ALTERED VINTAGE CARDS

JC80

Can altered vintage cards get pass grading companys such as PSA GAI SGC? Somtimes I wonder about those high graded vintage cards that are graded higher than a six. There has to be some way to tell if the cards have been altered. There is alot of talk going around that some altered cards do get pass PSA GAI SGC. These card doctors must be really good at what they do. For all we know the card doctors could be the graders or the big card dealers. Someone please give me your thoughts about this.

mudflap02

Bighurt in 3, 2 , 1..............

goudeygold

I've heard more than one person say they would never touch any pre war card graded a 9, some even say an 8. Not saying they aren't legit, god knows I want one, but...

also there was some discussion recently about the famous PSA 8 wagner being trimmed. anybody got some input on that one?

GG

baseballfanatic

The McNall/Gretzky Wagner has always carried the label of being trimmed. Bad way for PSA to start out (being the first card graded), but I think the standards have tightened a bit since then....

Boopotts

Yes, it does happen. But the problem isn't nearly as pervasive as some collectors think.

julen23

Trying to sneak altered cards past credible grading companies is like trying to bring marijuana onto an airplane. Conversly speaking, there are grading companies out there that readily grade altered, trimmed cards that make it onto e-bay and onto our discussions, where we basically diss them a lot.

Julen
_________
Collecting:
1980 Topps: Over 4,000 cards from vending and wax boxes awaiting a giant bonfire
1969 Topps Master: # 1 1
1987 Kraft Dinners Home Plate Heroes

WinPitcher

This really your first post here?

Stone193

<< <i>Can altered vintage cards get pass grading companys such as PSA GAI SGC? Somtimes I wonder about those high graded vintage cards that are graded higher than a six. There has to be some way to tell if the cards have been altered. There is alot of talk going around that some altered cards do get pass PSA GAI SGC. These card doctors must be really good at what they do. For all we know the card doctors could be the graders or the big card dealers. Someone please give me your thoughts about this. >>


JC
Welcome to the boards!

I was just wondering why you left Beckett grading off the list?

mike

goudeygold

Who takes marijuana on a plane? I thought that was what fed-ex was for...



GG

kuntryboy

<< <i>Trying to sneak altered cards past credible grading companies is like trying to bring marijuana onto an airplane. >>



Ridiculous analogy.

onlychild

I'm sure some cards may get past, there is always that possibility. We are dealing with a human factor on both the doctoring and the grading. Third party authentication makes it just that much more difficult. I would only stick with GAI, PSA & SGC.

As for not touching any prewar 9 card. Why not? I have prewar 9 and a 9.5. Both are very legit since I'm the one who set them free .

stevek

PSA and SGC - no. Maybe once in a blue moon for reasons that were mentioned. GAI I do believe that some altered cards are being graded there - just my opinion based on a number of scans of GAI cards on ebay that look short.

jrdolan

<< <i>I was just wondering why you left Beckett grading off the list? >>


Good point. Of the 4 major grading services, BGS and especially its ugly sibling BCCG may have the worst rep for letting trimmed and sheet-cut cards into high-grade holders. Which is kind of scary since BGS 9.5's and 10's were selling for unreal prices at one point in the heavily manipulated Beckett market ... and sometimes still are, despite the recent explosion in the population of 9.5's.

SDavid

Unfortunately, card doctors don't generally post on messageboards. They're the only ones who know how difficult it is.

There have been posts in the past where people have said they resubmitted psa and sgc cards and had them rejected, so it must be less of a science than they want us to believe.

It happens the most with newer cards, though. Those are tougher to spot.

gregm13

From personal experience, I believe it would be very tough for a trimmed card to end up in a PSA holder. I have sent in a total of 7 cards (on three separate submissions over the past two years) that I have cracked from PRO and GEM holders. All 7 have been rejected for evd of trimming. Needless to say, I have learned my lesson but the fact remains that all 7 were sent in raw and were rejected. PSA is batting 100% in my book.

Regards,

Greg M.

Bkritz

If anyone wants a few trimmed 52 topps that somebody along the way made into nm-mt cards, I have 6 of them from the semi-high series. I don't think even pro would grade them. They still have white borders around the picture but are trimmed, no question about it.

I have 308 Aloma, 306 Sleater, 305 Richards, 301 Porterfield, 290 Astroth and 262 Trucks.

$10 delivered. There are no cheaper 52 topps than this.

PM to get em.

B

envoy98

Trimmed, rebuilt and recolored cards do end up in holders. Every companies holders. Certainly there are some better at catching it than others, PSA tends to err on the side of caution sometimes, as I've had cards from my stepdads collection come back as recolored. However I've spent time talking with dealers at different shows, and had beers with some of these same dealers and I've heard things I didn't know were even possible.

It is not prevalent, as I would feel confident in saying 99% of the cards in PSA holders are legit, however, don't think for a second that there aren't altered cards in there holders. There are.

BGS is getting a bad rap because of the sheet cut cards. They are great at spotting counterfeits and informing the general public on how to do the same, which I appreciate. It's saved me money on more than one fake Gretzky and Jordan rc.

But go take a look at cert numbers for any BGS 10 on ebay, then look at 10-15 cert #'s before, and after it. Tell me how many have a final grade of 0.0. I'll bet it's a large percentage, the theory is then that every card in that submission was probably altered in some way, shape or form. We've seen the exact same thing with PSA submissions... a stack of cards rejected for "Altered or Evid. Of Trim" and then a bunch interspersed in there that are graded 7..8..9..10. It's going to happen.

There is a human factor to this, and with the laser trimmers some people have access to and the allowances companies like BGS give on card size (+/- 1/32") a guy can clean up all 4 edges and have the edge color consistent all the way around and get that money grabbing "Pristine 10" grade. There are a handful of dealers on ebay I just flat out avoid because I believe they take part in this practice.

Once again, buy the card, not the holder. I feel far more confident buying a holdered card from one of the big 4 than I do buying a raw card, even in person a lot of times...

Just my .02

Now where's DBH?

JC80

I forgot about Beckett. PSA GAI SGC are the biggest grading companys.

Ruthfan

Stevek, you amaze me on how you can come out and say that GAI grades altered cards just because you saw some SCANS of some cards that LOOKED short to you. You must be the same guy that started that grading company that grades by a scan of the card rather than the card itself.

bowdowntome

The problem I see with this is that the card doctors, counterfeiters, and fraudsters, will always have the upper hand. They will always be looking for ways to refine their techniques, using newer and newer technology. It's the card graders job to spot these new techniques, but if they don't know what the NEXT new technique is going to be, who knows how long it will be before the catch on? Cards could very well get by undetected until the graders catch up. It's like the virus software companies. They can't come up with a fix for a new virus until the new virus is already out there, and most probably infecting computers. It's impossible to ask the grading companies to be ahead of the game, all they can do is adapt as quickly as possible.

Stone193

<< <i>The problem I see with this is that the card doctors, counterfeiters, and fraudsters, will always have the upper hand. >>


Can't we get these guys for practicing without a license?

And if the card is bought raw and doesn't get graded...can't we sue them for malpractice?