I have no idea what did or did not happen to the card other than a friend of a friend apparently trying to remove the stain. And I don't know how he tried to do that. I'm just reasonably sure that a former 6 is now an 8.
I would say that's the same card. I can't tell from the PSA 8 scan the condition of the top right corner, but in the PSA 6 scan it looks as if there is a slight "ding" to the corner. Obviously if they tried to remove the stain it didn't work, but in the PSA 8 scan the card does look whiter.
<< <i>I would say that's the same card. I can't tell from the PSA 8 scan the condition of the top right corner, but in the PSA 6 scan it looks as if there is a slight "ding" to the corner. Obviously if they tried to remove the stain it didn't work, but in the PSA 8 scan the card does look whiter. >>
I think the whiteness difference is the scanner. The PSA label on card A looks yellower than the label on card B.
FWIW, I purchased a raw Clemente card from this dealer, advertised as NM, that had a crease pressed out of it when I got it. I returned it for a full refund, no questions asked. Draw your own conclusions, I will only say that a) I was satisfied with the service I received, and I would probably buy from him again, and b) buyer beware on Ebay. If you buy raw, buy it from a trusted seller that has a return policy, and examine your stuff carefully when you get it. Don't rely on PSA to do it or you can forget about getting a refund when your card comes back as trimmed, altered, etc.
Stay classy,
Ron
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports. Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Good for Shaderise if he is making money. Even if the implications (alligations?) are true he is doing nothing illegal or even immoral. I happen to accept whatever grade I get but there are a LOT of people on these boards that crack and re-submit all the time. Are they any better than Shaderise? IF a person is actually doctoring cards that's different but without any proof it doesn't seem we should accuse!?
<< <i>Even if the implications (alligations?) are true he is doing nothing illegal or even immoral. >>
The implication is that shaderise is doctoring cards, specifically in this case building up a corner or 2 and perhaps even doing a little bleaching. I'd call that immoral.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
I guess I am not convinced by the "evidence" above. It's one thing to say a seller is slow to mail cards but to suggest doctoring cards!? I would be quite upset if I were Shaderise! I have bought cards from the person and they look good to me! I find it hard to believe that someone can doctor cards well enough to get by PSA. As DaBig would say, "it's a group of highly trained professionals..." so they wouldn't grade a doctored card!
<< <i>Good for Shaderise if he is making money. Even if the implications (alligations?) are true he is doing nothing illegal or even immoral. I happen to accept whatever grade I get but there are a LOT of people on these boards that crack and re-submit all the time. Are they any better than Shaderise? IF a person is actually doctoring cards that's different but without any proof it doesn't seem we should accuse!? >>
But what fun would that be? Also, if we want to be technical, all he's doing is selling a Richard PSA 8. He's not guaranteeing that the card isn't doctored-- PSA is. The price that the card finally fetches will ultimately reflect the degree of confidence that the buyer has in PSA; not in the seller.
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone can doctor cards well enough to get by PSA. >>
Are you for real? At least DBH seems to make such statements with tongue firmly in cheek.
But I do generally agree with your other point. Like I said, I have no idea if the card was doctored, but I am fairly sure a PSA 6 is now a PSA 8. If it's a simple case of shaderise or whoever owned the card between me and him getting lucky while spinning the Wheel of Crack 'N' Resubmit, then good for that person. We can all play that game. But if there's something more nefarious going on (including but not limited to trimming, rebuilding, bleaching, soaking and pressing), then I hope that person faces some seriously bad hobby karma sometime soon.
I hope no one here is naive enough to think that a significant percentage of their slabbed cards have not been worked on to varying degrees. It's a lucrative practice that extends to even lower graded cards. Plenty O' money to be made on "fixer uppers".
-If you send a decent trim job to any of the big 3 eventually it will get through
-Beckett WILL grade sheet cuts
-Creases and wrinkles are in some cases very easily removed
-Many stains and tape marks are pretty easy to remove as well
-Dinged corners are easily "spooned" down
-There is also alot more advanced methods of alteration that would make your stomach do cartwheels
- I would venture to say that MORE than half of the high grade pre-war material out there has been worked on
In addition to card altering MANY dealers make a living out of cracking and crossing and will continue to submit the same card over and over until they can no longer sell it for a profit.
Just because it's in the holder of a reputable company like PSA or SGC it doesn't mean much, people have been making a dishonest buck by fooling the "experts" long before third party sportscard grading came along.
As for Global, the half grade bump is the bedrock of their business.
<< <i>"As for Global, the half grade bump is the bedrock of their business."
Once again, another inane comment without any supporting evidence.
>>
So, I guess I must have eaten bad mushrooms during 2000-2001 when and Mike and Steve would come to the big dealer set ups with a business proposition which amounted to little more than selling "bumps" . Heck it sure looked like them.
What's even funnier is that alot of the guys that bought into the spiel still have "Shoeboxes" of "First Graded" slabs. As a news personality I'm surprised you didn't hear that National Dealers won't touch a Global card unless it's for a significant discount .
Maybe next year, Global Cards will start outselling lower graded PSA and SGC slabs at the auction houses.
Has Global settled into their new, low rent digs yet ?
"So, I guess I must have eaten bad mushrooms during 2000-2001 when and Mike and Steve would come to the big dealer set ups with a business proposition which amounted to little more than selling "bumps" . Heck it sure looked like them.
What's even funnier is that alot of the guys that bought into the spiel still have "Shoeboxes" of "First Graded" slabs. As a news personality I'm surprised you didn't hear that National Dealers won't touch a Global card unless it's for a significant discount ."
So now you're throwing something out there from 5 years ago as "evidence"? What, specifically, was this business proposition?
It's awfully odd to me how so many people choose to attack their grading as "dealer-friendly" rather than the quality of their grading itself. Perhaps that is because few people dispute Mike Baker's grading ability, or perhaps its because there's nothing to support the dealer friendly charge other than rumor and innuendo. Or perhaps it's both.
Stay classy,
Ron
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports. Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i> So now you're throwing something out there from 5 years ago as "evidence"? What, specifically, was this business proposition?
It's awfully odd to me how so many people choose to attack their grading as "dealer-friendly" rather than the quality of their grading itself. Perhaps that is because few people dispute Mike Baker's grading ability, or perhaps its because there's nothing to support the dealer friendly charge other than rumor and innuendo. Or perhaps it's both.
>>
Baker and Rocchi pioneered the art of the back room deal when they were with PSA and sought to master it with Global by making guarantees on the percentage of "bumps" per cards submitted for crossover, before they even made it to the graders! Moreover, the were so eager for submissions they merely gave the cards in question a cursory glance before "shaking" on it. No innuendo or rumor, just what I witnessed.
Sorry, I neglected to point out my total lack of faith in Global grading. I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence and testimonials on this board . I haven't purchased a Global Card in nearly 2 years , but early on it was clearly evident that the bar was set very low particularly with the half grades. The cards are very tough to cross and more rare ; an occasion when they grade higher by PSA or SGC. Big ticket cards in a Global holders should automatically send up a flag when they are up for sale since any seller worth his salt knows they will turn a significantly larger profit by having the card slabbed by PSA or SGC, and often times in spite of a lower grade
It's common knowledge to experienced dealers, buyers and collectors is that there are a few reasons premium cards are in Global holders and none of them are good. Despite all the talent of Mike Baker it's often for naught when quotas or percentages have to be met and promises kept.
It's just my experience but the "zero" cert holders turned out by PSA during the Baker / Rocchi era are often on low end or less of the current PSA grading scale . An argument can certainly be made that Baker is one of the most knowlegable men in the hobby, be that as it may, but from what I have seen he is still a very liberal grader.
I have no animosity or agenda against Global or Baker, I just count myself lucky that I was able to liquidate my Global holders before the crash and would encourage or advise others to do the same. Perhaps , If I still had significant cash tied up in Global holders I would tow the company line. To each his own, if you're happy with Global far be it for me to chastise your contentment.
This has turned out to be an uncharacteristically volumnous post for me and I reckon I've said my piece and see no cause for further comment.
Steve - What is it with you and the 53-54 Parkie Richard card? Does it look like somebody tried to remove the stain on the PSA 8 card or is it simply a matter of the corner being improved?
Tell me about, Albie. It's a great-looking card, but one I should probably never even think of reacquiring.
Anyway, my buddy told me that the guy to whom he sold it cracked it out and attempted to remove the stain. I got the sense that he just tried rubbing it out because my friend said that the guy actually worsened the condition of the card through his failed attempt to remove the ghost puck. I have no idea if anyone along the line used more invasive procedures (e.g. bathing or bleaching) to try to remove the stain. The card does look whiter in the scan of the PSA 8, but as someone said, that could just be a function of different scanners and settings.
But I have to speculate that somebody did something to that upper right corner. When I had the card, the corner was slightly dinged. I always thought the card could've passed for a 7 without the stain, but there was no way - stain or not - that the card would've been 8 worthy. And again, I can't guess as to how the card's appearance was changed. It might simply have been a case of totally mashing the ding down in a screwdown holder - the way many of us probably used to do back in the day.
Assuming the ding doesn't reappear - and I suspect that assumption requires at least a little leap of faith - I suppose I can live with the non-extraordinary corner press as a fair hobby practice. Still, I think it's important for the hobby to know the history of its cards, when possible. Just as there's carfax.com, we need a cardfax.com.
It's pretty clear now that Shaderise is slabbing most of his stuff and only selling raw the stuff that is too expensive to slab or that there might be something wrong with.
Ron
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports. Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Comments
<< <i>I would say that's the same card. I can't tell from the PSA 8 scan the condition of the top right corner, but in the PSA 6 scan it looks as if there is a slight "ding" to the corner. Obviously if they tried to remove the stain it didn't work, but in the PSA 8 scan the card does look whiter. >>
I think the whiteness difference is the scanner. The PSA label on card A looks yellower than the label on card B.
That surely looks like the same card.
My Auctions
Whoever 'repaired' that top right corner did a very nice job of it.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>Whoever 'repaired' that top right corner did a very nice job of it.
I think that could appear better from the scan as well. It may have been repaired, but the scan on B is not good enough to see how well.
There is a mark in the top border, about half way between the centerpoint and the right edge taht is on bot cards. That IS the same card
My Auctions
Before :
and after :
If it's the same card, then we have a 'doctor' in the house ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>Even if the implications (alligations?) are true he is doing nothing illegal or even immoral. >>
The implication is that shaderise is doctoring cards, specifically in this case building up a corner or 2 and perhaps even doing a little bleaching. I'd call that immoral.
<< <i>Good for Shaderise if he is making money. Even if the implications (alligations?) are true he is doing nothing illegal or even immoral. I happen to accept whatever grade I get but there are a LOT of people on these boards that crack and re-submit all the time. Are they any better than Shaderise? IF a person is actually doctoring cards that's different but without any proof it doesn't seem we should accuse!? >>
But what fun would that be? Also, if we want to be technical, all he's doing is selling a Richard PSA 8. He's not guaranteeing that the card isn't doctored-- PSA is. The price that the card finally fetches will ultimately reflect the degree of confidence that the buyer has in PSA; not in the seller.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>I find it hard to believe that someone can doctor cards well enough to get by PSA. >>
Are you for real? At least DBH seems to make such statements with tongue firmly in cheek.
But I do generally agree with your other point. Like I said, I have no idea if the card was doctored, but I am fairly sure a PSA 6 is now a PSA 8. If it's a simple case of shaderise or whoever owned the card between me and him getting lucky while spinning the Wheel of Crack 'N' Resubmit, then good for that person. We can all play that game. But if there's something more nefarious going on (including but not limited to trimming, rebuilding, bleaching, soaking and pressing), then I hope that person faces some seriously bad hobby karma sometime soon.
-If you send a decent trim job to any of the big 3 eventually it will get through
-Beckett WILL grade sheet cuts
-Creases and wrinkles are in some cases very easily removed
-Many stains and tape marks are pretty easy to remove as well
-Dinged corners are easily "spooned" down
-There is also alot more advanced methods of alteration that would make your stomach do cartwheels
- I would venture to say that MORE than half of the high grade pre-war material out there has been worked on
In addition to card altering MANY dealers make a living out of cracking and crossing and will continue to submit the same card over and over until they can no longer sell it for a profit.
Just because it's in the holder of a reputable company like PSA or SGC it doesn't mean much, people have been making a dishonest buck by fooling the "experts" long before third party sportscard grading came along.
As for Global, the half grade bump is the bedrock of their business.
Once again, another inane comment without any supporting evidence.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>"As for Global, the half grade bump is the bedrock of their business."
Once again, another inane comment without any supporting evidence.
>>
So, I guess I must have eaten bad mushrooms during 2000-2001 when and Mike and Steve would come to the big dealer set ups with a business proposition which amounted to little more than selling "bumps" . Heck it sure looked like them.
What's even funnier is that alot of the guys that bought into the spiel still have "Shoeboxes" of "First Graded" slabs. As a news personality I'm surprised you didn't hear that National Dealers won't touch a Global card unless it's for a significant discount .
Maybe next year, Global Cards will start outselling lower graded PSA and SGC slabs at the auction houses.
Has Global settled into their new, low rent digs yet ?
What's even funnier is that alot of the guys that bought into the spiel still have "Shoeboxes" of "First Graded" slabs. As a news personality I'm surprised you didn't hear that National Dealers won't touch a Global card unless it's for a significant discount ."
So now you're throwing something out there from 5 years ago as "evidence"? What, specifically, was this business proposition?
It's awfully odd to me how so many people choose to attack their grading as "dealer-friendly" rather than the quality of their grading itself. Perhaps that is because few people dispute Mike Baker's grading ability, or perhaps its because there's nothing to support the dealer friendly charge other than rumor and innuendo. Or perhaps it's both.
Stay classy,
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>
So now you're throwing something out there from 5 years ago as "evidence"? What, specifically, was this business proposition?
It's awfully odd to me how so many people choose to attack their grading as "dealer-friendly" rather than the quality of their grading itself. Perhaps that is because few people dispute Mike Baker's grading ability, or perhaps its because there's nothing to support the dealer friendly charge other than rumor and innuendo. Or perhaps it's both.
>>
Baker and Rocchi pioneered the art of the back room deal when they were with PSA and sought to master it with Global by making guarantees on the percentage of "bumps" per cards submitted for crossover, before they even made it to the graders! Moreover, the were so eager for submissions they merely gave the cards in question a cursory glance before "shaking" on it. No innuendo or rumor, just what I witnessed.
Sorry, I neglected to point out my total lack of faith in Global grading. I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence and testimonials on this board . I haven't purchased a Global Card in nearly 2 years , but early on it was clearly evident that the bar was set very low particularly with the half grades. The cards are very tough to cross and more rare ; an occasion when they grade higher by PSA or SGC. Big ticket cards in a Global holders should automatically send up a flag when they are up for sale since any seller worth his salt knows they will turn a significantly larger profit by having the card slabbed by PSA or SGC, and often times in spite of a lower grade
It's common knowledge to experienced dealers, buyers and collectors is that there are a few reasons premium cards are in Global holders and none of them are good. Despite all the talent of Mike Baker it's often for naught when quotas or percentages have to be met and promises kept.
It's just my experience but the "zero" cert holders turned out by PSA during the Baker / Rocchi era are often on low end or less of the current PSA grading scale . An argument can certainly be made that Baker is one of the most knowlegable men in the hobby, be that as it may, but from what I have seen he is still a very liberal grader.
I have no animosity or agenda against Global or Baker, I just count myself lucky that I was able to liquidate my Global holders before the crash and would encourage or advise others to do the same. Perhaps , If I still had significant cash tied up in Global holders I would tow the company line. To each his own, if you're happy with Global far be it for me to chastise your contentment.
This has turned out to be an uncharacteristically volumnous post for me and I reckon I've said my piece and see no cause for further comment.
Many happy returns in your cardboard pursuits,
M.
Anyway, my buddy told me that the guy to whom he sold it cracked it out and attempted to remove the stain. I got the sense that he just tried rubbing it out because my friend said that the guy actually worsened the condition of the card through his failed attempt to remove the ghost puck. I have no idea if anyone along the line used more invasive procedures (e.g. bathing or bleaching) to try to remove the stain. The card does look whiter in the scan of the PSA 8, but as someone said, that could just be a function of different scanners and settings.
But I have to speculate that somebody did something to that upper right corner. When I had the card, the corner was slightly dinged. I always thought the card could've passed for a 7 without the stain, but there was no way - stain or not - that the card would've been 8 worthy. And again, I can't guess as to how the card's appearance was changed. It might simply have been a case of totally mashing the ding down in a screwdown holder - the way many of us probably used to do back in the day.
Assuming the ding doesn't reappear - and I suspect that assumption requires at least a little leap of faith - I suppose I can live with the non-extraordinary corner press as a fair hobby practice. Still, I think it's important for the hobby to know the history of its cards, when possible. Just as there's carfax.com, we need a cardfax.com.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
If the card is for you and you believe the grader missed the mark the first time, do you really want them grading it again?
If the card is for sale and you have any morals, can you honestly sell something that was in a lower grade holder and feel good about that?
pat
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