This is especially true of 70s and 80s material - where the prices for both SGC and PSA examples is severely depressed. For the last year or so, SGC96s have generally realized prices very comparable to PSA9s. The primary exception being registry participants chasing the lower-pop PSA-graded stuff with an "I gotta have it now" attitude. Again, my experience with this is primarily in 70s material.
PSA examples sell for what they sell for and SGC examples sell for what they sell for.
2 - "The weak prices are due to consumers lack of confidence in the quality of the SGC product."
This is absolutely ridiculous. Even if you assume that SGC cards sell for "weak prices", the most basic macroeconomics class will tell you that there are lots of factors which influence consumer confidence and price is only one factor. And the level of consumer confidence in a given product cannot be determined on price alone. So what are some other factors, besides price, which indicate a lack of consumer confidence in SGC's product offering?
3 - "It [SGC] is clearly an inferior product. . ."
Based on what criteria, exactly? And inferior to what, exactly? Do you constantly have to babysit your orders with SGC so you can point out which grades you immediately know they got wrong? Do they manage to knick the lower-left corner on about 3-5% of your cards over the course of a year? Do you regularly buy SGC96s on eBay only to find they are worse than your self-submitted SGC88s? Does SGC ever fail to take or return your phone calls? Do you find that SGC gives the larger submitters better deals and better grades from SGC than the little guys? Has SGC completely blown you off when attempting to voice your concerns in a reasoned and well thought-out way?
I've seen and experienced all of these things. . .just not with SGC. So what, exactly, makes you think SGC is an inferior product?
I look forward to reading your difinitive proof at how bad SGC is. I'm sure it will make me feel extremely foolish for building a large (660-card) graded set with them.
Mike
mcastaldi - your comments were absolutely right on the mark. I couldnt have said it better myself. Thanks to both of you for the back up.
and to everyone else - collect what you want and enjoy your collection, but dont keep complaining that your cards were misgraded, damaged, delayed in shipping, encased in a condom, mislabeled etc. You have the choice not to keep giving any particular company your business. If they screw you, move on the someone else.
i will say this, i have a few non sport sets I want graded and sgc will be gettiing them only cuz I feel they do a credible job (psa too would) I just like how they will present in that SGC holder.
The hobby is big enough for 2 or 3 mainstream grading companies.
the hobby is better with 2 or 3 such companies.
steve d
<< <i>great reply mcastaldi
i will say this, i have a few non sport sets I want graded and sgc will be gettiing them only cuz I feel they do a credible job (psa too would) I just like how they will present in that SGC holder.
The hobby is big enough for 2 or 3 mainstream grading companies.
the hobby is better with 2 or 3 such companies.
steve d >>
Good points Steve
Competition is good. Each company will continue to "market" to their respective target group and even try to branch out a bit. That all looks good to me.
As many have said, they like the dark background of the SGC holder for some issues - why PSA doesn't adapt has more to do with cost, most likely, than responding to customer needs.
Considering the fact that the "holder" is key to their product - some of their money should be spent of R&D - and I'm referring to all the companies.
mike
Mike, why not show us that new fashion line you've been working on with the "suburban Sombrero" for weddings?
dgf
<< <i>Mike doesn't know what he's talking about. He wouldn't know a mint card from a large mouth bass. He gets all of his posting info from a gal named Julianne whom he met through a 1-900 psychic number. Back when he was running his massage parlor on Halsted Street in Chicago, a few card collectors came in now and then and he picked up some transient knowledge. I met Mike in prison back in '82 and he knew notta about cards. He did spend a few semesters at a fashion school where he learned some things about proper wedding attire and ceremonial head dressings.
Mike, why not show us that new fashion line you've been working on with the "suburban Sombrero" for weddings?
dgf >>
DGF, you're cool with me. I look forward to your future posts here, no doubt you have been a big help to me in the sets we both collect.
Wow - this thread has about three subplots going all at the same time...it's like Pulp Fiction on CU!
All those examples that you picked were below "7". A couple of 1955 in grades SGC/PSA 5?
A PSA 7 1960 mantle sold for $525 a sgc 7 sold for $350
In the lower grades prices are similar, sometimes even raw cards do quite well.
To me Grading is all about enhancing the value of your card, PSA does this quite well. In some cases Grading adds very little to a card regardless of the grader or the grade. For example 70's cards where many of them sell for less than the grading cost.
Downgoesfrazier,
I Cant believe you are going to be semi-nice to me, you are about the only foe i have around here. We should keep at least a small amount of hostility, just to make things more interesting.
Groucho Marx
<< <i> Cant believe you are going to be semi-nice to me, you are about the only foe i have around here. We should keep at least a small amount of hostility, just to make things more interesting. >>
Good one Rick!
He kind of told me to "mean up" a bit to keep the threads more interesting - I'll keep that in mind myself.
Stone193> "As many have said, they like the dark background of the SGC holder for some issues - why PSA doesn't adapt has more to do with cost, most likely, than responding to customer needs."
Well. . .consider this. . .one of the things that came out of the WIWAG litigation was that PSA admitted that WIWAG had rather successfully compromised the PSA holder. This is as opposed to WIWAG slabbing their own cards with unused plastic. As we sit here today, PSA's holder has remained unchanged for the last several years. So. . .PSA admitted their holder has been compromised - and has done nothing about the holder. If an admitted security problem has not brought PSA to implement changes in their holder, I can't imagine they'd be swayed by a black insert to improve a card's presentation.
calleocho> "To me Grading is all about enhancing the value of your card, PSA does this quite well."
I would agree, PSA does often add value - when they get it right. The problem is the percentage of overgraded stuff out there combined with the fact that a large number of collectors really don't much care if it's accurately graded. Many registry participants would buy a steaming pile encased in plastic if it had the right number on it. But at the end of the day, it's still just a steaming pile encased in plastic. For the stuff I collect, SGC gets it right the most often. If a collector feels that PSA gets it right the most often, then that's what they should buy. But too many collectors, regardless of which holder they buy their cards in, allow themselves to believe that the number that's on the holder must be what the card is - even if their own judgement tells them different. Assuming they choose to use their own judgement.
Mike
To paraphrase a name, "Cards I Just
I got the cards below in a lot of 5 PSA5s, each costing $4.63 postage included. They both have corners that could scratch glass they're so sharp. A good example of BTCNTC, but they would look even sharper with a complimentary complementary background.
(Fyi, Charley has the most minor example of a ding on the reverse I've ever seen and Whitey has a short printer's crease on the front upper right corner which can only be seen with the light at just the right angle.)
I'm happy with PSA grading, but will have to investigate SGC-graded cards a little more thoroughly, I guess, to form an opinion. I'm new at graded-card buying so I appreciate all the information in this and other threads...
hh
Lets say a collector lives in an area where high grade material is hard to find.
Where is the collector going to find enough SGC graded cards to complete a set?
There just isnt enough inventory out there to complete massive 70's sets in SGC.
It is easy to find SGC graded stars, but you are going to have a hard time finding 600+ commons in high grade.
SGC has been might be a good company especially for collectors, but we deal with a market that depends on both buyers and sellers.
SGC opened doors in 1998 and since then it has kept the same low profile, following whatever PSA does and being content with whatever market share they have.
I mean they pride themselves in having a pre war niche, talk about a finite amount of cards to grade.
GAI has taken a much larger slice of the pie and they are the new kids on the block. They intoduced pack grading to the hobby, i am no fan of GAI but at least they try some PR stunts and try to gain exposure.
Groucho Marx
<< <i> No knock on PSA. Grading on eye-appeal alone would result in total chaos. >>
hehe, i could see it now, every don mossi card would be graded a "1" regardless of condition...
(calle: What?! No RRay picture?! What gives??)
Good points raised though about supply of graded commons. I'm a set collector, so that is a very big consideration for me. I'm finding my raw cards aren't worthy so I will need to upgrade by buying from others. I've got my eye on some big lots coming up that contain cards I need yet.
Sorry to hijack this and create another Pulp Plot...
hh
I live in Chicagoland, where there are at least three major shows each year. And I can tell you that even with that, finding examples that I find worth purchasing is still not easy. It takes a lot of work and diligence. But I'll also say that when I built PSA sets (72T twice & 75T), a significant portion of my sets were self-submitted. So while it is harder to do a set in SGC, it's not really that much harder if you're willing to do the work. In addition to shows, you can network with dealers and other collectors to find cards as well.
If you intend to build a high-grade SGC set and want to cross over PSA stuff, I will say that PSA doesn't make it easy. They've become so inconsistent that buying stuff on eBay that you think will cross, much less bump, is usually a crap-shoot.
I will say that I know Phil well enough to know that he could have built his set in SGC holders, almost as easily as in PSA holders and without major shows. Such a significant portion of his set was self-submitted with cards he obtained either from unopened product or purchases of raw from trusted dealers. In fact, toward the end of his set I know he was extremely frustrated because he was rejecting about 80% of his eBay purchases of PSA-slabbed stuff.
It can be done, if you're patient and persistent. Not to say it is easy. . .just that it can be done.
Also. . ."Where is the collector going to find enough SGC graded cards to complete a set?"
Well, I will say that I find building a 70s set in SGC holders to be easier than doing it in PSA holders in the sense that I generally only have to buy an example once if it's in an SGC holder. With PSA-holdered stuff, I'd often have to wade through many inferior or unacceptable examples before finding one I would accept. With PSA-graded stuff, sure there's more of it out there. But who has the time or money to dig through the haystack to find the needle?
Mike
<< <i>Southerncards,
I took the kuntryboy challenge, as he suggested. I picked the 1950's and went for it. Here's what I found:
1955 Koufax PSA 6 $450, Koufax SGC 6 $480.80, Not counting this PSA 6 Koufax that went for $356.19
1955 Killebrew PSA 6 $114.50, Killebrew SGC 5.5 $135 (note that the SGC card is graded LOWER).
1953 JRobby PSA 5 $189, JRobby SGC 5, $208.50
I could go on, but I think you get the idea. <begin sarcasm>As you can see, the man has his facts straight. The marketplace has spoken, and clearly PSA cards command a premium over SGC cards<end sarcasm>. By the way, to be fair, I found a 1955 Topps PSA 7 Hodges that sold for $40 more than an SGC equivalent and a Banks card from the same year (PSA 6 vs SGC 6 I think) where the PSA version sold for a few bucks more.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised by the above. This topic has been very enlightening for me in regards to the marketplace's view on SGC graded cards. And while it certainly had a tone of frustration, probably rightfully so with the kuntryboys and DaBigHurts of the world, I really enjoyed DGF's original dissertation. I can tell you it's made me reconsider some things. . . >>
detroitfan2
Apparently my post went right over your head, but thank you for going out of your way to prove the accuracy of my comments. Let's take a look at the 3 examples that you came up with in an attempt to prove me wrong.
1955 Topps Sandy Koufax Rookie -- invalid example -- high demand card
1953 Topps Jackie Robinson -- invalid example -- high demand card
1955 Topps Harmon Killebrew Rookie -- invalid example -- high demand card
Did I not exclude high demand cards? In my opinion, those are all high demand cards. But even if one would not define those cards as being high demand cards, keep in mind that I did say "the vast majority". Your research shows that "the vast majority" is 100% accurate. Let's face it. You spent your entire morning searching ebay and all you could come up with was 3 examples. 3 examples that most people would view as invalid due to my exclusion of high demand cards.
Thank you again, detroitfan2, for proving the accuracy of my comments. In the future, I would suggest that you have a firmer grasp of any "challenge" that you plan to take on. It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment.
I'm still looking forward to hearing your definitive proof on how bad SGC is. In the future, I would suggest that you do not ignore any "challenge" to your unsubstantiated claims. It will save you a lot of unneccesary embarrassment. And who knows, you might actually even learn something.
But you know. . .on second thought, if saving embarrassment is important to you, it's probably better that you continute to avoid addressing the points I made with something resembling facts.
Mike
<< <i>I look forward to reading your difinitive proof at how bad SGC is. I'm sure it will make me feel extremely foolish for building a large (660-card) graded set with them. >>
<< <i>As I said in my previous post, I look forward to hearing your definitive proof on how bad SGC is. In the future, I would suggest that you do not ignore any "challenge" to your unsubstantiated claims. It will save you a lot of unneccesary embarrassment. And who knows, you might actually even learn something. >>
mcastaldi
I do not recall making any such statement in regards to SGC being so bad. Perhaps in the future you should figure out what claims are being made, and what claims are not being made, before you propose a "challenge". It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment.
Anyway, when comparing two similar products, we basically have three choices -- inferior, equal, superior. The World's Largest Marketplace clearly shows that the market has spoken loud and clear in that the quality of the SGC product is not equal to or superior to that of PSA. The market has spoken with their wallets. I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer. Some people just don't seem to get it.
Sure, some clown can probably find a few random auction results that show that an SGC card sold for equal to (or more than) it's PSA counterpart, but what it really comes down to is the demand. Why can you find 35 times as many PSA cards on ebay at any given time? The PSA Set Registry? Like I said, that's a fallacy. The GAI guys can use that pathetic excuse, but SGC was around long before the PSA Set Registry even existed. PSA's dominance on ebay was the same prior to the existance of the Registry. Ditto with the weak SGC prices.
As for your 660 card SGC graded set, it sounds like you are not comfortable with your decision. What is foolish to one person may not be foolish to another. To each his own. I am not judging you or your decisions. I am curious as to why you are taking my comments so personally.
Having fond childhood memories of the sets that you (and DGF) choose to have encapsulated, I can understand where you are coming from. But, make no mistake, you are playing a game that you can only lose -- regardless of which grading company you choose. The graded 70s/80s era is a financially dangerous segment of the hobby. For the purpose of this discussion, let's appropriately refer to it as "the 4SC era". The major problems that are associated with (but not specific to) the 4SC era are:
1) Gradeflation
2) Politics
3) Holder value
I won't elaborate on the first two problems mentioned above as those may be viewed as too controversial.
With the exception of a few key rookies and some major star cards, when dealing with cards from the 4SC era, you pretty much lose 99% of the card's perceived value at the MINT 9 level if you remove the card from the holder. Even more when dealing with 10's. That alone makes it a fool's game -- without even taking into account the other problems associated with that era. Fool's game or not, some still choose to play. Those who do need to realize that, when 99% of the card's perceived value is derived from the holder, the value of their collection is dependent upon the future of the grading company used.
What is the future of SGC? Where will SGC be in 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?
Who is the President of SGC? What do you know about him? Does he have a good reputation in the hobby? My understanding is that he was a card dealer prior to becoming the President of SGC. Does he directly or indirectly still sell cards? If so, in what holders?
Outside of the few positive experiences you've had with SGC's customer service, what do you really know about SGC?
How does SGC even keep its doors open? Have you ever wondered that?
Why is it that SGC's poster boys have been selling PSA cards in 99% of their ebay auctions during the past year or so?
Maybe you can do some research and then answer my questions. And who knows, you might actually even learn something.
<< <i>But you know. . .on second thought, if saving embarrassment is important to you, it's probably better that you continute to avoid addressing the points I made with something resembling facts. >>
It's obviously not important to you.
Although I buy SGC and PSA, I like R.A.W.
Kuntryboy:
<< <i>I do not recall making any such statement in regards to SGC being so bad. Perhaps in the future you should figure out what claims are being made, and what claims are not being made, before you propose a "challenge". It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment.
>>
Let's go to the video tape, shall we? Earlier, on this VERY program...
kuntryboy:
<< <i>SGC cards have always sold for weak prices. The existence of the PSA set registry didn't change that. The weak prices are due to consumers lack of confidence in the quality of the SGC product. It is clearly an inferior product >>
Okay. Now that issue is put to rest. You are officially full of crape. Now back to the topic...
At the risk of being "holy" again, my post was in response to the thread title and gave an insight, a small but accurate one, to the question at hand. While I digressed some (bad habit--I know, I'm working on it), the facts are what they are. I still love Aerosmith. I can, however, put my childhood warm and fuzzies aside long enough to say they sold out and are not what they once were. I just like MINT cards. Any year, any holder, any time. MINT, MINT, MINT! It doesn't have to be a low-pop or HOF'er. A 1988 topps Gene Nelson can ink my pen just as a sharp '66 Yaz. I love it all. The fact with me is, while I collect CARDS rather than holders, I find a higher percentage of high-end beauties in SGC holders than PSA. It's just that simple. I have a really good idea of the quality I'm getting when I buy an SGC 96 UNSEEN. With PSA I need a huge scan and a personal relationship with the seller to trust the quality. This is not a bias, but rather a conditioned response to PSA overgrading cards.
I'm okay with the fact that my 1977 or 1978 set will never break the bank. My issue is with PSA's inability to stabilize the target long enough for those cards to be appreciated. They just started handing out 9's & 10's to keep the subs coming and the cards got prematurely devalued. That conscious decision on their part just ruined it for me. For the guy who submits infrequently, is not too discerning, not educated in the nuances-nor cares to be, or purchases primarily off of eBay or mail order, the difference will be hard to notice. When you submit the same issue and condition over a period of years, the difference is obvious. Painfully so.
This is typically where a couple of insecure collectors chime in and say I insulted them by generalizing. Guys, one MUST generalize here. This is about nobody in particular and I recognize we all have different means and skills and desires. I'm only referring to PSA's grading here--not anybody's methods of collecting.
Calleocho,
Small hug, I guess.
Mike,
Where's the wedding pic with the Somby???
dgf
Thank you. Appreciated.
dgf
pretty soon, he and dabighurt will be fighting for crotch space.....
<< <i>kunt,
Kuntryboy:
<< I do not recall making any such statement in regards to SGC being so bad. Perhaps in the future you should figure out what claims are being made, and what claims are not being made, before you propose a "challenge". It will save you a lot of unnecessary embarrassment.
>>
Let's go to the video tape, shall we? Earlier, on this VERY program...
kuntryboy:
<< SGC cards have always sold for weak prices. The existence of the PSA set registry didn't change that. The weak prices are due to consumers lack of confidence in the quality of the SGC product. It is clearly an inferior product >>
Okay. Now that issue is put to rest. You are officially full of crape. Now back to the topic... >>
DGF
Ignorant post.
Nowhere in this thread have I said that "SGC is so bad". Inferior product as determined by the consumers, yes. And all of the proof is here. There's a reason why PSA cards outnumber SGC cards on ebay by a 35:1 ratio. The market has spoken loud and clear as to which service offers a superior product. If the consumers felt that SGC was the superior product, dealers would take note and you'd see more SGC cards on ebay. Nothing more needs to be said about that.
What I find very entertaining is that you actually believe that you are an "astute collector". In the year 2005, "astute collector" is an oxymoron. Take a good hard look at the beginning of SDavid's post on the first page of this thread for a reality check. He hit the nail on the head, and would you like to guess which New Jersey city the rejects are sent to? That's after an unsuccessful trip to Irvine.
The idea that cards in one slab sell for more than cards in the other's slab simply because of the slab is preposterous.
The fact is, any of us can go and find examples of one slab selling for higher than another. All you need is a card that sold in each company's holder - one fetched a higher price than the other. You could do 20 Ebay searches right now and find 10 that went one way and 10 that went the other. Unfortunately, there are a million variables that impact what a card sells for at any given time.
For example, I am under the impression that the most money ever paid (on record) for a set of baseball cards, was for a 1914 Cracker Jack set, in SGC slabs. Conversely, I'm under the impression (which could, of course, be wrong) that the most money ever paid (on record) for a single card was for a PSA-8 Wagner.
Was it the slab, or the cards, that drove the prices so high?
SGC cards sell for insane prices at auction all the time. So do PSA cards. There is a larger population of PSA cards on Ebay, and in the secondary market in general, for three reasons: 1) PSA has an eight-year head start on SGC in terms of being in business, 2) PSA invented the set registry, which created a demand for a large volume of commons, and 3) A large portion of SGC cards are graded and then become part of private collections, where they stay.
The bottom line is, if a person needs a particular card, do they hold off on buying it if it's in the wrong slab? Or in a slab in general? Personally, I don't think so. I've cracked PSA cards for my SGC sets, and I've cracked SGC cards for my PSA sets. I've bought raw cards and submitted them to both companies, and I've cracked cards out of both companies' slabs and kept 'em raw. Hell, once in a while, I'll even buy a card in a Global holder.
Lots of factors happen every day of the week that impact a company's "values":
-Two people competing for a particular set. Seems like every day there's a card bid up to a ridiculous price on Ebay, and when you check the bid history, it's just two guys bidding against each other. In this case, it doesn't matter WHO slabbed the card - both guys need the card!
-Grading company A does a monthly grading special on a particular era of card. Two months later, those cards flood the secondary market, as people who have been hoarding them, waiting for the grading special, receive back their submissions. Suddenly it seems like there are a million cards from that era, all in the same slabs, for sale everywhere. This depresses the prices on, umm, the world's biggest marketplace, or whatever you call it.
-A handful of major auctions, all within a few months of one another. This just happened in the spring, with four or five major auctions all back-to-back. My opinion is that this pulled a lot of the "money" collectors off Ebay for a while, and created some great bargains. At least it felt like it did, as I was buying cards significantly under their normal value on Ebay all spring.
-Where the other cards are. For example, if there are four PSA-8 examples of a certain card in existence, and three of them are already in registry sets, when that fourth one hits Ebay, the price is going to be ridiculous. The population of that card may be 4, but in reality, its only 1, because the other three will never be sold. This happens a lot, particularly among registry collectors.
-Umm, the card itself is nice. Believe it or not, some people actually collect cards.
PSA has a very active registry right now. It's fun to be a part of. But it is NOT the slab that drives up the price of a PSA card. It's the GPA, the registry competition, the card itself, the demand, or any number of other factors. The only time I've ever seen the SLAB be the reason for a card's price, is when it has GEM or PRO or some other such garbage on it, in which case, the card sells for a low price.
Customer loyalty is a great thing. Companies go to great lengths to create loyal customers, and when they're successful at it, it's a thing of beauty. I'm sure PSA is pleased at the perception that their cards sell for more money. However, the fact is that the delta between the two companies' selling prices has gotten very slim, for the most part - if there's even a delta anymore. There are, of course, some issues that routinely sell better in PSA slabs, and others that sell better in SGC, but that's a function of the cards and the collectors, not the slab.
And before any dealers jump on me, telling me "You're wrong, I sell 'Company X' slabs for tons of money": crack 50% of your 'Company X' slabs and have 'Company Y' reholder them. They'll sell just fine.
-Al
Dude, give it a rest. You said- and we all saw it- that SGC is clearly an inferior product. Now that's fine-- you're entitled to your opinion. Just recognize that a lot of very knowledgable collectors disagree with you.
GG