Second chance offer
stown
Posts: 11,321 ✭✭✭
Last night, I made an offer on this Berra.
The high bidder backed out and the Seller came to me with a BIN at $130.00 (which was my highest bid). I came back to him offering $114, which was $3 higher than the next highest bid. He declined and relisted it.
My question is, in theory, shouldn't he have accepted my offer?
The high bidder backed out and the Seller came to me with a BIN at $130.00 (which was my highest bid). I came back to him offering $114, which was $3 higher than the next highest bid. He declined and relisted it.
My question is, in theory, shouldn't he have accepted my offer?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
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HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
basketball 69/70-75/76, baseball 1974
ExMt or better, lot of trading material.
Place your bid on the re-list at $114, you can always go to $130 again.
As for his theory--- If the top bidder bailed out at $132 . The next lower bid was $111 and adding the next bid amount would make it $113.50 with stown as the top bidder. This is what the offer should have been from the seller. Seller was trying to make an extra $17 on the deal.
<< <i>As for his theory--- If the top bidder bailed out at $132 . The next lower bid was $111 and adding the next bid amount would make it $113.50 with stown as the top bidder. This is what the offer should have been from the seller. Seller was trying to make an extra $17 on the deal. >>
I agree. If the top bidder bailed on completing the sale, the second bidder shouldn't have to pay their max amount. That's too similar to shill bidding (even if the top bidder was a "legitimate" deadbeat bidder).
Actually, in theory, you should have accepted his offer to sell you the card at $130. You don't have to, obviously, but if that was what you wanted to bid (which you did), you should have taken the card. Countering at a lower price seems "wishy washy".
As for shill bidding, it doesn't seem this was the case. The auction ended at 17:00. The hi bid was placed at 14:15:22.
Stowns bid was placed at 16:59:54, 6 seconds before the auction ended. Probably through a snipe service. Stowns bid is what pushed the price up. Amq111 would have won the card $114.
Wouldn't it be ironic if the hi bidder reneged on the deal because he thought Stown shill bid him
Call it wish washy if you want.. But had amq111 not bid, I would have gotten the card for $114.
How? His bid was ahead of yours by 2 hours. Your bid was the one that pushed the price up in the last 6 seconds.
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
IF "amq111" had never bid on this card, then the maximum bid with 7 seconds left would have been "Clipper-baseball" s $111.11.
When stown placed his $130 snipe with 6 seconds left, the final price would have ended at $113.61.
<< <i>I was wondering who was bidding that baby up over SMR. It's unusual for this type of card in a 5. >>
It's one that I need for my '55 set. I haven't bought anything in the past 30 days, so figured it was worth paying a little extra.
Edited to add - The reason I didn't accept his offer @ $130 is based upon principals. Had he accepted my offer of $114, I would have paid via paypal immediately (and informed him of such). The more I think about it and based upon y'alls comments, I think he did shill it. No negative FB, came back to me with a 2nd chance offer within 12 hours after the auction, and wouldn't accept what would have been the next highest offer. Would rather spend my money with someone else, unless he comes back to me some time this weekend at the $114.
Can't be. amq111 had to be the hi bid prior to stown bidding. his bid placed at 14:55:22 is more than 2 hours before stowns bid at 16:59:54
amq111's top end was probably higher. Let's say $175.
If the auction ends without stowns bid, amq111 wins the auction at $114, since it was placed before stowns bid but after clipper-baseball (who placed his bid at 8:45:51), approximately 6 hours prior.
That's why when stown bids, with 6 seconds left in the auction, the bid rises to $132.50. Stown loses since amq111 bid before him, and obviously had a higher top bid.
Stown would not have won the card unless his bid was higher than the top side bid (in this example $175), that amq11 already had placed.
Either way, he made an offer and you declined. You made an offer and he declined. Thats the way it goes. Nobody HAS to accept either offer.
<< <i>Im not sure, but can anyone answer if ebay gives you a choice of what your second chance offer is, or is it prescribed by them through their procedures? >>
He sent me a link via ebay. It took me to a page with a "Buy it Now" option. I've seached his listings and cannot find the card any other way than through the link he provided.
<< <i>Either way, he made an offer and you declined. You made an offer and he declined. Thats the way it goes. Nobody HAS to accept either offer. >>
Exactly... I was only asking for suggestions and thoughts from this fine community
But, Im guessing if it was agreed to sell it at a lower price, ebay would never know about it and you wouldnt have to pay the fee for the sale. It would be an off-ebay transaction.
....
Subject: THE INFAMOUS 1955 YOGI BERRA DEBATE- THE TRUE E! HOLLYWOOD STORY
HELLO, SINCE EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION ON THE REASON I OFFERED THIS TO YOU VIA SECOND CHANCE. HERE IS THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS THAT LED TO THE SECOND CHANCE OFFERING. FIRST PRIOR TO THE AUCTIONS CLOSING WE RECEIVED THIS EMAIL
Dear cardmrchnt6ta4,
WHY ONLY A 5?? THERE HAS GOT TO BE A CREASE? WRINKLE? STAIN?
Please respond to the question on eBay by clicking the button below. You'll have the option to display your response directly on the listing.
Item # Item Title Listing end date
5207114561 1955 TOPPS YOGI BERRA #198 PSA 5 EX - HIGH END! Jun-16-05
OUR REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WAS.
THE SURFACE ON THE BERRA IS VERY NICE. TWO OF THE CORNERS HAVE SLIGHT BENDS, THE OTHER 2 HAVE SLIGHT WEAR. THANKS
THIS MORNING WE RECEIVED THE FOLLOWING EMAIL AFTER THE AUCTIONS HAD CLOSED.
Dear cardmrchnt6ta4,
JUST GOT YOUR EMAIL ABOUT THE BENDS! I CAN ONLY BID AT WORK AND I PLACED MY BID WITH OUT GETTING YOUR RESPONSE WHICH I SHOULDN'T HAVE I WILL TAKE THE CARD IF I MUST AS I DON'T WANT A RENEG TO GIVBE ME NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, I DO WANT THE 66 AARON SGC 84 BUT I REALLY NEED A 55 BERRA CREASE FREE, IF IT DOESN'T UPSET YOU I WOULD ASK IF YOU WOULD OFFER THE STOWNBHFP OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT A SECOND CHANCE OFFER WHO WAS THE SECOND HIGHEST BIDDER AT $130 AND I WILL ADD THE $2.50 LOST AMOUNT ON THE PRICE OF THE AARON 1966 SGC 7 SO YOU DON'T LOOSE ANY MONEY. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS DOABLE, THANKS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION AND SORY FOR ANY TROUBLE, IF IM STUCK WITH IT LET ME KNOW THIS TOO, THANKS ANDREW
AT THIS TIME WE OFFERED YOU A SECOND CHANCE OFFER.
YOU COULD HAVE JUST ASKED ME WHY WE WERE OFFERING YOU THE ITEM SECOND CHANCE. THANKS.
......
Has anyone been emailing the Seller or could he (or a buddy) be a member of these boards? I'm not going to respond... He had his chance and blew it.
EDITED to add: Isn't it ironic that the Buyer and Seller BOTH TYPE IN ALL CAPS??!?!
I smell something fishy and it ain't coming from my date tonight
I see your point on the principal, but your beef would be with the high bidder and not the seller. He didn't do you any wrong. From the seller's perspective, if two people bid $130 on it (even though one backed out), why would he settle for less?
I doubt any shilling was involved. The seller is very reputable, and that's a cheap card compared to other stuff he sells. If he was going to shill, it would be on higher dollar stuff.
You have a current high bid of $100 with a max bid of $150. A shill/reneger/whatever comes along, pushes it up to $152.50, and then backs out. Based upon the argument, you should pay the $150 (even though you are not technically obligated to). In theory because the high bidder's bids should not be a part of the process due to non-payment, you should only pay $100 but according to others' arguments and ebay's rules, you should pay $150.
Since I'm not obligated per ebay's policies and based upon my principals, I'm sticking with my guns and not paying the $130. I'm not trying to back out of anything what-so-ever. Don't get me wrong, if Ebay said I "had" to pay the $130, I would this second.
Brian
....
Hi,
Please note that I only sent you one email offering to purchase the item for $114 and that it would have to be accepted by 3:00 PM CST. You declined and it was the end of, as you put it, "THE TRUE E! HOLLYWOOD STORY" as far as I was concerned. In my honest opinion, you should do one of two things:
1) Sell it to the high bidder
2) Relist the item with an accurate description of the card (ie corner bends and wear) rather than your title of "HIGH END" and "PLEASE SEE SCAN" (since obviously these flaws cannot be seen on the scan you provided).
I do not have any issues with you and wish you the best of luck.
...
Personally, I hope the seller does better than $130 next time around. Just my 2 cents.
edited to add: the bid history means everything. one can't assume that a snipe didn't go through.
IMO, you have to throw out the bid that is a reneg, doesn't count, back out, etc.
And if you throw out the bid that wasn't honored, a price of a $1 more than the next highest is more than fair. It wouldn't matter to me if Stown bid $1000 to make sure he won the auction, it's not a fair market value of the card if you even consider the bid that fell through.
I wouldn't pay more than $114.
Shawn
<< <i>I guess I must be missing the big picture here and need to re-read this thread.
IMO, you have to throw out the bid that is a reneg, doesn't count, back out, etc.
And if you throw out the bid that wasn't honored, a price of a $1 more than the next highest is more than fair. It wouldn't matter to me if Stown bid $1000 to make sure he won the auction, it's not a fair market value of the card if you even consider the bid that fell through.
I wouldn't pay more than $114.
Shawn >>
But like many are saying, the problem with that logic is that someone may have sniped for an amount lesser than 130 at last second - the bid history wouldn't reflect that and it would be impossible to know if that's the case.
Brian
Don't make fun of me, help me understand this.
Why is it if I would've had a snipe in at $125 would of it not shown up in the bid history?
Wouldn't it have shown up with me as a bid at $125 and I got outbid by the $130 or am I missing something?
I'm trying to figure out the logic but it's been too long of a day for me to think without you spelling it out for me.
Shawn
Brian
Still don't know if you can say $114 wasn't a fair offer. It wasn't a major low ball by any means.
As I seller, I'd probably take it, instead of paying relisting fees, final value fees, my time, etc. in hopes of getting that $125 "phantom" snipe that may or may not have been there.
"Ground ball to Furcal, he bobbles it, flips to Giles for one, on to first...NOT in time. The Braves blew a double play, but still get the lead runner. No error on that since you cannot assume a double play"
Moral of the story, you can assume another snipe, but cannot use that as a reason to max the bid to $130.
Stick to your guns. Willing, able, and ready buyers determine the market price. Your bid was artificially raised by a buyer who, apparantly, was not willing, able, and ready. There is nothing unfair about going back to your bid before the defaulting bidder. If the seller doesn't like that, let him list it again. You may still be the only W, A and R buyer to go up to $ 114. Hoo haa!!
Loser #1 = amq111 for not honoring his bid. Questions need to be asked before placing a bid. This little girl belongs on every seller's blocked list.
Loser #2 = stown for going on a public message board and unjustly accusing the seller of fraud.
The seller did nothing wrong. He just wants the $132.50 that he is entitled to. The only way that stown should be able to get the card for $114.00 is if amq111 agrees to send the seller the difference of $18.50. There's no reason why the seller should have to take a loss because of amq111's irresponsible behavior.
If I was the seller I would just forget about these two clowns (amq111 and stown) and relist the card. I'd also block both of them from bidding in the future.
<< <i>Loser #2 = stown for going on a public message board and unjustly accusing the seller of fraud. >>
Please show me where I accused the Seller of fraud. If for some reason I may have implied that, it was not my intention. Per my email to the seller:
<< <i>I do not have any issues with you and wish you the best of luck. >>
I only said it was unusual for a Seller to offer a BIN less than 12 hours after an auction and for a Buyer and Seller to email each other both USING ALL CAPS. I did state that perhaps it was shilling based upon the circumstances, but never said it was to be fact.
You may want to read the ENTIRE thread prior to making accusations.
The best solution is for the second bidder to offer the next increment above the third bidder's high bid. If the seller is not satisfied, he/she should relist.
<< <i>The seller did nothing wrong. He just wants the $132.50 that he is entitled to. The only way that stown should be able to get the card for $114.00 is if amq111 agrees to send the seller the difference of $18.50. There's no reason why the seller should have to take a loss because of amq111's irresponsible behavior. >>
After re-reading this, I had to comment. What you fail to realize is that I made an offer at $114, the Seller declined, and we both went along our merry ways. I hope he sells it for $150 next time; however, I also hope that he more accurately describes the item. He posted in the title "HIGH END" and "SEE SCAN", yet did not metion the bent and worn corners that are unable to be seen on the scan provided.
<< <i>If I was the seller I would just forget about these two clowns (amq111 and stown) and relist the card. I'd also block both of them from bidding in the future. >>
Oh please.... As I stated earlier:
<< <i>Don't get me wrong, if Ebay said I "had" to pay the $130, I would this second. >>
I have 100% feedback and always pay within minutes of the auction ending with paypal (if accepted). Why don't you look at what you are shoveling.
As you can see, I am attempting to be civil even though I consumed mass quanities of wine and black/waters. Why don't you try the same.
Regardless of how you now want to try to spin it, the majority of the people reading this thread will get the impression that you feel that cardmerchant committed a fraudulent act. That's what it all comes down to. The seller's reputation was damaged due to your irresponsible and unjust comments.
<< <i>The best solution is for the second bidder to offer the next increment above the third bidder's high bid. If the seller is not satisfied, he/she should relist. >>
I disagree. The best solution is for the high bidder (amq111) to honor his bid and pay for the item.
<< <i>stown
Regardless of how you now want to try to spin it, the majority of the people reading this thread will get the impression that you feel that cardmerchant committed a fraudulent act. That's what it all comes down to. The seller's reputation was damaged due to your irresponsible and unjust comments. >>
Go ahead and show me where I implied or made an impression of fraud. There's only 2 pages of posts and I probably made 6 max, so it shouldn't be too hard to give me some quotes.
Good luck and hace a nice day.
Edit - Sorry, make that 3 pages but since you are accusing me of accusing someone of fraud, I think you should give me some quotes.
<< <i>In my honest opinion, you should do one of two things:
1) Sell it to the high bidder
2) Relist the item with an accurate description of the card (ie corner bends and wear) rather than your title of "HIGH END" and "PLEASE SEE SCAN" (since obviously these flaws cannot be seen on the scan you provided). >>
His description was accurate. That card is "HIGH END" for a 5. It has near perfect centering, reasonably square corners, good color, no toning, no print marks, and a very clean overall appearance.
- The loser is the original high bidder. He backed out of the deal plain and simple. Bad form.
- The seller made an offer to the buyer, the buyer turned it down. Life goes on. The buyer thought it was worth less than his max bid, made an offer to the seller, the seller turned it down. Again, thats the way it goes and life goes on. The only factual determination of a fair price is one that is agreed to by the buyer and the seller.
- I can almost guarantee that there was no shilling involved with this seller based both on past dealings and due to the amount of the card in this case. The risk of being caught would not be worth the extra $20 to be made.
- I would have not posted this on the boards either and would recommend trying to work things out privately with the other party before publishing a private beef on the boards.
My two cents.
<< <i>
Go ahead and show me where I implied or made an impression of fraud. There's only 2 pages of posts and I probably made 6 max, so it shouldn't be too hard to give me some quotes. >>
from an earlier post :
<< <i>"EDITED to add: Isn't it ironic that the Buyer and Seller BOTH TYPE IN ALL CAPS??!?!
I smell something fishy and it ain't coming from my date tonight " >>
<< <i>- I can almost guarantee that there was no shilling involved with this seller based both on past dealings and due to the amount of the card in this case. The risk of being caught would not be worth the extra $20 to be made.
- I would have not posted this on the boards either and would recommend trying to work things out privately with the other party before publishing a private beef on the boards. >>
You are correct but the purpose of this thread was, in theory, if I should have had an opportunity to purchase the card at the $114, which would have been the next highest bid, rather than the $130. I made an offer to the Seller, he rejected it, and it was over as far as I was concerned. The Seller then came back to me with an email titled the TRUE E! HOLLYWOOD STORY.. Yes, I did find it ironic that both the Seller and Buyer both typed in all caps; it was an observation. As pandrews shows above, I did state that something was fishy about that email. There have been clams/conspiracies/fraud accusations much more worse on this forum that what I thought was fishy. I shouldn't have used the term fishy and had left it as an ironic observation.
I have a feeling that several members/lurkers emailed the Seller asking what was going on and this caused him to send me the email. I responded with my suggestions, let him KNOW that I had no problems with him, and wished him the best of luck.
Several members here have done business with the Seller in the past and vouched for him. Additionally, someone else showed that the only way you can make a second chance offer via ebay was for the next highest bidder's max bid. While I and several others do not agree with said policy, it is what it is. If I was required by Ebay to pay the $130, I would have and it be a dead issue. However having said that, had the Seller posted an accurate description of the item with bent and worn corners rather than high end, the original high bidder would have never bid on the item.
To make a long story short, this thread went on a tangent from what the intended purpose was. I do not have any problem with the Seller, do not believe the item was shilled, and he did nothing wrong with the second chance offer.
So what have we learned today? If someone beats your bid and backs out, you may have an opportunity to purchase the item with a second chance offer at your max bid. That is Ebay's policy and it is what it is.