Modern Card Prices Rant...
julen23
Posts: 4,558 ✭✭
2001 Ultimate Collection #116 Mark Prior psa 10 $750
2001 Ultimate Collection #120 Ichiro Suzukie psa 10 $800
2001 Bowman Chrome #340 Albert Pujols psa 10 $1300
2001 Donruss Elite #250 Mark Teixeira psa 10 $225
2003 Ultimate Collection #169 Hideki Matsui psa 10 $300
I find these prices really hard to fathom? Are collectors paying these prices for modern cards?
Seems like "risk seeking" collecting to me.
Julen
_________
Collecting:
1980 Topps: Over 4,000 cards from vending and wax boxes awaiting a giant bonfire
1969 Topps Master: # 1 1
1987 Kraft Home Plate Heroes
2001 Ultimate Collection #120 Ichiro Suzukie psa 10 $800
2001 Bowman Chrome #340 Albert Pujols psa 10 $1300
2001 Donruss Elite #250 Mark Teixeira psa 10 $225
2003 Ultimate Collection #169 Hideki Matsui psa 10 $300
I find these prices really hard to fathom? Are collectors paying these prices for modern cards?
Seems like "risk seeking" collecting to me.
Julen
_________
Collecting:
1980 Topps: Over 4,000 cards from vending and wax boxes awaiting a giant bonfire
1969 Topps Master: # 1 1
1987 Kraft Home Plate Heroes
RIP GURU
0
Comments
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Stingray
<< <i>2001 Bowman Chrome #340 Albert Pujols psa 10 $1300 >>
Just curious where you saw that price? Last PSA 10 I saw sold for 12k. 8's will sell for 1300 and 9's go from 1800-3500 depending on how the wind is blowing.
Can't say I agree or disagree with people paying those prices for modern cards. I agree with DBH here on this one, I'd rather pay that kind of dough for a hot modern card than a low-pop 50's common but everyone will invest in, and collect what they want so I guess I have no problem with it. I personally have a hard time paying those kinds of prices for a modern card, especially if I can find an ungraded or lower graded one for a lot less money, but that's just me.
The Matsui, Teixeira and Pujols prices are actually pretty low. The Ichiro price is a bit low, but not out of the ordinary. The Prior sale surprises me a lot. If I owned anything of that guy I'd be dumping it...but, if that's a very recent sale the upcoming sportsfest (in chicago) and the upcoming Nationals (again in Chicago) could explain some of that. My buddy used to buy Jordan auto's for 3-400 each before Sportsfest, those exact same cards would sell for 500+ in the month or so leading up to sportsfest. So that may explain that one...
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
I'm sure some of the post-2000 cards will become classic, which one is the gamble.
<< <i>Despite what the vintage snobs think
I'm sure some of the post-2000 cards will become classic, which one is the gamble. >>
Speaking of the '82 Topps Traded Ripken, I traded mine for a crappy version, full of print dots, 1986-87 Fleer Karl Malone RC...Pure genius...
Stingray
Julen
_________
Collecting:
1980 Topps: Over 4,000 cards from vending and wax boxes awaiting a giant bonfire
1969 Topps Master: # 1 1
1987 Kraft Home Plate Heroes
RIP GURU
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Don't discount the fact that many collectors want a piece of the player and ride the success of the player with them. Spending $1500 for a Bowman chrome auto Pujols IS a lot of money, but you also get the satisfaction of following your player (watching Baseball Tonight on ESPN and seeing Pujol go 3-4, drive in 3 runs and hit a homer or following him in the daily box scores). Will the day to day performance push the value of a $1500 modern card up much? No, but it's fun to own the card and outside fantasy baseball, there aren't many other tangible ways for a collector/fan to enjoy the success of their favorite player with them. >>
sounds good, better than waiting for them to die to watch the prices go up!
anyway, yeah to every man his own. If you want to buy a Cabrera RC for $3,000 thinking it will be worth $10,000 someday... go right ahead. but I think your money would be much better off with high grade pre-war low POP HOF for those prices. With pre-war, there are NO surprises. The players are dead, they are already in the HOF. These new guys are one injury or social mistake away from being another bo jackson, jose canseco, strawberry, gooden, etc...
You have to remember 99.9% of the time with these modern guys, we are assuming they will continue torrid paces for another 10-15 years. If they slow down a bit, the cards tank. if they get injured, the cards tank, if they turn into an asss, buy some whores, ride some rails, etc... the cards go down. If a new "hype machine wonder" comes along, the "old" guys cards tank.
shoot for the .1%, something for nothing is always exciting. one last lesson... knowing when to buy is easy. knowing when to sell is the hard part.
GG
Julen
_________
Collecting:
1980 Topps: Over 4,000 cards from vending and wax boxes awaiting a giant bonfire
1969 Topps Master: # 1 1
1987 Kraft Home Plate Heroes
RIP GURU
As for the 1984 Donruss Mattingly RC, if you want to buy a PSA 10, you'll HAVE to pay pretty big bucks, quite a bit more than what the same card went for at its peak value in the '80s, and it doesn't matter if he's never getting into the HOF. It's a landmark card that collectors who came of age in the 1980s still covet! Yankee fans still covet this card. And oh yeah, and top grades have changed everything. You can still buy a PSA 6 Mattingly for about $2.
Yeah, Mattingly RCs are dead..
lalala
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Key modern rookies like Mattingly and Ripken have something a lot of vintage doesn't have - mass appeal. Most collectors that don't have thousands to spend will buy a a nice 1980's rookie. To me it seems like the same people are buying the older stuff.
DaBig hit the nail on the head - modern is modern and vintage is vintage. A 20 yr old buys the card that "he or she" can relate to - and enjoy - the investment is relative to their age group and appeal.
I'm a modern/vintage collector - and I agree, again, with DaBig - chasing a low pop will pique the imagination of a modern collector in the same way the vintage collector is scratching his head over a 1500$ 2 yr old card.
mike
I love the hunt more than the kill, but that is just me. oh yea, i like to preserve my investment too, so mid-high grade pre-war is my bag baby!!!
GG
<< <i>Now that Sandberg is in, Mattingly is the top player that is not in the HOF.
>>
Um...Bert Blyleven says "hi."
So does Ron Santo.
<< <i>Sure there is a lot of modern junk out there, but the one thing that many vintage card collectors fail to realize is that without a modern card market, the vintage card market will never get "new life". >>
This is true, and I think that many people are too quick to trash the game used cards of vintage players. A young collecter that pulls a game used bat card of a player from the 50's or 60's is exposed to an player and era that he might not know too much about. If you ever read the Beckett boards, there are tons of collectors that are actively pursuing cards of both hot young rookies and classic players from decades ago. There's one guy who's signature line says he collects some young prosect and Ted Kluszewski. His sig even says "Played in the 1950s." Now, I have no idea how old this collector is, but I think that's pretty cool, and I would bet you he was exposed to Klu through a game used or similar insert in a modern set.
I firmly believe many of these collectors will begin branching out into vintage cards as their age and incomes increase. We also forget that cost has a lot to do with it. Most kids can afford a $5 pack that gives them a chane of pulling a $600 Albert Pujols 1/1 auto refractor whatchamacallit. Not many kids can afford $600 for a PSA 8 1965 Mickey Mantle. So, now they collect the cards they can afford with the players they know. If they stay with the hobby their attention will eventually turn to older cards. Isn't that how *all* of us started. All of us collected Ken Griffey Jr or Will Clark or Cal Ripken or Reggie Jackson or Pete Rose or Hank Aaron or Stan Musial or Ted Williams or Hank Greenberg when they were the "hot new thing." We were kids and that's what kids do. The only difference is that now the cards are worth a *lot* more and they know it.
Who knows, maybe 15 years ago the Klu collector mentioned above will be bidding against you for that 1953 Bowman Color Whitey Ford you need to complete the set.
<< <i>I'm 30 and I can't relate to any pre-war player stone >>
GG
First of all, I was making a general statement in support of DaBig and of course, there are exceptions and you are it - but you are here and not on the Beckett board where a lot more of the people I am talking about reside.
Plus, there's a big difference between 20 and 30 when it comes to maturity of taste and the direction one might go in their collecting. It's nice to see people with an eye for the future and a foot in the door of the past.
And I apologize, I didn't mean to exclude you and others who are part of a more sophisticated collecting group - I'm just saying that many teenagers and 20 yrs olds with a lot of dough to spend are more likely to get excited about Pujols than someone like Cobb who they never saw play and never will.
<< <i>I collect both modern and vintage cards, in both raw and graded form. Sure there is a lot of modern junk out there, but the one thing that many vintage card collectors fail to realize is that without a modern card market, the vintage card market will never get "new life". >>
Sean
Right on! We have had this discussion many times - there's a special symbiotic relationship between modern and vintage that can't be denied. There can be denial...but the fact is....vintage owes it's future viability to the modern collectors of today.
mike
<< <i>1984 Donruss Mattingly will always have buyers. It is a popular card even among non-Yankee fans. He was one of the best players in the 1980's and there is a chance he gets in the HOF. Now that Sandberg is in, Mattingly is the top player that is not in the HOF.
Key modern rookies like Mattingly and Ripken have something a lot of vintage doesn't have - mass appeal. Most collectors that don't have thousands to spend will buy a a nice 1980's rookie. To me it seems like the same people are buying the older stuff. >>
Why anyone would spent $1600 on a 84 mattingly is beyond me. He won't make the HoF (Sorry yankee lovers), and there just (to me) is no justifiable cause why this card would sell for so much.
Yes he was a great player for a few years, and I guess there is a lot of sentimental value behind this card....but $1600 worth? Is it just me who thinks that price is vastly more than this card will ever be worth?
Anyways, i think you are going to see fewer and fewer people who do make the shift from modern to vintage...or their idea of vintage being 80s stuff...I think you'll see the number of people going into pre-75 shrinking instead of growing as the number of fans today who are interested in the history of the game just won't be as high.
<< <i>Why anyone would spent $1600 on a 84 mattingly is beyond me >>
Ax
Altho, this is a modern card - I thought that Julen was really talking about the truly comtemporary cards of active players who are commanding some righteous bucks.
I really think that a kid who has the dough will be more apt to pick up the Pujols than really nice recent HOF'er like Boggs e.g.
<< <i>Anyways, i think you are going to see fewer and fewer people who do make the shift from modern to vintage >>
IMO, this will not happen. There will always be people to make the jump.
mike
<< <i>Anyways, i think you are going to see fewer and fewer people who do make the shift from modern to vintage >>
IMO, this will not happen. There will always be people to make the jump.
mike >>
I am not saying there won't be any, but I suspect the number of people who get interested in the history of the game enough to invest in vintage is going to dwindle...there will of course be those who delve into the vintage market, but I think with today's youth and their attention to today's game (all you need to do is look at the ridiculous amounts some modern is commanding) and you'll see where they are investing their money.
<< <i>
<< <i>1984 Donruss Mattingly will always have buyers. It is a popular card even among non-Yankee fans. He was one of the best players in the 1980's and there is a chance he gets in the HOF. Now that Sandberg is in, Mattingly is the top player that is not in the HOF.
Key modern rookies like Mattingly and Ripken have something a lot of vintage doesn't have - mass appeal. Most collectors that don't have thousands to spend will buy a a nice 1980's rookie. To me it seems like the same people are buying the older stuff. >>
Why anyone would spent $1600 on a 84 mattingly is beyond me. He won't make the HoF (Sorry yankee lovers), and there just (to me) is no justifiable cause why this card would sell for so much.
Yes he was a great player for a few years, and I guess there is a lot of sentimental value behind this card....but $1600 worth? Is it just me who thinks that price is vastly more than this card will ever be worth?
Anyways, i think you are going to see fewer and fewer people who do make the shift from modern to vintage...or their idea of vintage being 80s stuff...I think you'll see the number of people going into pre-75 shrinking instead of growing as the number of fans today who are interested in the history of the game just won't be as high. >>
I disagree with these statements. First of all, Mattingly will most likely not make the Hall of Fame, but, name me a more popular player in the '80s than the 'Hit Man'. He was in baseball's biggest market and he had a HUGE following. Numbers are great for the HOF and Mattingly had great, great numbers for a few years, but let's not forget a player's popularity in determining a RC's value. There are many players from the 80's that will make, or already have made the Hall on the first ballot, Gwynn, Boggs, Brett, Yount, Murray, etc. But, besides some regional popularity, name me a player that had more nationwide appeal than Mattingly...
Mark
<< <i>
name me a more popular player in the '80s than the 'Hit Man'. He was in baseball's biggest market and he had a HUGE following. Numbers are great for the HOF and Mattingly had great, great numbers for a few years, but let's not forget a player's popularity in determining a RC's value. There are many players from the 80's that will make, or already have made the Hall on the first ballot, Gwynn, Boggs, Brett, Yount, Murray, etc. But, besides some regional popularity, name me a player that had more nationwide appeal than Mattingly...
Mark >>
More popular in the 80s than Mattingly? How about Doc Gooden...Roger Clemens (debuted in 84, Mattingly played just 7 games in 82, started to play in 83), Clemens did win 2 of his Cy Youngs in the 80s (and an MVP)...you mention Boggs, who was as highly regarded as Mattingly and played in nearly a big a market as Mattingly did.
Mattingly had a fine career...but to say he was the most popular player in the 80s? That's a bit of a stretch (well more than a bit).
<< <i>
<< <i>
name me a more popular player in the '80s than the 'Hit Man'. He was in baseball's biggest market and he had a HUGE following. Numbers are great for the HOF and Mattingly had great, great numbers for a few years, but let's not forget a player's popularity in determining a RC's value. There are many players from the 80's that will make, or already have made the Hall on the first ballot, Gwynn, Boggs, Brett, Yount, Murray, etc. But, besides some regional popularity, name me a player that had more nationwide appeal than Mattingly...
Mark >>
More popular in the 80s than Mattingly? How about Doc Gooden...Roger Clemens (debuted in 84, Mattingly played just 7 games in 82, started to play in 83), Clemens did win 2 of his Cy Youngs in the 80s (and an MVP)...you mention Boggs, who was as highly regarded as Mattingly and played in nearly a big a market as Mattingly did.
Mattingly had a fine career...but to say he was the most popular player in the 80s? That's a bit of a stretch (well more than a bit). >>
Axtell, you should know that of all baseball teams, the Yankees have a following, especially in our hobby like no other team.
Mattingly may not have been the most popular player nationally in the '80s, but he was the heart and soul of the Yankees in the mid to late '80s. A whole generation of Yankee fans regard Mattingly in the same high regard as older Yankee fans regard Mantle. He played his entire career in New York and if you go to a Yankee game today, you'll see quite a bit of number 23 jerseys in the stands.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
If I had to rank my personal "can't miss" players from the pre 86 80s, I would have to go with... Gooden, Strawberry, and Eric Davis. Late 80s... Canseco, Will Clark, and Bonilla. All hyped to the moon, and just about all fell hard. It STILL kills me how damnn good Gooden was, and he was soooooo young. It still gets me jacked up thinking about it.
GG
<< <i>I'm 30 and I can't relate to any pre-war player stone. I love the hunt most of all, and when I can find a PSA 7 goudey common where there are less than 10 better in existance for a few hundred bucks it brings me more joy than having a new shiney card of a player I can relate to. Contrary to some opinions I simply do not see the number of PSA 7 and higher goudeys increasing significantly because I personally think the high grade stuff raw is drying up. Add to it the likely false high POP reports due to resubmitting and your in scarce territory indeed.
I love the hunt more than the kill, but that is just me. oh yea, i like to preserve my investment too, so mid-high grade pre-war is my bag baby!!!
GG >>
GG, any reason is a great reason to collect. If you can't relate to the players you are collecting than you are collecting for the money, possible re-sale one day. NOTHING WRONG with that
I am collecting a set purely for the reason that each and every card in the monster 1978 set reminds me of a moment from when I was a 9 year old rabid baseball fan. I could care less if the entire set is worth less than my neighbors dogs steaming pile of last nights supper that he left on my front lawn.
So, leave the collector of worthless crap alone!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
GG
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>GG, You tired of hearing about my crusade yet?
I'm not Dan. A friend of mine just bought a new set of golf clubs and renewed his membership - you have to pay 3 grand in front - and the clubs? God knows. With his tournaments, travelling to events, dues, etc., he spends way more a year than I do on cards. ROI? Money? Zero. Enjoyment? He feels like a million bucks!
A hobby should be fun - throw in the ROI and for me...it makes it feel like work.
mike
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i>A hobby should be fun - throw in the ROI and for me...it makes it feel like work. >>
Absolutely! I have enough things to invest in - this is supposed to be entertainment, and for me - it is just that, nothing else.
<< <i>Everyone to their own i guess. Personally, with $1600 to spend I wouldnt touch any modern card. Period.........I would much rather have HOF's than speculate on a player that might get into the Hall. Too many factors against them. Can't miss players sometimes miss...Bo Jackson, Darryle Strawberry ect. Griiffey Jr. looked like a lock for 10-12 years and then the injury bug hit him. For $1600 I would much rather have 3 mid grade T206 HOf's. Ty Cobb PSA 4 red portrait, Cy Young in a PSA 3 and a MAtty in a 3. Out >>
Can't argue with that 2D.
I wouldn't mind pulling an expensive card tho. I think back before Beckett was really big and there was way less instinctive talk about investment - don't get me wrong - I have had the "resale" potential talk back in 1979 when me and a friend were looking at some coins and I was interested in a 56T card.
Back then coins and card sellers could be seen at the same show where I lived. He thought cards had no intrinsic value - like I really cared at the time - but I did understand his point as I do yours.
If a person springs for a 500$ modern card and is worried at all about whether it will be worth more in 5 yrs? Best to call your stockbroker and buy packs and hope to "pull" those cards IMO.
mike
We all figure value when it comes to your computer, groceries, etc. I don't know why you make that comparison between everyday living expenses and a hobby. To me, the guy who obsesses about value, re-sale, etc probably can't afford what he is buying.
Dan
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i> I don't know why you make that comparison between everyday living expenses and a hobby. To me, the guy who obsesses about value, re-sale, etc probably can't afford what he is buying. >>
Dan
I don't think Steve meant it that way. In the world of selling things - whether it be food, cars, cards, or going to the dentist....people have a perception of whether they received "value" for their money.
That's the way I read it.
Steve
As I said before - the lesson learned - as you have so well expressed - is that this "stuff" we are talking about would be better discussed without thinking of ROI or even bail out money. There's no resale on tons of hobbies - albeit active like golf, bowling or rock climbing - perhaps the attitude should be to think of collectibles in the same way one would an active hobby like golf and not look at anything in return at the end of the day? Except a dividend of pleasure.
Just a thought
mike
just my opinon...because I Just Love Cards...
Link To Scanned 1952 Topps Cards Set is now 90% Complete Plus Slideshows of the 52 Set
<< <i>We all figure value when it comes to your computer, groceries, etc. I don't know why you make that comparison between everyday living expenses and a hobby. To me, the guy who obsesses about value, re-sale, etc probably can't afford what he is buying. >>
You know, this is a perfect statement. As Mike mentioned earlier, how many of us spend money on hobbies / activities with no thought of getting anything back other than participating in the hobby itself? Golf, sports cars, gym memberships, you name it - you spend your money, have your fun, and that's enough. If you are buying sports cards and worried about getting your money back someday, you are definitely spending money you shouldn't.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i>softy, because it's a mindset on managing your money as best as possible. >>
I agree completely with this. I don't care what happens to the value and re-sale of my 78's but its not like I am running around spending $50 per PSA 9 high pop common. I always try and get my cards for a good price. The difference I guess is once the card is in my set I will forever not care what happens to its value good or bad. These cards will more than likely end up in my sons or my sons childrens hands one day. If I was a 9 year old kid in 1987 I would be collecting them and still not caring about future value. These cards hold much more meaning than a price tag. All of the unopened I have bought is money wasted if that is a concern. But I had and still am having a blast with them. This goes back to what Mike said about hobbies that you never get your money back for, BUT you have tons of fun doing them. Skiing, golf, boating, whatever.
Dan
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
It's healthy to discuss this and there's absolutely nothing wrong with collecting with an aim to sell down the road and make some money. Those with different goals can coexist very nicely here at CU.
mike
I fully agree that everyone should collect what makes them happy. But, for some of us (or at least me) what makes us happy is buying stuff that we think will appreciate. Like I've said before, to me cards are cards-- I like them all, and no real set stands out as a favorite for me (although if I had to pick one it would probably be '63 Topps hockey). So, I'd just as soon buy stuff that I think will go up, since all other factors are equal.
Also, I agree with Goudeygold-- the safest cards in the world to buy from an investment perspective have to be mid-high grade pre-war. There just isn't any more of this stuff out there. Figure in the 70 odd years that have passed, plus the paper drives, and it's easy to see why these pop reports don't change.
<< <i>One thing to add--
I fully agree that everyone should collect what makes them happy. But, for some of us (or at least me) what makes us happy is buying stuff that we think will appreciate. Like I've said before, to me cards are cards-- I like them all, and no real set stands out as a favorite for me (although if I had to pick one it would probably be '63 Topps hockey). So, I'd just as soon buy stuff that I think will go up, since all other factors are equal.
Also, I agree with Goudeygold-- the safest cards in the world to buy from an investment perspective have to be mid-high grade pre-war. There just isn't any more of this stuff out there. Figure in the 70 odd years that have passed, plus the paper drives, and it's easy to see why these pop reports don't change. >>
Boo
You got it! Back in 1989 David Festberg told me at a show to consider pre-war (one of his specialties) along with whatever you collect - it will be hotter than hell down the road - he was totally correct. He was talking about collectibility - but it totally translates into an appreciated area.
mike
Also, from an investment perspective I would think RC's of high profile non baseball HOF's would be safe. PSA 8 Jim Brown, PSA 7 Bobby Orr, etc. etc. As with the pre-war, all the high grade stuff from non-baseball issues has been slabbed. With baseball it's tricker, since there are probably a fair number of shoeboxes still floating around out there (along with some very nice ungraded collections). But with the lower profile sports, with the lower print runs, I think a guy would likely be safe.
But, I can't argue with what you are saying. But, the amount of "good" stuff out there to include ebay is a matter of being selective - as Fabfrank had mentioned - pick your vendors.
I like T3s - it's getting harder to buy now since the popularity is peaking right now - but I was able to buy this card from Gaynor auctions - Raw - for about 500$ - this year - the way the market is right now - with the card coming back a 6 - you are looking at probably a grand or more!
And about the shoeboxes - you are correct, they are out there - more than anyone would think - I am loaded with "dealer lots" in nmmt, nmt, exmt, ex of many years that I bought for very good prices back in the 1989-91 era. You can't get them reasonable anymore.
mike
Let me first say that I am not one that "frets over ROI" even though I do use that as a measure for buying and selling. Maybe I pay more attention to this than others because I, in the past, spent thousands of dollars on stuff I should not have. One can argue that I should not have attempted to buy anything if I couldn't afford to throw money at them. I understand the point but I disagree with perception that one should attempt this hobby as a visitor to Las Vegas - spending money knowing that you will lose it all but it's worth the fun. I really don't think that very many people approach this hobby in that same manner. To continue with the more active hobbies that were mentioned, that would be like buying golf clubs or skiis/boots/etc. and never using them. Could there be a parallel between an active golfer and a passive card hobbyist? Sure, I understand the return on fun. While there are other things I can do with my hobby money (I have had other hobbies and even side businesses in the past), the time that I spend (which I consider valuable), is worth it to me. Just like our passive brethrens in coins and stamps, we do look for value and try not to waste money. I understand the justification of seeing your collection tanking in value and chalking it up for fun (which is how I view nearly everything I did in the 1980s), we still by nature learn from that - as we do in everything that we purchase.
I don't know if "looking to sell in the future" forbid me from being a hobbyist. My wife and I are anticipating a major lifestyle change sometime in the future and if so, cards will not be a part of that. But I question whether me looking for high-end PSA 6 for my 1957 set - knowing that they will retain their value better - makes me a "speculator/dealer". I think it makes me a smart hobbyist. Besides, they are much nicer looking cards (because of centering) to display and to have in my collection - and that makes me more of a "purist".
In the end, we are all coming from the same place and argue semantics. I have seen the value of all of my 1970s sets go down and remember back to the joy I had in completing them. Now my joy is on a different level in that I can still build sets like I did in the old days but because of grading, I can be smarter at it.
Good points! I think there is a semantic thing going on here to a degree.
<< <i>hobby: NOUN: An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure. >>
In this case the operative word is "primarily." We can either "trade" within our hobby or exchange money to purchase or upgrade our collectibles. This has been going on forever. So everyone is correct - there's no such thing as a hobby without some kind of "business" aspects attached.
After that, this will just be a repetitive debate and the best we can do is either "agree to disagree" or
(which I like better) - celebrate the differences in the hobbyists at CU - the collector and collector/investors can coexist very nicely.
What do ya think?
mike