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Can cleaned coins be uncleaned?

The attached photos are of coins recently purchased for astonishing low prices due to being cleaned. Why people do this is beyond me but I guess it's an attempt to raise the value and instead it distroys the value. So here is my question: anyone know of a way to subdue the cleaned look? Return even a slight look of a normal coin? These are in fairly decent condition so it may be worth any try. Any good or even bad suggestions???????? The coins are 09S, 18D and 21S.
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Carl

Comments

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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    You can reduce the effects by wearing them down until the affected surfaces are worn off of the coin. Other than that...no.
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    dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭
    Yes, they can be. Place them in your pocket for approximately 5 years of standard wear and tear. They should be nice and uncleaned by then.
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    coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485


    << <i>Why people do this is beyond me but I guess it's an attempt to raise the value and instead it distroys the value >>

    Many people clean coins, not in attempts to make them more valuable, but to make them look better (remove "tarnish" etc.), not realizing that they are hurting the value.
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure they can...just sandblast them and get them in an ACG holder graded as matte proofs!

    image
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    7summits7summits Posts: 316 ✭✭
    Outhaul, you're BAAAAAAAAAAAD!! image
    image
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah...but I'm good at it...image
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    ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Outhaul, you're BAAAAAAAAAAAD!! image >>

    And served. image
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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Deller Darkener" will ....somewhat..... make them less awful looking in an album.
    Available at some coin shops.
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    northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Many a cleaned coin has been toned over (such as placed in a paper bag on a windowsill and left there for a long period of time) and ended up in major grading services holders. Especially true for early date US coins.
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    dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    yes the can be, easily. you can also tumble them. i've seen many cleaned coins that were tumbled & subsequently looked perfectly original.

    K S
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    OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>And served >>


    Well, as they say, you can't squeeze blood from a rock!

    Cheers,

    Bob
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    carlcarl Posts: 2,054
    Never heard of Deller Darkener but I'll try at the local hobby shop. If not there I'll try some really big coin stores in the downtown area of Chicago next week. As to Tumble them, in what?
    As to putting them in a paper bag on the window for a long time, just about how long not that I'm in a hurry.
    The main thing is I want to put them in the Lincoln cent because they are in pretty good condition but they look goofy there because of the condition of the rest of that set. Most of the set is at least AU50 but these would stand out like a lighthouse beacon.
    Like I said I'll try anything.
    Carl
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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The 1909-S is almost passable, and might look better it was stored in a sulfur paper envelope for a few years. The other two a pretty hopless unless you wear them down to a lower grade. The surfaces on those coins have been really stripped.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,436 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dorkkarl---Could you please elaborate on how to tumble coins to remove evidence of cleaning? Are they tumbled with other coins or some other material? Wouldn't try it myself but I do find this very interesting.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the case of copper coins you can use a technique from the distant past. I call it "armpitting." Place the coin in a felt 2x2 . Safety-pin the felt 2x2 into the armpit of an undershirt and wear it around. The coin will darken naturally over time. Just how fast will depend on your own chemical makeup and how active you are!
    All glory is fleeting.
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    carlcarl Posts: 2,054
    I'd almost like to try the armpitting thing but afraid it's a joke and would feel stupid with a coin hanging form my armpit. I still don't understand this tumble thing. No answer as to what that's all about. A coin dealer I know said to bury them in a dirt flower pot for a while. Anyone hear of that of was he pulling my leg also?
    Carl
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    cladkingcladking Posts: 28,339 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The '09-S would look fine if you just kept it on the hot water heater for a few months. -thumb it first.

    The '18-D would take a lot longer so carrying in your pocket a while would work faster.

    The '21-S is a mess. It looks whizzed as well as cleaned so will take a lot of wear to be normal again.
    Tempus fugit.
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    dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    if you decide to tumble coins, tumble 'em w/ other coins, but also other pieces of metal w/out sharp edges. otherwise, you'll end up w/ coins that do look uncleaned, but w/ an abnormal amount of nicks & little scratches. also, throw in some dirt - no i'm not kidding, literally potting soil.

    it works. i've seen heavily cleaned bust dollars that were tumbled come out looking almost perfectly original. the risk is that you can easily lose a full grade of detail.

    K S
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    mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Sure you can unclean. I'm going to sell some unopened proof sets that I'm unopening at this very moment.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
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    greghansengreghansen Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
    if you decide to tumble coins, tumble 'em w/ other coins, but also other pieces of metal w/out sharp edges. otherwise, you'll end up w/ coins that do look uncleaned, but w/ an abnormal amount of nicks & little scratches. also, throw in some dirt - no i'm not kidding, literally potting soil.

    I've heard this from a couple of sources and always wondered about it. I have never done it personally, although I did carry around a harshly cleaned 1934-D VAM-4 Peace Dollar in my pocket change for over a year and it did eventually look much better, to the point that it did get slabbed. I don't know how much detail I lost in the process. Should have done B4 and after pictures, but I was just curious and screwing around to see what would happen.

    Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum

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    gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    Lots of great, sneaky tips on this thread...my compliments. Should be reworded to say, "The coin I have has been rendered practically worthless. Is there a way to doctor/disguise the coin so I can sell it without informing the buyer of its true history?"
    In no other walk of life is there as much subterfuge and devil-take-the-hindmost disingeunousness as coin collecting. The only rule seems to be "education"--learn how the system works, how the game is played and how to otherwise exploit every facet from buyers to sellers to the coins themselves, and the best man wins. Amazing how a dark undeberbelly not only exists, but is the prevailing force.
    Artificially tone coins...unclean cleaned coins...what a shameless mess.
    A spot of ativan, a rest from from my Richard Petty Driving Experience over the weekend, recovery from a gorgeous coin that just came back "cleaned" from NGC (a second had PVC damage), and I'll be back at it. Jesus!
    image
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    cladkingcladking Posts: 28,339 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Lots of great, sneaky tips on this thread...my compliments. Should be reworded to say, "The coin I have has been rendered practically worthless. Is there a way to doctor/disguise the coin so I can sell it without informing the buyer of its true history?"
    In no other walk of life is there as much subterfuge and devil-take-the-hindmost disingeunousness as coin collecting. The only rule seems to be "education"--learn how the system works, how the game is played and how to otherwise exploit every facet from buyers to sellers to the coins themselves, and the best man wins. Amazing how a dark undeberbelly not only exists, but is the prevailing force.
    Artificially tone coins...unclean cleaned coins...what a shameless mess.
    A spot of ativan, a rest from from my Richard Petty Driving Experience over the weekend, recovery from a gorgeous coin that just came back "cleaned" from NGC (a second had PVC damage), and I'll be back at it. Jesus! >>



    I see this from an entirely different perspective. It seems more that collectors are overly concerned
    with things they can't see or that can't matter. Certainly a plugged hole in a coin matters because
    it may someday show no matter how well it's done. The same is true for anything which adds or sub-
    tract elemental metal or moves it into a new position. It's also true for procedures which mask or re-
    moves defects.

    But cleaning is the problem, not the "recirculation" of the coin. Such polishing and recirculating occurs
    naturally in circulation quite frequently. Many insults happen to coins and are hidden and long forgot-
    ten just because the coins wears down below the damage. There is nothing in the least dishonest a-
    bout this. Indeed one is taking a coin which might have been cleaned to decieve a newbie and restor-
    ing it to a collectible condition. This new condition might be a lower grade than when it was cleaned
    but so long as the coin has good honest wear than how can it matter how that wear occured? How can
    it ever even be detected since coins wear like this in circulation?

    Should collectors not collect circulated coins at all because it may or may not have been intentionally
    cleaned and then intentionally or unintentionally restored to an "original" condition?
    Tempus fugit.
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    Run over them with the car a few times. No one will ever notice that they were clean at one time.
    jdp
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    gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>
    Should collectors not collect circulated coins at all because it may or may not have been intentionally
    cleaned and then intentionally or unintentionally restored to an "original" condition? >>



    Anyone can collect any coin they want for any reason. But altering the condition of a coin in any way, or marketing a coin that has been cleaned without full disclosure, is tantamount to fraud in my opionion. In my opinion, most cleaned coins change hands with knowledge by the owner. I admire those who announce a cleaned coin as such, but I've never heard (and never will) see a listing anywhere that says, "This coin was cleaned but I uncleaned it by leaving it on my windowsill and have restored it to its original condition." That would be a kiss of death, and if every knowledgeable dealer/collector abided by a rule of strict honesty, most commerce would cease. It's a joke. The only outright objections to cleaning I see is from a purist standpoint, rather than a wholesale acknowledgement that it's behind the single biggest losses and gains in everyday coin commerce. Someone buys a gorgeous coin for X amount, sends it to a TPG, and if it comes back cleaned, good-night Irene. It's awful. One might just as well ask, "What can I do to make this counterfeit coin appear more convincing?" In the lion's share of cases, one party knew the coin had been cleaned.
    Let it be known, cleaning does not happen "naturally." I'm much more forgiving about PVC damage, which does occur naturally in that it is always unintentional. Someone physically tampered with the coin even if it happened six decades ago, and did so to make it more valuable for sale or trade. The effect of that sin ripples forward and continues today, and chances are, that cleaned coin will shatter somebody's heart 50 years in the future.
    I appreciate your perspective, but am having difficulty adopting the throw-up-your-hands approach. I think cleaning is an insidious problem and a pervasive one, because to survive in the hobby, people are forced to warp/mitigate some very basic truths and continually stretch the bounds of their conscience--if they bought a coin that turned out to be cleaned, it is human nature to refuse to lose money in this fashion, and to level the playing field they will attempt to recoup it a way that involves some chicanery. It's a devil's game, love of coins vs. Jiminy Cricket sitting on their shoulder. This hobby will present a crisis of conscience faster and more often than any trade I've ever seen. The really weird thing is that nobody acknowledges it outright. I'm surprised there haven't been more philosophical threads on this topic. There is a constant soul searching and seeking of what is an acceptable code of ethics--there are posts every day about the way ebay sellers present their wares, whether individuals are right in presenting a coin in a certain way, etc. etc. It just blows me away that advice on how to fix a cleaned coin would be shared so openly and with tacit approval, by the most serious and devout lovers of the hobby--the people on this board.
    I'm glad this message is buried, because it isn't very articulate. But I sure wanted to rant, because I am way hacked off about my recent purchase (From a dealer at coin show no less!) coming back cleaned, and am torn between throwing the effing thing in the ocean, going through the misery of hunting the fellow down and confronting him about it without having a receipt (and two months after the fact) or selling it to someone else the way it was sold to me. What a nightmare.


    image
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    cladkingcladking Posts: 28,339 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    Anyone can collect any coin they want for any reason. But altering the condition of a coin in any way, or marketing a coin that has been cleaned without full disclosure, is tantamount to fraud in my opionion. In my opinion, most cleaned coins change hands with knowledge by the owner. I admire those who announce a cleaned coin as such, but I've never heard (and never will) see a listing anywhere that says, "This coin was cleaned but I uncleaned it by leaving it on my windowsill and have restored it to its original condition." That would be a kiss of death, and if every knowledgeable dealer/collector abided by a rule of strict honesty, most commerce would cease. It's a joke. The only outright objections to cleaning I see is from a purist standpoint, rather than a wholesale acknowledgement that it's behind the single biggest losses and gains in everyday coin commerce. Someone buys a gorgeous coin for X amount, sends it to a TPG, and if it comes back cleaned, good-night Irene. It's awful. One might just as well ask, "What can I do to make this counterfeit coin appear more convincing?" In the lion's share of cases, one party knew the coin had been cleaned.
    Let it be known, cleaning does not happen "naturally." I'm much more forgiving about PVC damage, which does occur naturally in that it is always unintentional. Someone physically tampered with the coin even if it happened six decades ago, and did so to make it more valuable for sale or trade. The effect of that sin ripples forward and continues today, and chances are, that cleaned coin will shatter somebody's heart 50 years in the future.
    I appreciate your perspective, but am having difficulty adopting the throw-up-your-hands approach. I think cleaning is an insidious problem and a pervasive one, because to survive in the hobby, people are forced to warp/mitigate some very basic truths and continually stretch the bounds of their conscience--if they bought a coin that turned out to be cleaned, it is human nature to refuse to lose money in this fashion, and to level the playing field they will attempt to recoup it a way that involves some chicanery. It's a devil's game, love of coins vs. Jiminy Cricket sitting on their shoulder. This hobby will present a crisis of conscience faster and more often than any trade I've ever seen. The really weird thing is that nobody acknowledges it outright. I'm surprised there haven't been more philosophical threads on this topic. There is a constant soul searching and seeking of what is an acceptable code of ethics--there are posts every day about the way ebay sellers present their wares, whether individuals are right in presenting a coin in a certain way, etc. etc. It just blows me away that advice on how to fix a cleaned coin would be shared so openly and with tacit approval, by the most serious and devout lovers of the hobby--the people on this board.
    I'm glad this message is buried, because it isn't very articulate. But I sure wanted to rant, because I am way hacked off about my recent purchase (From a dealer at coin show no less!) coming back cleaned, and am torn between throwing the effing thing in the ocean, going through the misery of hunting the fellow down and confronting him about it without having a receipt (and two months after the fact) or selling it to someone else the way it was sold to me. What a nightmare. >>



    I'm not a fan of either cleaning or doctoring. All we're saying in this thread is that a
    cleaned coin can be uncleaned. I'm sorry to hear of your loss on a cleaned coin but
    keep in mind that this coin simply wasn't "uncleaned".

    Coins do get polished in circulation by various methods and do get cleaned by acids,
    body sweats, being left in pants in the washing machine and myriad other chemicals
    and processes to which circulating coins are exposed.
    Tempus fugit.
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    gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    Point well taken. I will now rest.
    image
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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .

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    AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2023 10:32PM

    What was the point of bringing this back from 2005???

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    FrazFraz Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of your cats? I know that Ricko’s dog has the skills.

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    LazybonesLazybones Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Only in your pocket over a long period of time.

    Exactly how patient are you?

    USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.

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    Stingray63Stingray63 Posts: 299 ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2023 2:57PM

    @northcoin said:
    Many a cleaned coin has been toned over (such as placed in a paper bag on a windowsill and left there for a long period of time) and ended up in major grading services holders. Especially true for early date US coins.

    I actually tried that once with a Barber quarter in a manila envelope and after 6-8 months it didn't look too bad. Was wondering the impact of doing the same but on the ledge under the back window inside my car during the summer months and hotter temperatures.

    Pocket Change Inspector

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