I just contacted AmEx, they said that I cannot dispute the charge until it actually appears on the statement which it has not yet. I asked them, if I have a problem with the merchandise or it is not what I expected then I can send the item back to the vendor with proof of mailing and a return receipt. If i'm not credited back by the vendor I can then dispute the charge. So, at this point, the seller hasn't responded to my first email, and now I sent him this email:
Hi Dan,
I believe you received my email regarding my concerns about this card getting it crossover graded with PSA as stated in your Auction. Do you not have any comment? Maybe you knew that this card would be rejected by PSA and that's the reason you never got it graded by PSA? Or perhaps you already submitted to PSA and it was rejected as trimmed?
Since you didn't reply, I'm thinking the worst. I think in order to avoid any further troubles, I hope you'll be willing to accept the return of the card and provide me with a refund.
Kenley
Argh!! I'm never going to buy or bid on anything other than graded PSA cards. But what kind of gets me is that the guy who did the experiment with PSA, he actually had an already graded PSA card that he opened and sent to PSA, then they sent it back to him as 'trimmed'?! Is PSA trim crazy, meaning they think everything is trimmed, I mean there could be miscuts or misalignment with the cutting machines right?
PSa does reject some cards as trimmed when they aren't in my opinion. HOWEVER, PRO is widely known to slab anything.
Your fine with PSA, SGC, and GAI in that order as far as trimming goes. Noone is perfect, but you should stick with the big three especially whan your spending a grand.
I think it will work out for you. Make sure you get return signature receipt. Also make sure you get everything AMEX requires to be on your side in the refund battle. WAIT!!!!! Can't you simply block the charge through amex? he will get back to you about your credit card rejection, then take the neg and learn a lesson for free!!!
I already asked and I cannot block the charge, as it already been authorized. I was thinking I should go ahead and send it to PSA in the holder, and if it is rejected, then I will send the card back for a refund because I did buy it on the premise of getting it crossed over to PSA as stated in his auction. I don't mind paying the fees to have PSA look it over, and wouldn't it be great if they didn't find any evidence of tampering and were able to slab it in a PSA holder? Is this wishful thinking on my part? I'm in California, PSA would get the card the next day, they have a 2 day turnaround on this card, and I could find out if it was accepted or rejected (yes, it will cost me $35 + $16.60 shipping), but at least I will know for sure and then dispute the 1100 with AmEx if the dealer doesn't give me a refund. What do you think?
Experiment: Doesn't this looked like it's trimmed on the top right or bottom right? Would you believe this is a PSA graded card?
<< <i>1bb Have you measured the card? If so, give me the size within 1/32"
mike >>
Mike, I don't have the card yet, and I haven't heard back from the seller after I emailed him twice after I submitted payment. Can you measure it from the two image scans I have listed in this thread from yesterday's posts?
this is another example of a seller using some BS language in an auction in order to get someone to buy. Anyone can say that a given card "can" or "should" or "might be able" to be crossed over from some horrible company to PSA or GAI, BGS, but that doesn't make that true. However, when you are reading the description it's easy to get excited and think you are getting a good deal on a card. I wonder if that happened in this case.
Running an Ebay store sure takes a lot more time than a person would think!
<< <i>this is another example of a seller using some BS language in an auction in order to get someone to buy. Anyone can say that a given card "can" or "should" or "might be able" to be crossed over from some horrible company to PSA or GAI, BGS, but that doesn't make that true. However, when you are reading the description it's easy to get excited and think you are getting a good deal on a card. I wonder if that happened in this case. >>
Yes, it did happen. He had a BIN for 1300 and a Submit Best Offer. I used SMR to formulate my offer, which by the way is $1150 for PSA 7, so I was hopefully expecting to get it crossed to a PSA 7. It truely is a buyer beware issue, I'm to blame and so I guess I didn't use proper judgement and I also didn't realize that PRO cards were usually trimmed until after the fact. His auction does make it sound like this card could be crossed over to PSA, and that's also why I made the offer. I just wish the guy would respond to my emails, that makes me believe he's hidding something.
<< <i>I was thinking I should go ahead and send it to PSA in the holder, and if it is rejected, then I will send the card back for a refund because I did buy it on the premise of getting it crossed over to PSA as stated in his auction. >>
Don't waste your time. Too much time will pass here, anyway - and that alone might hurt your claim. Send it right back, and be persistent in your refund request. Amex is a great ally in this, btw.
I agree. There is zero chance that anyone would send a genuine, untrimmed Aaron rookie to PRO for grading, even if PRO was free.
But I don't understand why you paid $50 less than SMR hoping to cross it to PSA 7. Even if it crossed, after the grading fee and shipping you'd save only $25 over buying a PSA 7 to start with. In an eBay auction, under the right conditions, you might even get the real thing for LESS than you paid for the fake.
This seller never expected anyone to bite at this price level. These fake / trimmed Aaron rookies sell for a few hundred bucks in a PRO holder, if the seller is very lucky. This guy hit the jackpot on a 1,000-1 shot, so he's not giving your money back willingly. Thankfully you used a credit card and this valuable lesson won't cost you. Contest the charge the very first moment you are allowed to!
Man.....I can not believe this but that card is the exact one that I ask some people here about in the vintage section just recently. Just prior to Mem wknd I think. You can check the vintage board under 54' aaron or PRO grading. Specifically the PRO grading and they helped me out or guided me smartly around this PRO thing. I never submitted a bid/offer. The fellow "Dan" that you refer to replied to me after I expressed concern about the PRO grading saying that "I had changed his way of thinking.....actually reversing his thoughts about selling and has decided to keep it". He told me he would keep an eye out for another Aaron for me in a PSA 5-7 and get back with me later. Well tonight I check my email and he contacted me monday 06/06 with info that he had sold the 54' for 1125. He said "he had spent alot of money this wknd on a PSA 10 Bill Mazeroski. 14k to be exact. He said he would know by Saturday what he has in his pipeline for a 54' Aaron PSA 5-7. Also, I forgot to mention earlier.....when I hesitated about the PRO grading he also told me how much he spent in a month on cards. 30k. Why he volunteered that I don't know? Trying to impress? I wasn't. I have communicated with him a few times He seems like a nice guy and didn't get pissed when I told him I was a bit concerned about the PRO thing. I wouldn't have lost sleep if he had but the guy may not know it is fake or trimmed or whatever....then again he might? I am sympathetic towards your situation. I have been looking for a 54' Aaron myself for some time. When I first saw that sucker I thought that was it.............until I ask these guys here and they told me enough about PRO that my antennae went up. I know this doesn't help you feel any better but I only wanted to let you know that you aren't the only one that looked hard at that card. Oh...did I mention I am new at the grading thing? School books are expensive......regardless where the class is held. Best of luck. The guy seemed reasonable......try him out. I would just tell him you made a mistake. Take the neg and move on. He really seemed to be easy going but who knows? Of course he has to pay the 14k for the Mazeroski card. I would be happy to forward any of the correspondance I have had with icloseforyou123/Dan......if you need it. Just give me a shout. BTW.......there seems to be some very good people on these forums that seem to be willing to keep the integrity of collecting intact that know their stuff. They are quite knowledgeable. Hey, if the guy does spend 30k a month...1125 isn't $#!% and he wouldn't sweat it. Hope this helps some and best of luck.
I forgot to add....Amex will be your friend here but I would think they will require you to document the claims....trimmed/altered/counterfeit, etc. That should be simple enough. Might want to start thinking about that angle if need be.
lost, OK we all agree it's either fake or trimmed. Here's why it's fake:
- The color is way too bright- a 1954 card that looks that new is not going to need trimming. Either it's pack fresh or fake. Look at Knuckles' comparison.
- Not one of the edges is rough in the slightest- It would be impossible to trim more than one edge and have it fit that nicely in the holder, and the 54's are known for multiple rough edges on most cards.
<< <i> the guy may not know it is fake or trimmed or whatever....then again he might? >>
He spends $30K a month on cards, including high-end PSA, but may not know this one is fake or trimmed? He submitted it to PRO instead of PSA because he wanted to save a couple bucks on grading?
It's beyond belief. He may have been a victim initially on this card, but he knows exactly what he's doing now.
<< <i>lost, OK we all agree it's either fake or trimmed. Here's why it's fake:
- The color is way too bright- a 1954 card that looks that new is not going to need trimming. Either it's pack fresh or fake. Look at Knuckles' comparison.
- Not one of the edges is rough in the slightest- It would be impossible to trim more than one edge and have it fit that nicely in the holder, and the 54's are known for multiple rough edges on most cards.
I'd bet good money this is fake.
Lee >>
Once again may I state.......there has never been proof given anywhere in these message boards that PRO grades fake cards.........
Collector of:Baseball 1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete - Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
Most of us have made some regretable buying decisions in the early days of collecting. Heck some of us still make a bonehead move every once in a while.
Next time that you see what looks like a perfectly good card and your eyes start to glaze over just before you hit the "Place Bid" button, remember this -
"Stay away from the light, do not go into the light."
lost, Honestly I've never bought a PRO card or even held one in my hand, so I don't know their policies on authentication. I'm just going on what the card looks like.
I'm not sure why they would grade trimmed cards, but not fake ones though. They have to know their reputation in the hobby, so why not take advantage of it and overgrade anything that is sent to them, whether it be trimmed or fake or whatever?
<< <i>lost, Honestly I've never bought a PRO card or even held one in my hand, so I don't know their policies on authentication. I'm just going on what the card looks like.
I'm not sure why they would grade trimmed cards, but not fake ones though. They have to know their reputation in the hobby, so why not take advantage of it and overgrade anything that is sent to them, whether it be trimmed or fake or whatever?
Lee >>
I don't think PRO would intentionally grade a counterfeit. Some smart lawyers could then make their lives miserable by naming them in some type of fraud case. By grading trimmed cards they can still argue the subjectivity of a trim job and avoid the hassle.
Plus they do serve a purpose. They take trimmed cards out of the raw card market.
btw....I have 2 new emails from this guy. Because I had expressed interest in the 54' card he let me know about a PSA 6 he's found for 1275..."a customers price" and a 4 which is "rough for the price". He also stated "the hank aaron buyer is annoying" etc, etc. A very long graphic detail of the transaction. He said he sent emails to "other different address" in response. He was curious why "someone would trim for a 7, why not trim for 9???......etc, etc. "people get so wierd", etc,etc. "I back my stuff up", etc, etc.
I have no dog in this fight but if you want these emails I'll send them to you... just post your email.
The PSA 6 has what appears to be a 54' aaron......the top of the psa holder is cut out of the scan...therefore no number to verify. I'll send this to anyone that wants to have a look. I am not certain how to forward, paste, attach or cut and paste, etc, a scan over to this board from another email so if you want a look give me somewhere to send to.
I got the card on Saturday. I went to a Steven Creek Sports Cards and spoke to Kevin J. who looked at the card. He commented that the card looks really nice, but he also was familiar with Pro Grading sub-standards on grading trimmed cards. He took out a 1954 Topps common and using my $2 machinist's rule that has 32nd and 64th graduations measured the card: 2-20/32nds of an inch wide, and 3-24/32nds high. Then measuring the Aaron it was 2-19/32nds and 3-23/32nds. It was definitely smaller overall and he commented that the card appears to have been laser cut because the edges looked too clean. He stated that PSA would reject this card and would not crossover grade it.
I got a call from Dan Brown (icloseyou123) and he was pissed and said that he feels ripped off because PayPal removed the money from his account and that he was out the card. I asked him why he didn't respond to my emails, and he stated he did a couple of times to my different email address (I don't believe him). I have 3 email addresses I use. The registered eBay email (wrxncrew-2003@yahoo.com) and my PayPal email address (kenley_fritts@yahoo.com), and another one which I don't usually provide but I do check them all multiple times daily. In short, I didn't believe him when I asked him why he didn't send the card to PSA (he gave some excuse about trying to sell the high ticket items). Even if he is telling the truth and he didn't know the card would not crossover to PSA, I don't trust him. I'm sending the card back to him tomorrow insured and proof of receipt requested.
And then it will be back out on eBay. But he won't get $1100 next time. He had a lot of brass, selling a trimmed PRO 7.5 for almost the same price as a PSA 7. Maybe it was the high "Buy It Now" that made it seem more legit.
Well, you learned the same hard lesson that many of us did, but you didn't lose your money. Since the angels are smiling on you, time to buy a lottery ticket!
<< <i>I'm sending the card back to him tomorrow insured and proof of receipt requested. >>
Good for you; glad it worked out. Insured for what? Next thing you know it's lost and you're involved in an insurance fraud. I'd just send it back registered or delivery conf and be done with it.
Mark (amerbbcards)
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
I think I'm going to need a written statement from the dealer on their company letterhead to back up my claim. I will see if I can get that today. Look, at the complaint details, the seller is disputing what I claimed and is true. I'm sure he tried to get the card crossedover at PSA, as his other auction sales were all PSA, a 1957 Willie Mays card was recently sold by him along with other PSA vintage cards. This seller is committing a crime.
PayPal Case ID: PP-087-601-529 Reason for Dispute: Not as Described
Buyer's Comments: I was purchasing the card as an investment. Upon receiving the card and speaking with a PSA (Professional Sports Authenticators) authorized dealer in San Jose to get the card crossover graded, it was found to have been altered from the original state. The card I received cannot be crossover graded by PSA because it has been altered (trimmed) and now the card is worthless. I have sent several emails to the seller and all have gone unanswered. I believe it was his intention to misrepresent the card and commit fraud. If I do not get my money back for this, I will contact my credit card company, American Express and file a dispute. Date of Complaint: Jun. 11, 2005
Status: Reviewing Case
Status Details: We have received a statement from the seller disagreeing with your claim. We are reviewing this case and will contact you if we require additional information or when we reach a decision. No further action is required of you at this time.
Comments
Hi Dan,
I believe you received my email regarding my concerns about this card getting it crossover graded with PSA as stated in your Auction. Do you not have any comment? Maybe you knew that this card would be rejected by PSA and that's the reason you never got it graded by PSA? Or perhaps you already submitted to PSA and it was rejected as trimmed?
Since you didn't reply, I'm thinking the worst. I think in order to avoid any further troubles, I hope you'll be willing to accept the return of the card and provide me with a refund.
Kenley
Argh!! I'm never going to buy or bid on anything other than graded PSA cards. But what kind of gets me is that the guy who did the experiment with PSA, he actually had an already graded PSA card that he opened and sent to PSA, then they sent it back to him as 'trimmed'?! Is PSA trim crazy, meaning they think everything is trimmed, I mean there could be miscuts or misalignment with the cutting machines right?
Your fine with PSA, SGC, and GAI in that order as far as trimming goes. Noone is perfect, but you should stick with the big three especially whan your spending a grand.
I think it will work out for you. Make sure you get return signature receipt. Also make sure you get everything AMEX requires to be on your side in the refund battle. WAIT!!!!! Can't you simply block the charge through amex? he will get back to you about your credit card rejection, then take the neg and learn a lesson for free!!!
GG
Experiment:
Doesn't this looked like it's trimmed on the top right or bottom right? Would you believe this is a PSA graded card?
Have you measured the card? If so, give me the size within 1/32"
mike
<< <i>1bb
Have you measured the card? If so, give me the size within 1/32"
mike >>
Mike,
I don't have the card yet, and I haven't heard back from the seller after I emailed him twice after I submitted payment. Can you measure it from the two image scans I have listed in this thread from yesterday's posts?
Thanks,
Kenley
<< <i>this is another example of a seller using some BS language in an auction in order to get someone to buy. Anyone can say that a given card "can" or "should" or "might be able" to be crossed over from some horrible company to PSA or GAI, BGS, but that doesn't make that true. However, when you are reading the description it's easy to get excited and think you are getting a good deal on a card. I wonder if that happened in this case. >>
Yes, it did happen. He had a BIN for 1300 and a Submit Best Offer. I used SMR to formulate my offer, which by the way is $1150 for PSA 7, so I was hopefully expecting to get it crossed to a PSA 7. It truely is a buyer beware issue, I'm to blame and so I guess I didn't use proper judgement and I also didn't realize that PRO cards were usually trimmed until after the fact. His auction does make it sound like this card could be crossed over to PSA, and that's also why I made the offer. I just wish the guy would respond to my emails, that makes me believe he's hidding something.
<< <i>I was thinking I should go ahead and send it to PSA in the holder, and if it is rejected, then I will send the card back for a refund because I did buy it on the premise of getting it crossed over to PSA as stated in his auction. >>
Don't waste your time. Too much time will pass here, anyway - and that alone might hurt your claim. Send it right back, and be persistent in your refund request. Amex is a great ally in this, btw.
But I don't understand why you paid $50 less than SMR hoping to cross it to PSA 7. Even if it crossed, after the grading fee and shipping you'd save only $25 over buying a PSA 7 to start with. In an eBay auction, under the right conditions, you might even get the real thing for LESS than you paid for the fake.
This seller never expected anyone to bite at this price level. These fake / trimmed Aaron rookies sell for a few hundred bucks in a PRO holder, if the seller is very lucky. This guy hit the jackpot on a 1,000-1 shot, so he's not giving your money back willingly. Thankfully you used a credit card and this valuable lesson won't cost you. Contest the charge the very first moment you are allowed to!
<< <i>It's fake, not trimmed.
Lee >>
DOH!!!.......and you know this how??
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
OK we all agree it's either fake or trimmed. Here's why it's fake:
- The color is way too bright- a 1954 card that looks that new is not going to need trimming. Either it's pack fresh or fake. Look at Knuckles' comparison.
- Not one of the edges is rough in the slightest- It would be impossible to trim more than one edge and have it fit that nicely in the holder, and the 54's are known for multiple rough edges on most cards.
I'd bet good money this is fake.
Lee
<< <i>The color is way too bright >>
Even though I agree it's a bogus card,the color/sharpness can easily be altered in any Photoshop type program.
<< <i> the guy may not know it is fake or trimmed or whatever....then again he might? >>
He spends $30K a month on cards, including high-end PSA, but may not know this one is fake or trimmed? He submitted it to PRO instead of PSA because he wanted to save a couple bucks on grading?
It's beyond belief. He may have been a victim initially on this card, but he knows exactly what he's doing now.
<< <i>lost,
OK we all agree it's either fake or trimmed. Here's why it's fake:
- The color is way too bright- a 1954 card that looks that new is not going to need trimming. Either it's pack fresh or fake. Look at Knuckles' comparison.
- Not one of the edges is rough in the slightest- It would be impossible to trim more than one edge and have it fit that nicely in the holder, and the 54's are known for multiple rough edges on most cards.
I'd bet good money this is fake.
Lee >>
Once again may I state.......there has never been proof given anywhere in these message boards that PRO grades fake cards.........
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
<< <i> I just wish the guy would respond to my emails, that makes me believe he's hidding something. >>
ya think!
bbnerd -
Most of us have made some regretable buying decisions in the early days of collecting. Heck some of us still make a bonehead move every once in a while.
Next time that you see what looks like a perfectly good card and your eyes start to glaze over just before you hit the "Place Bid" button, remember this -
"Stay away from the light, do not go into the light."
Good luck. Hope it all works out for you.
Honestly I've never bought a PRO card or even held one in my hand, so I don't know their policies on authentication. I'm just going on what the card looks like.
I'm not sure why they would grade trimmed cards, but not fake ones though. They have to know their reputation in the hobby, so why not take advantage of it and overgrade anything that is sent to them, whether it be trimmed or fake or whatever?
Lee
<< <i>lost,
Honestly I've never bought a PRO card or even held one in my hand, so I don't know their policies on authentication. I'm just going on what the card looks like.
I'm not sure why they would grade trimmed cards, but not fake ones though. They have to know their reputation in the hobby, so why not take advantage of it and overgrade anything that is sent to them, whether it be trimmed or fake or whatever?
Lee >>
I don't think PRO would intentionally grade a counterfeit. Some smart lawyers could then make their lives miserable by naming them in some type of fraud case. By grading trimmed cards they can still argue the subjectivity of a trim job and avoid the hassle.
Plus they do serve a purpose. They take trimmed cards out of the raw card market.
btw....I have 2 new emails from this guy. Because I had expressed interest in the 54' card he let me know about a PSA 6 he's found for 1275..."a customers price" and a 4 which is "rough for the price". He also stated "the hank aaron buyer is annoying" etc, etc. A very long graphic detail of the transaction. He said he sent emails to "other different address" in response. He was curious why "someone would trim for a 7, why not trim for 9???......etc, etc. "people get so wierd", etc,etc. "I back my stuff up", etc, etc.
I have no dog in this fight but if you want these emails I'll send them to you... just post your email.
The PSA 6 has what appears to be a 54' aaron......the top of the psa holder is cut out of the scan...therefore no number to verify. I'll send this to anyone that wants to have a look. I am not certain how to forward, paste, attach or cut and paste, etc, a scan over to this board from another email so if you want a look give me somewhere to send to.
This is curious but I am still with JRDolan.
I got a call from Dan Brown (icloseyou123) and he was pissed and said that he feels ripped off because PayPal removed the money from his account and that he was out the card. I asked him why he didn't respond to my emails, and he stated he did a couple of times to my different email address (I don't believe him). I have 3 email addresses I use. The registered eBay email (wrxncrew-2003@yahoo.com) and my PayPal email address (kenley_fritts@yahoo.com), and another one which I don't usually provide but I do check them all multiple times daily. In short, I didn't believe him when I asked him why he didn't send the card to PSA (he gave some excuse about trying to sell the high ticket items). Even if he is telling the truth and he didn't know the card would not crossover to PSA, I don't trust him. I'm sending the card back to him tomorrow insured and proof of receipt requested.
Well, you learned the same hard lesson that many of us did, but you didn't lose your money. Since the angels are smiling on you, time to buy a lottery ticket!
Glad to hear things are working out! That's an awful lotta dough! Are you sending it registered mail?
mike
<< <i>I'm sending the card back to him tomorrow insured and proof of receipt requested. >>
Good for you; glad it worked out. Insured for what? Next thing you know it's lost and you're involved in an insurance fraud. I'd just send it back registered or delivery conf and be done with it.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
PayPal Complaint Details:
Transaction ID:
5BR688453R828790H
Seller Name:
daniel brown
Seller Email:
icloseyou123@aol.com
Transaction Amount:
-$1,116.00 USD
Transaction Date:
Jun. 6, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PayPal Case ID:
PP-087-601-529
Reason for Dispute:
Not as Described
Buyer's Comments:
I was purchasing the card as an investment. Upon receiving the card and speaking with a PSA (Professional Sports Authenticators) authorized dealer in San Jose to get the card crossover graded, it was found to have been altered from the original state. The card I received cannot be crossover graded by PSA because it has been altered (trimmed) and now the card is worthless. I have sent several emails to the seller and all have gone unanswered. I believe it was his intention to misrepresent the card and commit fraud. If I do not get my money back for this, I will contact my credit card company, American Express and file a dispute.
Date of Complaint:
Jun. 11, 2005
Status:
Reviewing Case
Status Details:
We have received a statement from the seller disagreeing with your claim. We are reviewing this case and will contact you if we require additional information or when we reach a decision. No further action is required of you at this time.