I purchased a coin with a guaranteed grade and it came back lower. Return it?

Chazpear

Recently I purchased a coin from a local dealer. It was one of those coins that just sort of jumps out at you with eye appeal, atleast it did for me. At the time though I thought the price was a little high. In talking with the dealer he gave me a guarantee with the sale. If the coin was submitted for certification and did not get graded 65RD or higher, bring it back for a full refund. I send it in and low and behold I get the coin back graded 64RD. So, my question. Do I take advantage of the guarantee or keep the coin. I paid 15% over 64RD price, but that is still more then $300 under 65RD pricing. I really like the look and I believe it is a very high end 64RD. Or am I just over thinking this and I should run back to the shop with under graded coin in hand tomorrow for the refund.

Thanks for your thoughts

mirabela

It sounds like you like the coin a lot. I'm not sure how many dollars "15% over" is, but I guess the question is, can you get another one you like as much, for less? And is the difference worth the hassle?

poorguy

I think the dealer shouldn't have made the guarantee. I agree with the grade of 64RD.

haletj

I had a pcgs 64rd 1901 that looked just like that. I think 65rd is stretching it, but %15 is not that much of a premium to pay for a coin you like.

clw54

If you like it, keep it and don't worry about the number on the slab.

RYK

If you like the coin, find a way to keep such that you do not feel that you overpayed for it. You can always go back and negotiate with the dealer, though it might be awkward for both parties.

I agree with poorguy. The coin does not look like a 65, and the dealer should not have made the deal.

Ultimately, as mirabela points out, it may not be worth the hassle, but hopefully you learned a valuable lesson for not to high a price. Frankly, if this is the biggest numismatic mistake you ever made, you are way ahead of most of the rest of us.

(Nice looking coin, BTW)

markglicker

Ask the dealer for a 15% price adjustment. Should he not agree, decide whether the coin is worth keping.

BigD5

Grade it by the price you paid. If you think the coin is worth the money spent, regardless of what pcgs said, keep it. If not, take advantage of the dealer's return priv. that he offered.

I'd keep the coin.

coinbuf

I agree with what a few other have said, in the pic the coin looks like a 64 just as graded. If it were mine I'd show it to the dealer and take your cues from what he has to say.

Chris

Chazpear

This is one of the reasons that I keep coming back here. I REALLY do appreciate the thoughts and experience of the people here. I can not begin to tell you how much I’ve learned.

I really do like the looks of the coin and was happy with the price I paid and how it came back from PCGS. However, I certainly would not have complained had it come back 65RD. I look at the realized prices on Heritage for both 64RD and 65RD and they were $172.27 and $507.63 respectively. At the time of purchase he had a $150 on the coin, and I ended up paying $170 with the guarantee. So, I really do not feel that I over-paid or made a mistake. Maybe paid a small premium. Worth it in my opinion though. I would say that it would cost me at least as much as I paid to get one as nice or nicer looking.

I am not really too concerned with the “number on the holder” as I intend to keep it for a while. And if I have learned anything, it is not all numbers are equals. I’ve seen some real nice 62’s and 63’s, and some real butt ugly 64’s and 65’s.

Again, Thank you all for your input.

RBinTex

In the future, assume the probability of getting a 5 is around 10-25% with obverse marks, darkening, discoloration, etc. such as the one you show.

clw54

Come to think of it, the dealer made a good deal. If you return it, he now has a certified coin for sale. He probably knew it wouldn't make 65. If he had thought so, he would have submitted it himself and priced it accordingly.

Chazpear

getting a 5 is around 10-25% with obverse marks, darkening, discoloration

Thats a very good point. And I guess in my excitement I over looked that.


clw54 - In hindsight that makes perfect sense. Had I made it a regular submission, It would have cost the money and the dealer would get a certified coin for less then he could have submitted it for.

Mrpawn

Sounds like a keeper to me.

I would let the dealer know the grading result and MY Decision to keep it anyway and thank him for the nice 64 RD. Price paid does not seem at all out of line.

clackamas

"So, my question. Do I take advantage of the guarantee or keep the coin."

yep, then buy it back for 65% of the 64RD price. The coin is clearly not full GEM.

mozin

Sounds like the dealer charged you $20 for the grade guarantee. Since you seem happy with the coin I think the dealer should refund your $20.

construct

<< <i>Sounds like the dealer charged you $20 for the grade guarantee. Since you seem happy with the coin I think the dealer should refund your $20. >>



That's what I was thinking. It would offset your submission fee. I'd mention it to him anyway just to see what he says.

KurtHorn

That's a win - win for the dealer, so do as you want based on whether you like it. If you keep it - he wins because he got premium money for a 64 coin. If you bring it back he wins - because now has a slabbed coin where before it was raw and it didn't cost him a cent...

Edited to add: I don't think its fair to ask for a partial refund. You made a contract when you bought the coin. Although you should be careful with this dealer in the future. He sounds like a typical dealer,... shrewd. And, if you thought a dealer was going to give you a 65 coin for well below 65 money then you need to re-think...

construct

When I said I'd mention it to him, I meant I'd mention the certified grade in passing, amongst other conversation--perhaps even while buying another coin.

Elcontador

Maybe I am more cynical than most, but if I was a dealer and thought that coin would 5, I would have submitted it myself. What he should have told you is that he thought the coin was a very nice 4. While the surfaces on your coin appear to be clean, an IHC must have outstanding eye appeal to get into a PCGS 5 RD holder. This coin IMO just isn't there.

Personally, I don't mind paying 10 or maybe even 20% over sheet for a type coin which is really nice for the grade. In fact, if it is that nice, I don't think a smart dealer will sell it to you for less than that. Most 4 RDs I've seen either have spots or easily discernable contact marks. You coin doesn't have either.

Lastly, Heritage is a good price guide to use. However, keep in mind that many of the coins sold at its auctions are not choice for the grade. You can't properly gauge the price of a nice for the grade coin by looking at pricing info for average for the grade coins.

MAD4MORGANS

Maybe you sent it to the wrong Grading service. Maybe you should have sent it to

gyocomgd

As it was a verbal guarantee and it's a jungle out there, present the slabbed coin with a reminder of his promise and an insouciant shrug. Then find the best coin he has that you like, get his price and ask for a 20% discount with the suggestion that he'd be doing the right thing, in view of of the previous eff-up. If he balks, head for the exits.
But if you need him, disregard this advice except for the part about it being a jungle out there, and understand you're going to be punked out forever.

dorkkarl

<< <i>It was one of those coins that just sort of jumps out at you with eye appeal, atleast it did for me >>

you'd be a da#n fool to return it. what matters here is, YOU LIKE IT. why do you care what somebody else thinks? live our life according to YOUR standards, not someone else's.

best of all, crack the coin out & ENJOY IT.

K S

dorkbar

Typical dink and/or amateur dealer. Either out to screw you, or didn't know what he was doing. I'd run the other way. It seems, unfortunately, EXTREMELY difficult to find an honest dealer.

BigGreek

<< <i>I think the dealer shouldn't have made the guarantee. I agree with the grade of 64RD. >>



I agree. But I also like the coin. Why not ask the dealer to pay you
15% back rather than take back the coin?

MrEureka

Chazpear - Given the price you paid, whatever the dealer said, I find it hard to believe that he INTENDED to guaranty a 65RD grade. If he refuses a refund, at least consider the possibility of an honest misunderstanding before crying foul.

XpipedreamR

Personally, I'd just keep it and forget about it. Maybe mention it in passing if you want. It looks pretty nice.

ccrdragon

obviously, you were willing to pay the price that the dealer gave you on the coin and take the time to get a TPG opinion on the coin, so neither money nor time are the issue in this case. the only question that really needs answered is -> Do YOU like the coin?!?!?

if the answer is yes, then put it into your collection and move on to the next coin. If the answer is no, then take it back to the dealer and get your money back.

Shamika

Chazpear,

With out a doubt you should keep it. It's a PQ coin in a 64RD slab and PQ coins SHOULD cost more than everyday coins.

Nothing's worse than having coins that are low-end for the grade and if this coin were in a 65 slab (it would probably make it if you sent it in a few more times), it might not bring 65 money if/when you sell.

oreville

Lots of ideas here.

Bottom line is you are in for an extra $20 and a certification fee. Not a big deal in the scheme of life but a annoying amount in a microworld of this coin. Yes, the coin has niice original orange/red skin (the reverse indeed looks very close to MS-65RD) but I am less enamored with the obverse. All in all, an acceptable MS-64 but not a strong PQ one to me.

If you like the dealer then be honest with him. Split the difference at the very least considering you had to pay a slabbing fee on top of it. If he likes working with you then he will want to make you whole. Or better yet $20 in free merchandise or coins in his store. If he doesn't seem to recall or feels that saving $10 or $20 difference is more important then do the following (as he is not the dealer for you in the future):

Say to him ok, I will think about it (after he rejects you==make sure you show no emotion). Then ask him to show you a few coins. Make sure that you express interest in a few of them. Make sure you also have a thick wad of a few $100 bills in your pocket surrounding lots of $10 and $1 bills (make sure it is REAL THICK). Reel him in and then pull out your MS-64RD coin and say. You know, I need to think about this some more, I will have to reevaluate.

You did not burn your bridges but he is now aware of your "concern."

ziggy29

Probably a foolish guarantee at 65 -- but if you still like the coin as a 64 for the price paid, keep it. If not, throw it back.

The bottom line isn't so much the number on the slab. It's pretty much always: Do you like the coin for the price you paid?

coinguy1

Chazpear, the price you were charged for the coin appears to have been fair.

If you truly bought it because you liked it, the fact that it didn't grade out as 65RD doesn't seem like a good reason to dispose of it. If, on the other hand, you bought it because you were hoping for a bargain, consider it an inexpensive lesson learned.

Under the circumstances, I think the right/fair thing to do is keep it or return it, but not try to obtain a more favorable price from the seller.

PerryHall

Go back to the dealer who sold it to you and negotiate a price adjustment. It can't hurt to try.

Chazpear

The opinions really run the gambit on this issue from good to bad, which is what I was looking for. However, it was never intended to question his integrity, ethics, or business practices. I do intend to mention the grade to him and see what he does/says. My guess is that it will be the right thing. At least it does not hurt to try. As mentioned in other posts here it is hard to find a good dealer.

The reason that I brought this up here was to get a feeling of how others might handle this issue and to validate my feelings in the matter; I still like the coin as much now as when I first saw it. Regardless or the grade a TPG assigns to it.

Seeing as how I have done a pretty fair share of business with this dealer and I do not have any hard feelings about this deal. Plus he certainly is not a dick or an amateur (IMHO). On more then one occasion he has steered me in the right direction or pointed out something I did not see that was either a flaw or a high point in a coin. The door has swung both ways in the past as he has cut me some deals as well. I would also agree that I do not mind paying over book for a nice coin. He may have known that the coin probably wouldn’t grade 65, or it was a 10% - 15% chance of making it. If he was more certain then I would expect it would have been priced accordingly.

DMWJR

This is the part I hate about grading services. If you like the coin, don't let their opinion influence how you feel about the coin. It's easy to say, but hard to do once that slab comes back a point or two lower. I have several coins that I will not submit, because I like them and I'm afraid they would come back a point or two lower than what I think they are. I would prefer to keep enjoying the coins the way they are.

Chazpear

Very true, I have a few like that as well. A couple I know would get BB’d for cleaning that I didn’t noticed until long after I got them home and really looked closely at them. One I took a real bath on, call it another installment of tuition at Coin Collecting U. But they are really nice looking coins and have a good home in my 7070.

oreville

Chazpear: Your post makes sense. Your dealer sounds like one of the good guys. He will do right by you now and/or later on. No need to burn bridges and use this as a positive learning experience. Heck,he may be shocked at the grade himself!

By the way, does the obverse look better than appears in the picture here? The coin is magnified size wise. Do you have a smaller picture to show us? I am curious? I might have been more "negative" on the obverse than is warranted.

Chazpear

Here is a link I had to a "Guess the Grade" that I posted for the same coin. The consensus was 64RD. The picture in the post is one I took (scanned) just before I sent it out. Even darker but about the same size. It is in one of the 2x2 plastic Whitmans. I have a couple more at home that are closer to original size that I can post tonight.

Linkage

The color is poorly depicted in the scans of it, as they usually are. There are 2 darker spots on the chin and cheek then one down at the bottom of the hair which looks blueish/purplish under magnification. Other wise it has a very pleasing orange/cooper color to it on both sides.

elwood

Sounds like you paid for a 64RD coin and that's what you got, a 64RD coin. Now, if you had paid 65 money, that would make a BIG difference. If you like the coin then keep it.

streeter

Personally, I'd cut the dealer loose and let him use this technique of closing a sale on his next victim.

Why go back and let him pull something else out of his bag of tricks to use on you the next time? He already knows he's got your number.

topstuf

I think you should wait behind the dealer's shop, grab him, dip him in tar and then dump feathers on him.

He sold you a premium coin at a slight premium price.

ALSO....he made a MISTAKE in his assessment of the grade.

AND.....he hasn't been contacted yet.

Can ANYONE tolerate this abject ABUSE of a customer? I THINK NOT!

After all, he is a DEALER !



Seriously...... The coin could be considered as a fair price for the quality. Or returned as agreed.

HOWEVER..... Doing so could set a precedent and lead to further coin purchases.

ziggy29

Your first tipoff should have been that if this dealer was sure it was a 65RD coin, he would have either (a) priced it closer to 65RD money or (b) slabbed it himself for $30 in order to get another $200-$300 for the coin.

That you paid considerably less than 65RD money for the coin should have led you suspect that you were getting less than a full 65RD-caliber coin.

DMWJR

Your first tipoff should have been that if this dealer was sure it was a 65RD coin, he would have either (a) priced it closer to 65RD money or (b) slabbed it himself for $30 in order to get another $200-$300 for the coin.

That you paid considerably less than 65RD money for the coin should have led you suspect that you were getting less than a full 65RD-caliber coin.

Elcontador

A few others have reiterated my point; you aren't going to get a 5 RD coin for just over 4 RD $ from anyone except for a boludo. I also agree with Mark; I would not try to get any sort of refund from the guy. You paid strong money for a better than average coin for the grade.

As someone else wisely said, it's easier to say than do, but try not to fixate on the number put on the plastic. As you get more into collecting, you will see situations where you have two of the same type coins. Call them coin A and coin B. Coin A is nicer than coin B, but coin B has a higher numerical grade on its slab. I have several nice 19th Century type coins that fit into this category. I sent them for in holder upgrades twice, and have been S.O.L. Sometimes, that's just how it is.

mirabela

Boludo? Traduzcale, por favor.

Chazpear

OK. Let say hypothetically that the dealer picked this up a while ago for cheap or maybe a lot from an estate purchase, whatever. Because I have done a fair amount of business with him, he knows that I like the nice raw MS coins so that I can submit them to a TPG myself, the homemade approach. For mathematical ease, let’s say he paid $50 for said coin. He turns around and sells it to me raw for 64 money which is $100, he just doubled his money and is happy. I send it in to a TPG and it comes back 65 which is valued at $200. I am ecstatic because I just doubled my money (if selling) on my $100 coin. Everyone is happy with smiles and he knows I’ll be back for more business. Now let’s look at the flip side of that coin, no pun intended. It comes back grade as a 64 with a value of $100. He’s happy, I’m happy because I got what I paid for, and I’ll be back to do more business because he treated me right.

Granted there are a number of different ways to look at this. I must admit, the tar and feather approach is somewhat appealing.

Baley

I think you're overthinking this situation.

I'd put the coin in my collection and move on to the next deal.