ellewood The lesson I learned as a newbie here....is to keep my mouth shut if I ever have grading issues.....cause the folks at PCGS sure don't play wiffleball
Exactly where in life is it good to bite the hand that feeds you? I do not think HRH needs any rear end kissing and his response to the thread was actually quite a bit more professional than it needed to be. The thread was informative for MODERN collectors while it lasted.--you guys are essentially wasting most of your money on grading anyway
<< <i>Either option costs the submitter more money. If in fact there was a PCGS mistake why should the submitter be penalized? And who should determine if PCGS made a mistake – PCGS? That sounds a little like the fox guarding the hen house. At the very least there is a conflict of interest. Now suppose the Presidential review finds the initial grade to be in error – why should the submitter pay for a PCGS error? >>
In theory, I agree -- it might be more "fair" if PCGS waived all fees -- including shipping -- if a presidential review went in favor of the re-submitter. It's sort of like a "loser pays" reform for civil litigation (which I support with a few limitations and guidelines).
The problem with this is that it opens up another avenue for claims (whether founded or unfounded) of conflict of interest. If PCGS had to eat the fees if they agreed with the submitter, are they going to be objective?
(I make no claims one way or the other. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that HRH and PCGS have thought about it in the past and realized this same thing. By offering to waive more fees if the review is successful, you can people the belief that you won't be fair in the review.)
I have a coin sent in for grade review/guarantee. It cost me shipping + $25 so far (been almost 2 months....my CC was charged almost immediately).
I believe the policy is that IF they agree that the coin is overgraded, then they will reimburse the $25 (not the shipping though ). If they reimbursed it all, you can bet even more people would be resubmitting their coins for the guarantee. As I am told by customer service that HRH looks at each and every one of the coins in for the review/guarantee, I doubt he has enough time to do that. So, I doubt it will happen.
<< <i>Personally, I believe I have become a better grader by sending coins to PCGS and not getting the results I expected. >>
MMmmmm, Kool-Aid.....
(+1) >>
No Cool-Aid.
I think some would agree, once I got over the FACT that I was/am not the best grader in the world and started paying attention to PCGS standards (and studying ANA grading standards) , was the day I stopped "wasting" money on grading fees. I have made 6 separate submissions (totaling over 100 coins) to PCGS in the past 6 months - and have been extremely pleased with the results. I have had more than a dozen coins upgrade (from PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and PCI holders) that I felt confident enough to crack-out prior to sending. The profit from these upgrades more than (much more than) pay for my grading fees.
I have also successfully crossed a high ratio of coins that (now in a PCGS) holder are worth more than the cost+crossover fees. The handful of coins that did not produce the results that I was hoping for have been thoroughly evaluated (and I have learned). Some will be sent to ANACS - Some to NGC...where I expect to get different grades. BUT...those coins are worth less in those holders - Why is that???
Do I have issues with TPG's (including PCGS) YOU BET YA. I am just trying to play the game...and refuse to stop learning.
My statement about what I learned was simply an observation. The expression I used about "whiffleball" was simply stating that PCGS does not horse around when it comes to banning people for this kind of behavior on the boards. If anyone is doing any "rear end kissing" as you would call it, it seems to be you. You blast me and then defend Mr. Hall by saying that his response was "a bit more professional than it needed to be". Why would I want to kiss up to Mr. Hall or anyone else at PCGS? I don't submit coins to them except for three free gradings that I got when I joined.
This is the first time since I've been on the boards that I have seen someone I know get bounced out of here so it made me realize that, if I ever have a problem with grading in the future, I need to keep my thoughts to myself. Sorry to hear that you don't like modern crap.....I do. If you can't respect me as a collector for that and you think I'm wasting my money, so be it. No skin off my back.
<< <i>Interesting thread. I would like to comment on HRH’s response – specifically about the presidential review. In the case of PCGS mistakes the submitting party has two options - re-submit and hope the mistake is corrected or presidential review. Either option costs the submitter more money. If in fact there was a PCGS mistake why should the submitter be penalized? And who should determine if PCGS made a mistake – PCGS? That sounds a little like the fox guarding the hen house. At the very least there is a conflict of interest. Now suppose the Presidential review finds the initial grade to be in error – why should the submitter pay for a PCGS error?
The ideal solution would be a third party grader that both PCGS and the submitter agree can settle the dispute, and the loser pays the fee. That is what happens in industrial chemical analysis disputes, but I have a doubt that is a realistic option here - mainly because of the potential cost to PCGS. I wish I could get my clients to pay for my mistakes.
Overall there is a lot of room for improvement in the coin grading business. When many thousands of dollars are at stake based on the subjective opinion of one, or two, or even three graders there is going to be a lot of discontent. As a buyer or as a seller the one thing that is needed above all else is consistency. Somehow the graders must be calibrated to produce the same grades today and 20 years from today. If I buy an MS65 coin today I want it to be an MS65 coin 20 years from now. If one dealer can turn in over 13,000 PCGS labels from coins that have upgraded there seems to be very little consistency in grading standards over time. >>
I agree with much of what you say with the exception of the 13000 labels. Many of those labels did not get an upgrade. Enough did that the sumbitter felt he should keep trying. HRH point is that while the grading process is not perfect, there is a course for resolution. Unfortuantely, this course is not economically feasible for low cost coins and as you state is still subject to a potential conflict of interest.
I believe he felt, correctly in my opinion, that his previous history of successfully getting 67's in very tough dates, several with pops less than 10, lent credence to his assertion. In many endeavors, a person's skill is enhanced with greater experience, yet his results indicated otherwise, if everything else is indeed the same as before.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Sure, he got 67's, but with how many submissions? If he was knockin' down 67's all the time and then came up with this submission it would be worth getting banned to hammer on PCGS. On the other hand, if he only got lucky once in a while, this last submission might have been a wake up call to take a grading course.
Haletj, AKA Jaime got banned over this thread!!! That is wrong. Some of the coins he was complaining about were PCGS crack outs that went from MS66RD to MS64RD!!! Either PCGS got it wrong then or now but there is no doubt they got it wrong. I just had the same thing happen to me two PCGS crack out Jefferson that were downgraded, 1 by 2 points, the FS grading is so tight I no longer have any full steps in my collection - LOL It had been my experience that grading goes in swings with PCGS and it usually relates to when new graders are hired. I think this is going on.
David, with all due respect, what we are buying from previous years is not the same as we are getting at the grading room today. A PCGS grading set from a few years ago is a sure way to get slammed right now. I can send you dozens of examples if you would like.
<< <i>Wow, the HomeRunHall dude posted on the Coin forum. Hmmm that Haletj got some attention dind't he? >>
He does post from time to time, too bad for Jaime, a valued Lincoln collector and friend. HRH is pretty good about answering questions on the Q/A forum as well. Must have been on a conference call with some stock analyst grinding his nads before he booted Jaime. HRH, IMO, was too harsh considering Jaime's valuable contributions, to PCGS customers (us) and to the PCGS stock holders over the years.
<< <i>Haletj, AKA Jaime got banned over this thread!!! That is wrong. >>
PCGS has made it abundantly clear the last couple of years that they will allow constructive criticism, but will ban anyone who constantly "bags" on PCGS. Try going to any other company's website that hosts a message board and declare that company a rip off. You will be booted just as quick.
I got to thinking (first time for everything ).....
Has there ever been a thread, before, that bags on PCGS, hits 100+ posts, gets the thread generator banned, gets nuked like this one has (kept the first post only), and then regrows???
Wow!
Also, HRH just made a cool "put up or shut up" thread in response to this thread basically.
i thought the point of tpg's was to get a more accurate, THIRD PARTY, slightly less subjective (certainly less subjective than the coins owner) grade. if you expect a grade to jump a point, you should be willing to accept it when it comes back a point lower. maybe it was damaged packaging, shipping, etc. no one is perfect, the goal is to come closer to perfect (and no, i dont mean on a 70 point scale =P)
To bad he got banned but pcgs needs to draw the line somewhere.It's just not good to see anyone get banned especialy when it is someone who contributes so much to this board.
''Coin collecting is the only hobby where you can spend all your money and still have some left''
Comments
The lesson I learned as a newbie here....is to keep my mouth shut if I ever have grading issues.....cause the folks at PCGS sure don't play wiffleball
Exactly where in life is it good to bite the hand that feeds you? I do not think HRH needs any rear end kissing and his response to the thread was actually quite a bit more professional than it needed to be. The thread was informative for MODERN
<< <i>I've got issues with PCGS and some of the forum members, but the same for NGC. I'm sure it's that way for everybody. >>
Not really.
<< <i>Either option costs the submitter more money. If in fact there was a PCGS mistake why should the submitter be penalized? And who should determine if PCGS made a mistake – PCGS? That sounds a little like the fox guarding the hen house. At the very least there is a conflict of interest. Now suppose the Presidential review finds the initial grade to be in error – why should the submitter pay for a PCGS error? >>
In theory, I agree -- it might be more "fair" if PCGS waived all fees -- including shipping -- if a presidential review went in favor of the re-submitter. It's sort of like a "loser pays" reform for civil litigation (which I support with a few limitations and guidelines).
The problem with this is that it opens up another avenue for claims (whether founded or unfounded) of conflict of interest. If PCGS had to eat the fees if they agreed with the submitter, are they going to be objective?
(I make no claims one way or the other. But I'll bet dollars to donuts that HRH and PCGS have thought about it in the past and realized this same thing. By offering to waive more fees if the review is successful, you can people the belief that you won't be fair in the review.)
It cost me shipping + $25 so far (been almost 2 months....my CC was charged almost immediately).
I believe the policy is that IF they agree that the coin is overgraded, then they will reimburse the $25 (not the shipping though
If they reimbursed it all, you can bet even more people would be resubmitting their coins for the guarantee.
As I am told by customer service that HRH looks at each and every one of the coins in for the review/guarantee, I doubt he has enough time to do that. So, I doubt it will happen.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>With over 2000 posts here this must be your ONLINE numismatic cottage then. You spend alot of time here. >>
Google says I have 4,890 posts over in RCC -- but I suspect that is low, as Google doesn't archive everything.
<< <i>Personally, I believe I have become a better grader by sending coins to PCGS and not getting the results I expected. >>
MMmmmm, Kool-Aid.....
(+1)
<< <i>
<< <i>Personally, I believe I have become a better grader by sending coins to PCGS and not getting the results I expected. >>
MMmmmm, Kool-Aid.....
(+1) >>
No Cool-Aid.
I think some would agree, once I got over the FACT that I was/am not the best grader in the world and started paying attention to PCGS standards (and studying ANA grading standards) , was the day I stopped "wasting" money on grading fees. I have made 6 separate submissions (totaling over 100 coins) to PCGS in the past 6 months - and have been extremely pleased with the results. I have had more than a dozen coins upgrade (from PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and PCI holders) that I felt confident enough to crack-out prior to sending. The profit from these upgrades more than (much more than) pay for my grading fees.
I have also successfully crossed a high ratio of coins that (now in a PCGS) holder are worth more than the cost+crossover fees. The handful of coins that did not produce the results that I was hoping for have been thoroughly evaluated (and I have learned). Some will be sent to ANACS - Some to NGC...where I expect to get different grades. BUT...those coins are worth less in those holders - Why is that???
Do I have issues with TPG's (including PCGS) YOU BET YA. I am just trying to play the game...and refuse to stop learning.
PCGS has no incentive to prevent upgrades on Presidential Review. Downgrades are a different matter, of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My statement about what I learned was simply an observation. The expression I used about "whiffleball" was simply stating that PCGS does not horse around when it comes to banning people for this kind of behavior on the boards. If anyone is doing any "rear end kissing" as you would call it, it seems to be you. You blast me and then defend Mr. Hall by saying that his response was "a bit more professional than it needed to be". Why would I want to kiss up to Mr. Hall or anyone else at PCGS? I don't submit coins to them except for three free gradings that I got when I joined.
This is the first time since I've been on the boards that I have seen someone I know get bounced out of here so it made me realize that, if I ever have a problem with grading in the future, I need to keep my thoughts to myself. Sorry to hear that you don't like modern crap.....I do. If you can't respect me as a collector for that and you think I'm wasting my money, so be it. No skin off my back.
<< <i>Interesting thread. I would like to comment on HRH’s response – specifically about the presidential review. In the case of PCGS mistakes the submitting party has two options - re-submit and hope the mistake is corrected or presidential review. Either option costs the submitter more money. If in fact there was a PCGS mistake why should the submitter be penalized? And who should determine if PCGS made a mistake – PCGS? That sounds a little like the fox guarding the hen house. At the very least there is a conflict of interest. Now suppose the Presidential review finds the initial grade to be in error – why should the submitter pay for a PCGS error?
The ideal solution would be a third party grader that both PCGS and the submitter agree can settle the dispute, and the loser pays the fee. That is what happens in industrial chemical analysis disputes, but I have a doubt that is a realistic option here - mainly because of the potential cost to PCGS. I wish I could get my clients to pay for my mistakes.
Overall there is a lot of room for improvement in the coin grading business. When many thousands of dollars are at stake based on the subjective opinion of one, or two, or even three graders there is going to be a lot of discontent. As a buyer or as a seller the one thing that is needed above all else is consistency. Somehow the graders must be calibrated to produce the same grades today and 20 years from today. If I buy an MS65 coin today I want it to be an MS65 coin 20 years from now. If one dealer can turn in over 13,000 PCGS labels from coins that have upgraded there seems to be very little consistency in grading standards over time. >>
I agree with much of what you say with the exception of the 13000 labels. Many of those
labels did not get an upgrade. Enough did that the sumbitter felt he should keep trying.
HRH point is that while the grading process is not perfect, there is a course for resolution.
Unfortuantely, this course is not economically feasible for low cost coins and as you state
is still subject to a potential conflict of interest.
Please check out my eBay auctions!
My WLH Short Set Registry Collection
I'd have to say that he did take it on the nose with those grades. If I was that far off, I'm not sure I'd post them.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Pharmer,
Sure, he got 67's, but with how many submissions? If he was knockin' down 67's all the time and then came up with this submission it would be worth getting banned to hammer on PCGS. On the other hand, if he only got lucky once in a while, this last submission might have been a wake up call to take a grading course.
This thread is so May 13th
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
David, with all due respect, what we are buying from previous years is not the same as we are getting at the grading room today. A PCGS grading set from a few years ago is a sure way to get slammed right now. I can send you dozens of examples if you would like.
<< <i>Wow, the HomeRunHall dude posted on the Coin forum. Hmmm that Haletj got some attention dind't he? >>
He does post from time to time, too bad for Jaime, a valued Lincoln collector and friend. HRH is pretty good about answering questions on the Q/A forum as well. Must have been on a conference call with some stock analyst grinding his nads before he booted Jaime. HRH, IMO, was too harsh considering Jaime's valuable contributions, to PCGS customers (us) and to the PCGS stock holders over the years.
<< <i>Haletj, AKA Jaime got banned over this thread!!! That is wrong. >>
PCGS has made it abundantly clear the last couple of years that they will allow constructive criticism, but will ban anyone who constantly "bags" on PCGS. Try going to any other company's website that hosts a message board and declare that company a rip off. You will be booted just as quick.
<< <i>Try going to any other company's website that hosts a message board and declare that company a rip off. You will be booted just as quick. >>
Too bad ACG doesn't have a message board
<< <i>
<< <i>Try going to any other company's website that hosts a message board and declare that company a rip off. You will be booted just as quick. >>
Too bad ACG doesn't have a message board
What good would a message board be if they had to ban every member????
Has there ever been a thread, before, that bags on PCGS, hits 100+ posts, gets the thread generator banned, gets nuked like this one has (kept the first post only), and then regrows???
Wow!
Also, HRH just made a cool "put up or shut up" thread in response to this thread basically.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."