I hope I didn't make a $1100 mistake...

1bbnerd · June 7, 2005 2:29AM

Well, I've been wanting the 1954 Topps Aaron for as long as I've been watching and playing baseball (little league). Aaron was huge when I was a kid... so the other day I decided to make an offer on this. I guess I should have asked here before jumping the gun.

Now, i'm a little worried because I read the thread concerning trimmed graded Pro cards.

Stingray · June 7, 2005 2:34AM

The best you can hope is to crack it and send it to PSA, unless you want to take a negative for non-payment??

Stingray

srs1a · June 7, 2005 2:34AM

If you're only a little worried, you might want to read this...

brucemo's PRO experiment

Ruthfan · June 7, 2005 2:37AM

Don't shoot the messenger, but this card has more than likely been under the knife if you know what I mean.

duner · June 7, 2005 2:40AM

i'd take the neg for $1100...the irony is, i'd be willing to bet the dealer would've taken any lowball offer to get rid of that card. live and learn.

KansasJayhawk · June 7, 2005 2:40AM

I would take the negative for not paying rather than get a trimmed card for $1100, if you offer to pay ebay fees and relist fees seller may be OK with you backing out......

lostdart58 · June 7, 2005 2:42AM

I would either take the negative or offer to pay his fees.

You probably made a $800-$900 mistake. $200- $300 is what the card is worth in a PRO case.

Spend $1100 or take a negative???..........I take the negative.

Knuckles · June 7, 2005 2:43AM

It doesn't look trimmed but the colors conern me as to it's authenticity.. The seller has good feedback. Maybe it's legit and he just got it graded by PRO to get a better grade?

Stone193 · June 7, 2005 2:43AM

<< Well, I've been wanting the 1954 Topps Aaron for as long as I've been watching and playing baseball (little league). Aaron was huge when I was a kid... so the other day I decided to make an offer on this. I guess I should have asked here before jumping the gun.

Now, i'm a little worried because I read the thread concerning trimmed graded Pro cards. >>

1bb
You made an offer? Have you sent the money yet? If not, DON'T! You WILL be disappointed and out 1100 bucks!

mike

Axtell · June 7, 2005 2:43AM

He states in his auction about cracking it, sending it to PSA, and making 25%.

My question would be, why didn't he do it?

EagleEyeKid · June 7, 2005 2:54AM

Oh man, that's a lot of dough.
If you crack it out and send it to PSA, then PSA
would be cracking up.

Take the negative and chalk it up as a learning
experience. The only clear evidence of trimming for
me is the left upper edge corner. Bad job with the
Ginsu knives. If you go up the left edge to the corner,
you'll see that it dips right (inwards). All the edges look
razor smooth also. I don't think this card came with
butterknife edges. Stop payment, stop whatever you need to do.
Just don't pay!

FavreFan1971 · June 7, 2005 3:02AM

Take the neg! One neg is worth $1100 to me.

zef204 · June 7, 2005 3:11AM

I would take the neg as well. Even if the card doesn't look trimmed it very likely is. I had a 59 Aaron I posted the other day that came from a PRO case an it was trimmed.

I have never seen that page about the pro expiriment before. Good stuff.

goudeygold · June 7, 2005 3:17AM

I AGREE!!!! Take the neg. tell him you thought it was PSA since he had PSA in the title. either way, don't buy it. he will get his fees back form ebay and you will get a non paying bidders strike. don't fret over it, just be more careful next time.

GG

1bbnerd · June 7, 2005 3:24AM

Should I crack it, or just send it to PSA and let them do it? I'm going to ask the seller if he will offer my money back if PSA finds evidence of trimming.

EagleEyeKid · June 7, 2005 3:27AM

I'm going to ask the seller if he will offer my money back if PSA finds evidence of trimming.

Ugh, you paid for it. That sucks.
I'd ask the seller immediately for a refund prior to doing
anything. If you're going to send it to PSA, leave it in the holder
and do the cross-over submission. This way, the card will still be
in its original holder even if it gets rejected in case the seller says
that he can't refund because the card has been removed from it's
original holder. If the seller refunds you, I'd be amazed
and hope that he does. Good luck.

Stingray · June 7, 2005 3:30AM

Did win the auction or did you offer him a price on the side for the card? If you won the auction, then it is too late to ask t the seller for a money back guarantee. I think you can send the card in and have PSA crack it, but I would be leary of sending anything in a PRO holder. Would be better if you cracked it yourself.

Stingray

UnAmuzd1 · June 7, 2005 3:48AM

The back/forth image (nice work, Knuckles) makes it 99.9% clear: That Aaron is short top/bottom. Almost certainly trimmed.

Morrie

calleocho · June 7, 2005 4:08AM

Trimming its almost a given...99.99 of all PRO graded vintage cards have been hacked.

the problem its ..what else could be wrong with the card, could be counterfit, a reprint, bleached?

goudeygold · June 7, 2005 4:17AM

If you already paid, then if you want to know the truth then you will have to crack it yourself and send raw to PSA / GAI / SGC in that order.

If it comes back trimmed then your going to have an ethical delimma trying to sell it. if you say it is trimmed you prob won't get 20% of what you paid. leave it in the holder and sell on ebay with no reserve and i'll bet you may get half or so. trade raw with a dealer not disclosing its been trimmed (if it comes back from PSA as so) and maybe you will get half or more of book in TRADE only.

good luck with whatever you decide. not all pro cards are trimmed, but this guy is also selling CSA (?) cards so I have no idea.

GG

kingraider75 · June 7, 2005 4:24AM

Don't crack it and then maybe resell it for a loss. The best option is the one about taking a negative. Can Ebay try to force money out of your bank account/credit card/paypal accout when you don't pay?

goudeygold · June 7, 2005 4:44AM

ebay can do nothing about non payment other than give you a non paying bidders strike and ultimately suspend you after 3 in 6 months I think it is.

I think he already paid though...

GG

UnAmuzd1 · June 7, 2005 4:51AM

<< Trimming its almost a given...99.99 of all PRO graded vintage cards have been hacked.

the problem its ..what else could be wrong with the card, could be counterfit, a reprint, bleached? >>

Anecdotal statistics aside, it's almost certain that the card is trimmed, t/b, and if that's true, it doesn't matter what else is wrong with it (the colors could be off because of a different type/quality of scanner, different light source, or any number of other things; there is no reliable way to identify bleaching or recoloring based on a scan, given the level of the technology involved). You reach a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly when you're talking about things that de-value a card.

Nerd, I'm really sorry for your purchase. I also had to learn the hard way about Pro-graded cards. Best advice is to try and get your money back. Did you pay with a credit card? If your CC company offers fraud protection, that might be the best way to go. If you paid with a CC through paypal, make sure to remove any way for paypal to access your bank accounts before doing a chargeback through your credit card, or paypal is apt to take the money straight from your bank account when the seller complains.

Better, of course, is for him to voluntarily refund your money. That's just not something I'd hold my breath on.

Good luck,

Morrie

goudeygold · June 7, 2005 4:53AM

If the seller is confident in his card, he should be glad to take a 10-15% restocking fee. I would jump on that like I would Danica in a bowl of jello.

GG

MorrellMan · June 7, 2005 5:10AM

The seller has this in his auction:

ALSO.ANY PROBLEMS,CONTACT ME FIRST NOT E-BAY. BE RESPECTFUL, I WANT REPEAT BUSINESS!! THANKS

I would take him at his word; tell him I made an awful mistake on this card and I need to undo the deal. See what he says.

Futureman · June 7, 2005 5:39AM

Here's another vote for taking the negative. Look at it this way: if someone paid you $1,100 to put a negative on your ebay account, would you do it? I would. I'd do it for $100.

ctsoxfan · June 7, 2005 5:45AM

Knuckles - that's great work on the overlapped images!

I would certainly do whatever I could to get my money back, and get out of this deal. Sorry to say, as everyone has said, that card has a very serious chance (I'm being nice) of being altered in some way. Even if you give him a couple hundred, and the card back, you'll be way ahead of the game here.

Brian48 · June 7, 2005 5:57AM

I would worry about the card being a fake more than trimmed. An Aaron rookie, even if it's hacked, is still of historical significance. PSA would not grade it, but they would at least authenticate it. I've seen trimmed cards in PSA holders with no grade assigned, but clearly stated as "Authentic - Trimmed" or something like that.

In any event, seeing anything in a Pro holder makes me cringe. I hope the best for you.

SDavid · June 7, 2005 6:04AM

He's not going to neg you for fear of a retaliatory neg. AFter all, how can he find another buyer if the previous one has just left a neg warning about trimmed cards?

Don't pay. If you did pay, and you paid through paypal, send it to psa in its holder. You have 45 days to file an 'item not as described' complaint against the seller. Paypal generally just requires a statement from an industry expert stating that the card isn't as described. If you have a rejection sticker from psa and the card is still sealed in the Pro holder, that will certainly suffice. You should win the chargeback, but still don't pay if you haven't already.

UnAmuzd1 · June 7, 2005 6:14AM

<< Paypal generally just requires a statement from an industry expert stating that the card isn't as described. >>

Seriously? Not to add fuel to the paranoia fire, but I've heard lots of stories from people who were sent total junk, and Paypal wouldn't give them their money back because they were sent something. They've always been very hands-off, in my experience, when it comes to authenticity.

I'm sure some digging around could turn up the thread (here or on Net54, I can't remember which) from the guy who was sent a box of modern junk with delivery confirmation when he paid for a Mantle card (or something similar) and Paypal denied his claim because the seller could show something had been delivered.

In other words... don't count on Paypal.

Lothar52 · June 7, 2005 6:33AM

i only payed 1200 for the psa 7 below...and I have piece of mind because of it.

loth

1bbnerd · June 7, 2005 6:55AM

<< He's not going to neg you for fear of a retaliatory neg. AFter all, how can he find another buyer if the previous one has just left a neg warning about trimmed cards?

Don't pay. If you did pay, and you paid through paypal, send it to psa in its holder. You have 45 days to file an 'item not as described' complaint against the seller. Paypal generally just requires a statement from an industry expert stating that the card isn't as described. If you have a rejection sticker from psa and the card is still sealed in the Pro holder, that will certainly suffice. You should win the chargeback, but still don't pay if you haven't already. >>

I think i'll take this advice and give the seller the benefit of the doubt. I also used my American Express so if there's any dispute about the merchandise I think i'm more protected than what PayPal would offer. Here's my email I sent to him:

Hi Dan,

I'm planning on submitting it to PSA for cross over grading. I've been reading that Pro grades cards that are trimmed. I'm not sure what to do if PSA rejects the card as trimmed. Are you confident that this card isn't altered? I'm buying it as an investment and if it cannot be graded by PSA, I may need to work something out with you.

Thanks,
Kenley

iamthegreatcornholio · June 7, 2005 7:14AM

<< Paypal generally just requires a statement from an industry expert stating that the card isn't as described. >>

I agree with Morrie. I have heard similar horror stories in the past where PayPal considered receiving a box of junk a "quality of goods" dispute, and they wouldn't help. Furthermore, unless they've changed their policy, you have 30 days to file the form. My dad once bought something off ebay and the seller strung him out for 5 weeks so paypal refused to help.

If you had to go through the forced refund route, going directly to AMEX is probably better.

Brian

kingraider75 · June 7, 2005 7:29AM

if the guy puts delivery or even signature confirmation on the package, I don't think PayPal will back you. That's why it's delivery confirmation on every stinking thing for me!

maybe he will get lucky and it will cross to PSA 4 or 5

1bbnerd · June 7, 2005 7:57AM

I have bigger/close up scans of the card if anyone cares to look at the card more closely.

Front

Back

SDavid · June 7, 2005 8:11AM

Seriously? Not to add fuel to the paranoia fire, but I've heard lots of stories from people who were sent total junk, and Paypal wouldn't give them their money back because they were sent something. They've always been very hands-off, in my experience, when it comes to authenticity.

Paypal only recently began accepting 'significantly not as described' complaints. Before that, they only covered non-delivery complaints. If you read the paypal forum on ebay at pretty much any time, you'll see lots of complaints from sellers about buyers winning nad complaints that aren't even legitimate. Any credit card will also offer that protection.

mudflap02 · June 7, 2005 8:18AM

<< Look at it this way: if someone paid you $1,100 to put a negative on your ebay account, would you do it? I would. I'd do it for $100. >>

I would do it for a dollar. Someone throw an auction number out there. Paypal address is mudflap02@hotmail.com.

WinPitcher · June 7, 2005 8:28AM

Return the card (reg mail) and call Amex and undo the deal. By pass paypal.

Email the seller and tell him you do not want it as it is not PSA as his description stated. End of story.

EagleEyeKid · June 7, 2005 8:34AM

I have bigger/close up scans of the card if anyone cares to look at the card more closely.

1b, not to pour more salt on the open wound, but with the larger
scan of the front, you can clearly see that big gap on the upper left edge/corner.
The edge is not against the holder wall.

You can also confirm it from the back scan on the same area as the green border
dimenishes as it gets closer to the copyright logo.

jrdolan · June 7, 2005 9:22AM

Of course it's trimmed, but I'd be more worried that it's not even a real Topps card. It looks very new. And since an untrimmed, genuine PSA 7 Aaron rookie books at only $50 more than you paid ....

Lothar52 · June 7, 2005 10:49AM

THAT CARD IS TRIMMMMED

earlycalguy · June 7, 2005 10:54AM

I hope this person gets their money back but why would paypal or a credit card company back the buyer on this one? the auction was for a pro graded 54' Aaron and that is what this person received. didn't they receive what they paid for?

detroitfan2 · June 7, 2005 11:06AM

I don't have much to add regarding the card, but I have to say that Knuckles might be the smartest computer person I've ever seen. First, he makes his own legendary cuts hockey cards, not the blinking Aaron rookie scans.

Also, I loved the story about Bruno's experiment. My favorite is when he trimmed 1/16 of an inch off the Mychal Thompson Fleer card and says "I sent the top part to Pro, I kept the bottom part." What a riot. This really goes to show how bad Pro is. I thought people were trimming this microscopic piece off, but when you see what Bruno trimmed, you might as well turn a regular 1975 Topps into a mini and send it in.

sayheykid54 · June 7, 2005 11:46AM

Take a negative on the transaction and save yourself the $1100.00. I guarantee the card has been trimmed. I learned the hard way on a Pro graded card in the past.

brianwintersfan · June 7, 2005 1:44PM

Not sure why the person who won this even is thinking about finishing off the transaction??
Seems odd to me that even after all of the advice he got he still plans on paying for it.I mean it's either trimmed or a fake or both.
What's wrong with this picture???

TNP777 · June 7, 2005 2:19PM

bwf - sounds like he completed the transaction before starting the thread. If so, hopefully the seller plays ball, or AmEx helps out.

Geordie

CDsNuts · June 7, 2005 2:30PM

It's fake, not trimmed.

Lee

brianwintersfan · June 7, 2005 2:57PM

<< sounds like he completed the transaction before starting the thread >>

Kind of like closing the barn door after the horse got out!

highend · June 7, 2005 5:13PM

OUCH!!

1bbnerd · June 8, 2005 3:45AM

No reply from the seller... I'm going to send him one last email telling him that i'm going to return the card and expect a refund of my money. He probably knew the card was not PSA gradeable other wise wouldn't it have been better for him to get it crossover graded to PSA to make the card easier to sell?

smallstocks · June 8, 2005 4:09AM

In a word, yes.

I hope I didn't make a $1100 mistake...

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