You, Cash, Your Bank and the Patriot Act
cointagious
Posts: 847 ✭
I was searching today for banking info and ran across an interesting article from my neck of the woods.
Coin Dealer Diary blog
Patriot Act now jeopardizes small businesses
This last Wednesday I received a call from a customer I had done business with a few years back, very nice professional man. After a short exchange of greetings he had informed me that he wanted to purchase some United State Gold Eagle Coins and asked me the spread, I quickly quoted him a very fair percentage and he told me he would come Thursday and buy some, he had also asked me if cash was ok. I told him that I do not usually except cash but having the 8300 laws , I knew that everything was legal and upfront.
I typically always avoid dealing in cash because of the potential problems and real problems involved and would say 99% of my business is checks. I am under no illusion that this cost me some business and not from bad folks but from good folks that either do not have local checking accounts or prefer to LEGALY deal in cash.
On this particular occasion knowing this customer and having spoken and dealt with him in the past I was quite comfortable. In addition I had just received a full text copy of the IRS 8300 compliance laws regarding cash, I had read it a few times and also referred to it on this particular matter, No problem.
On Friday morning I spoke to my bank representative and mentioned that I would be making a cash deposit of $8000.00 and she immediately let out a sigh and said I’m sorry I cannot except cash deposits over $500.00 nor can we now cash checks for any non customers whatsoever. I was stunned, Knowing that this was no fault of my favorite bank representative I queried her on why.
In a nutshell she proceeded to tell me that the State of Florida has been doing inspections on banks and have informed many of them they are not in compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act (The name even sounds Orwellian, remember Orwell?) or B.S.A in short. Apparently, some banks had felt they were in compliance or had been on prior inspections but now the State of Florida is claiming that it was incorrect.
I now had a slight problem, what I should do with the cash I want to deposit. Shortly mid-afternoon the Bank President calls me to apologize for the inconvenience and of course, I have no problem with him, he is trying to protect his companies business against the potential of huge six figure fines and even jail time.
He then informed me that unless I could prove that my customer was real person by providing an invoice of the sale, a photo ID and a social security number that I could not deposit the cash. He also informed me even after I met these particular requirements for him that he could not do future cash transactions for me on either deposits or customers cashing checks. Obviously, this has caused a knee jerk reaction in how Banks will deal with cash in the future, or if they will even deal in cash at all.
I the proceeded to ask him for a written clarification of the states regulations at which he replied that the State of Florida has not provided any written details of what or how to enforce the New Bank Secrecy Act / Patriot Act. He then suggested I find something else to do with the cash or find ways to turn it into checks. I quickly remind him of the potential headache spending this cash would cause on my reporting requirements if I were ever audited; he acknowledged it could be a problem. At this point, I thanked him and told him that I would contact my customer and have him Fax his ID, Social Security Number and other pertinent information.
I quickly hung up, called my Customer, and left a message, he called me back shortly, I quickly explained the problem, and that I could not do anything with his cash. This gentleman then took time out of work to Fax his information directly to the bank and even offered to go to my bank and meet them personally.
Problem solved-or is it?
Ironically, the State and Federal Auditors who are paid to audit are paid and if they make a mistake o-well, they do not get fined or go to jail. The Ironic twist? Now the new B.S.A./Patriot Act laws requires Banks and Businesses to do the Federal and State Governments job of spying and enforcing laws and to top it off with no compensation, severe fines and possible jail time. So now, the American people have to do the Governments job under the penalty of law, helluv a system huh?
Does anyone find it odd that we are all obligated by law to do the Federal and State Tax authorities jobs under the threat of law? And if we make a simple mistake we, unlike those that are on government payrolls can be fined and/or jailed for simple mistakes?
Does anyone else wonder what is going to happen to millions of small businesses and individuals that deal mostly in cash or have simply saved cash over the years are going to do when banks stop accepting cash?
What about when businesses decide to stop accepting cash because they cannot deposit it or meet the Federal or State Requirements for investigating where their customers got the money. If I said this was Orwellian, it would infer the future, but its not, it is happening now. Who is to blame, all of us, we let our government official slide this job on our already full plate.
Will our grandparents or children have to fill out papers and be run through a Data Base to check for illegal activities when they want to deposit some Cookie Jar or Piggybank money? Im sure there are alot of grandparents sitting with lots of cash that they already paid taxes on but if asked would be hard pressed to actualy prove it. What about the folks that dont trust banks, you know the mattress stuffers. As usual the implications of these laws are poorly thought out and the premise of the whole idea is just plain misguided.
Ok, maybe a cashless society would be nice but who is going to guarantee and clear my checks reliably? That is a whole other story…
What to do?
The only way we can, become more politically active, watch more closely what our representatives are doing while at work and be more vocal with calls, letters and emails. If enough of us do this they will listen or get booted. No better time to start then now, send your Representaives emails and call the if you can, tell them how ridiculous these new laws are, and start today.
Good luck my friends, and make them calls.
TheCoinDealer
Coin Dealer Diary blog
Patriot Act now jeopardizes small businesses
This last Wednesday I received a call from a customer I had done business with a few years back, very nice professional man. After a short exchange of greetings he had informed me that he wanted to purchase some United State Gold Eagle Coins and asked me the spread, I quickly quoted him a very fair percentage and he told me he would come Thursday and buy some, he had also asked me if cash was ok. I told him that I do not usually except cash but having the 8300 laws , I knew that everything was legal and upfront.
I typically always avoid dealing in cash because of the potential problems and real problems involved and would say 99% of my business is checks. I am under no illusion that this cost me some business and not from bad folks but from good folks that either do not have local checking accounts or prefer to LEGALY deal in cash.
On this particular occasion knowing this customer and having spoken and dealt with him in the past I was quite comfortable. In addition I had just received a full text copy of the IRS 8300 compliance laws regarding cash, I had read it a few times and also referred to it on this particular matter, No problem.
On Friday morning I spoke to my bank representative and mentioned that I would be making a cash deposit of $8000.00 and she immediately let out a sigh and said I’m sorry I cannot except cash deposits over $500.00 nor can we now cash checks for any non customers whatsoever. I was stunned, Knowing that this was no fault of my favorite bank representative I queried her on why.
In a nutshell she proceeded to tell me that the State of Florida has been doing inspections on banks and have informed many of them they are not in compliance with the Bank Secrecy Act (The name even sounds Orwellian, remember Orwell?) or B.S.A in short. Apparently, some banks had felt they were in compliance or had been on prior inspections but now the State of Florida is claiming that it was incorrect.
I now had a slight problem, what I should do with the cash I want to deposit. Shortly mid-afternoon the Bank President calls me to apologize for the inconvenience and of course, I have no problem with him, he is trying to protect his companies business against the potential of huge six figure fines and even jail time.
He then informed me that unless I could prove that my customer was real person by providing an invoice of the sale, a photo ID and a social security number that I could not deposit the cash. He also informed me even after I met these particular requirements for him that he could not do future cash transactions for me on either deposits or customers cashing checks. Obviously, this has caused a knee jerk reaction in how Banks will deal with cash in the future, or if they will even deal in cash at all.
I the proceeded to ask him for a written clarification of the states regulations at which he replied that the State of Florida has not provided any written details of what or how to enforce the New Bank Secrecy Act / Patriot Act. He then suggested I find something else to do with the cash or find ways to turn it into checks. I quickly remind him of the potential headache spending this cash would cause on my reporting requirements if I were ever audited; he acknowledged it could be a problem. At this point, I thanked him and told him that I would contact my customer and have him Fax his ID, Social Security Number and other pertinent information.
I quickly hung up, called my Customer, and left a message, he called me back shortly, I quickly explained the problem, and that I could not do anything with his cash. This gentleman then took time out of work to Fax his information directly to the bank and even offered to go to my bank and meet them personally.
Problem solved-or is it?
Ironically, the State and Federal Auditors who are paid to audit are paid and if they make a mistake o-well, they do not get fined or go to jail. The Ironic twist? Now the new B.S.A./Patriot Act laws requires Banks and Businesses to do the Federal and State Governments job of spying and enforcing laws and to top it off with no compensation, severe fines and possible jail time. So now, the American people have to do the Governments job under the penalty of law, helluv a system huh?
Does anyone find it odd that we are all obligated by law to do the Federal and State Tax authorities jobs under the threat of law? And if we make a simple mistake we, unlike those that are on government payrolls can be fined and/or jailed for simple mistakes?
Does anyone else wonder what is going to happen to millions of small businesses and individuals that deal mostly in cash or have simply saved cash over the years are going to do when banks stop accepting cash?
What about when businesses decide to stop accepting cash because they cannot deposit it or meet the Federal or State Requirements for investigating where their customers got the money. If I said this was Orwellian, it would infer the future, but its not, it is happening now. Who is to blame, all of us, we let our government official slide this job on our already full plate.
Will our grandparents or children have to fill out papers and be run through a Data Base to check for illegal activities when they want to deposit some Cookie Jar or Piggybank money? Im sure there are alot of grandparents sitting with lots of cash that they already paid taxes on but if asked would be hard pressed to actualy prove it. What about the folks that dont trust banks, you know the mattress stuffers. As usual the implications of these laws are poorly thought out and the premise of the whole idea is just plain misguided.
Ok, maybe a cashless society would be nice but who is going to guarantee and clear my checks reliably? That is a whole other story…
What to do?
The only way we can, become more politically active, watch more closely what our representatives are doing while at work and be more vocal with calls, letters and emails. If enough of us do this they will listen or get booted. No better time to start then now, send your Representaives emails and call the if you can, tell them how ridiculous these new laws are, and start today.
Good luck my friends, and make them calls.
TheCoinDealer
0
Comments
with no problem at all
tim
It's for our Freedom and safety brothers and sisters
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I live in Florida, and I withdrew $10,000 from my business account, not to long ago, and deposited it in my personal account. All they said was, "If it had been one cent more, it would have been a big hassel."
Sumdunce
Yet it happend. I quickly went into the VP's office and mentioned how fast my business could disappear and that was that. However, there have been other instances as well and each time the lowlife politicians sign something labeled as the "patriot" act, watch out.
There's 8 trillion in debt and growing and they are GOING to collect it and it ain't the Chinese who are an easy mark.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>In your case Tom, your bank employs idiots. I would find another bank. >>
And there ya go Eric, making yet another statement I agree with. I will as soon as we buy a place in North Carolina. It's a pain in the butt to go changing with the kind of business I have here.
We probably would have been in NC already but because of you know what, we're just planning on leaving in a couple weeks to go and start looking again.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I regularly make deposits for the company I work for each day 5-10k and never have any problems.
Even the ones over 10k only require a 1 page form to fill out with the depositors ID required.
Joe
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
There are some stinky banks around, they deserse to lose their business until they decide to treat their customers fairly. We got pushed into on stinky bank in Mass. after some mergers up there. One of the great things about moving was that we got to leave that bank behind.
Banks must do an electronic reporting for any cash transaction over $3,000.00 and must fill out a form for those larger transactions over $10,000.00. Not accept $500.00 cash? I would give the bank manager my middle finger and walk out never to use that bank again.
Good hell.
Tyler
<< <i>Banks must do an electronic reporting for any cash transaction over $3,000.00 >>
Please show me where that is stated in the Patriot act, or anywhere in the Internal Revenue Code.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Herb
Nothing in this post makes any sense ...
This is an article I read.
The fact that a customer does not have an account with the business does not relieve the business entirely from collecting and verifying information about the customer. For instance, when a customer who does not have an account requests a bank check, cashier's check, traveler's check or money order for $3,000 or more (or conducts a series of transactions aggregating $3,000), the business must record the person's name, address, social security number or alien identification number, date of birth, date of purchase, type of instrument, serial number of instrument and dollar amount. The business must also verify the name and address of the individual, and must record the specific identifying information (i.e., the state of issuance and number of a driver's license.) Similar requirements apply to transmittal orders greater than $3,000.
Patriot act and banking requirements.
<< <i>K6AZ - asked = "Please show me where that is stated in the Patriot act, or anywhere in the Internal Revenue Code. "
This is an article I read.
The fact that a customer does not have an account with the business does not relieve the business entirely from collecting and verifying information about the customer. For instance, when a customer who does not have an account requests a bank check, cashier's check, traveler's check or money order for $3,000 or more (or conducts a series of transactions aggregating $3,000), the business must record the person's name, address, social security number or alien identification number, date of birth, date of purchase, type of instrument, serial number of instrument and dollar amount. The business must also verify the name and address of the individual, and must record the specific identifying information (i.e., the state of issuance and number of a driver's license.) Similar requirements apply to transmittal orders greater than $3,000.
Patriot act and banking requirements. >>
Same applies here Tyler. I don't want to see an article with someone's interpretations, I want to see where the law states this.
<< <i>Here is the correct link... >>
That's still nothing more than conjecture and opinion. Some banks are indeed making up their own reporting policies way in excess of what the law requires. But just like last time, no one can cite the specific law because it doesn't exist.
Banks in Florida no longer accept cash. BANKS don't accept money. Most interesting.
roadrunner
Here is what happened to me (it is sadly funny as well):
I went to my business bank (who never blinks when I deposit or withdraw up to $10,000 cash on any given day) and deposited checks into my account. The teller and officer said: "do not put your account number on the back of the check anymore since this protects your privacy."
I said "Oh really, is this new?" They responded. "Yes, this is part of the Patriot Act in which you do not put any account information on the back of your check to prevent "messages and private information " from being sent from depositor to check writer. Also it protects the depositor from having allof his account information being revealed to the check payer to avoid fraud down the line. Hmmmm, I thought, this actually makes sense.
So a few days later I take a few small dividend checks to deposit into my personal account and do not include any account numbers on the back of the check. (This bank ALSO never blinks when I deposit or withdraw up to $10,000 cash on any given day). The teller said, " I cannot deposit these checks the way they are." I responded, "Huh?"
The teller proceeded to go into a long rendition of how there was a rule that you had to put checking account information on the back of the checks. I then proceeded to ask one more question, "Is this a new rule?" Her response, "Oh yes, this is a brand new rule under the Patriot Act."
The problem is the dumbing down of the bank system in which you no longer have many competent people working as tellers dealing with all of the rules and regs. For many, these are first jobs in an industry that no longer seems to want to have retail banks. Branch managers no longer make decisions on loans, have no real authority, and seem to be more and more temporary. The banks at the retail level no longer understand old time banking.
A bank in my area of Rockland County, NY (Provident Bank) has seen their entire internet and on-line bank system FAIL for the last two - three days. Their IBM server FAILED and they are now back to bank in the 19th century!! No back up server system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here is the link to the bank information link: Provident Bank (Nasdaq: PBCP)
Provident Bank Portal ... Provident Bank's Internet Banking and Bill Payment service is not available ... Press Releases. Bank History. return to top ...
Category: New York State > Rockland County > Banks
www.providentbanking.com - 46k - Cached - More from this site
By the way; after the 3rd day of no updating to bank accounts whether on-line or even at the branch, the bank may have finally gotten their their server up and running Saturday morning the 30th of April and has now updated bank account information up tthrough the 27th of April!!!
<< <i><< Banks must do an electronic reporting for any cash transaction over $3,000.00 >>
<<Please show me where that is stated in the Patriot act, or anywhere in the Internal Revenue Code. >>
Your banker is required to fill out a Monetary Instrument Log for any $3000.00+ cash transaction under BSA Currency Transaction Reporting guidelines.
True, but they do tend to be attractive young ladies!
AS I live overseas and have accounts in America, I wanted to change a few accounts and account features. Unfortunately the firm I was doing business with needed a signature guarantee to effect the changes....
So while on vacation in Hawaii I took the form to a bank that met the requirements to perform the signature guarantee. I was NOT a customer of the bank and they would not perform the signature guarantee.
And EVEN if had been a customer the manager told me that they wouldn't do it unless I had been a customer for at LEAST THREE YEARS.
Just for a signature guarantee....
So just wondering how people moving from one state to another to from another country would be able to get a signature guarantee......if needed.
Also I wonder about all the different reporting requirements about cash......
FYI, In Japan you can take out 500,000 yen at some bank ATM's at one time and that is about $5000 US.....
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
<< <i>Not the same thing, but just to show how things have changed (and become worse over the recent past) in the USA:
AS I live overseas and have accounts in America, I wanted to change a few accounts and account features.
Try HSBC which is a much more global friendly bank despite it having major branches in the US. I never had those difficulties in Hong Kong although when I went to wire from there to a different bank in Fla, it was as though I was doing something wrong.
I won't go any further with how I feel about that although one of these days...........
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>The Federal Reserve Note is not money nor cash. >>
99.999% of the population would disagree with you, as does dictionary.com.
mon·ey ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn)
n. pl. mon·eys or mon·ies
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquifiable account.
The official currency, coins, and negotiable paper notes issued by a government.
Assets and property considered in terms of monetary value; wealth.
Pecuniary profit or loss: He made money on the sale of his properties.
One's salary; pay: It was a terrible job, but the money was good.
An amount of cash or credit: raised the money for the new playground.
Sums of money, especially of a specified nature. Often used in the plural: state tax moneys; monies set aside for research and development.
A wealthy person, family, or group: to come from old money; to marry into money.
cash1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ksh)
n.
Money in the form of bills or coins; currency.
Payment for goods or services in currency or by check
UNDER a recent provision in a US Senate bill---the mere act of questioning the BSA was in and of itself considered "SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY" and required the bank to report the incident and YOU.
If that is the case and I believe in my current paranoid state that it is, it's best to keep quiet.
Dissent or inquiries are now considered unpatriotic.
edited...an inquiry as to ones obligations and legal standing is now considered SUSPICIOUS.
In fact,it also applys to Casinos as well,wether you buy chips or cash them in.
Cash transactions of $10,000.01 or more require a currency transaction report to be filled out, UNLESS that person or business has been exempted. There are exemptions, though not many.
If a person or business is aware of the limits and purposely tries to avoid getting reported (example: a cash deposit of $9900.00), or if they ask you what the limit is, or if they ask if they will be reported, or if something does not seem right about the transaction, a suspicious activity report is filled out.
<< <i>or if they ask you what the limit is, or if they ask if they will be reported, or if something does not seem right about the transaction, a suspicious activity report is filled out. >>
Under BSA guidelines any suspicious activity is subject to reporting and the subjectiveness is left up to the bank. This subjectiveness may be the source of the problem illustrated in the coin dealer diary blog.
<< <i>What bs, believe it if that is your bent, just another paranoid rant about the patriot act. >>
Absolutely. The Liberals will stop at nothing to condemn this act which is the best one to come along in years. I lived in Florida for quite a few years, and the banks ther can be very anal retentive, so I can see them coming up with some of these rules in house and passing the reason off on some government rules. Change banks! I've just deposited $26,000 in cash and had no troubles at all.