<< <i>The point is that a self proclaimed amateur can AT 49 coins by using a frying pan all a nice golden color and get them slab. I think its kinda cool he's admitting it here on the boards, same as the thread discussing how to artificially tone coins in the old PCGS rattler holders and then getting them reholder and into the new slabs.
Anything that adds to the education of those that frequent the boards is great IMHO.
Yes, I spent $10K to fry 'em. Keep in mind that I had 100 separate shipments, and many of them included other coins. PCGS would only slab them with one colored coin per shipment. Try two, and they came back in body bags. So the $10K wasn't just for these coins. But I really had to dig deep to try to find enough coins to ship off to slab. Many moderns that came back with grades that were useless. But, nonetheless, I got $10K into it.
Message to Fats: I just saw you toned commem collection. It's nothing less than fantastic. I can only imagine the time and money you have vested in your collection. When I came public with my set, I knew that there would be collectors totally miffed at what I did. People like you with legimate naturally toned commems stand to suffer the most, and to you I apologize. With any luck, my project actually adds value and attraction to coins like yours by simply raising the issue for dialogue. If anyone hasn't yet seen his collection, see his earlier post and attachment.
Its an interesting post, but it reminds me of a quote I always thought meaningful; "People who fake orgasms get what they deserve.........fake orgasms".
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Kaytsok, Its an interesting post, but it reminds me of a quote I always thought meaningful; "People who fake orgasms get what they deserve.........fake orgasms". >>
Yes, but if you're Meg Ryan you can parlay a talented, albeit, fake orgasm into a multi-million dollar movie contract.
If someone can teach me how to reply to a specific message with italics first, I'd appreciate it. But to answer how long it took to build? One year of hard work. Hundreds of hours of labor. Just preparing the submissions alone was a job.
<< <i>If someone can teach me how to reply to a specific message with italics first, I'd appreciate it. But to answer how long it took to build? One year of hard work. Hundreds of hours of labor. Just preparing the submissions alone was a job. >>
<< <i>If someone can teach me how to reply to a specific message with italics first, I'd appreciate it. But to answer how long it took to build? One year of hard work. Hundreds of hours of labor. Just preparing the submissions alone was a job. >>
Highlight the text and hit the "Quote" button. >>
Let's try it. Thanks. By the way, the "hundreds of hours" may be a stretch. Realistically, 100-200 hours of work might be closer to the truth.
Ya know, just a couple of weeks ago I broke down and submitted a batch to PCGS after nearly a year of swearing off any submissions.
One of the coins was a 60 proof Roosie that really is rosey, pink/orange/red both sides. I left it in the sealed cello inside a larger flip, just so they could see it was NT and had come from a recently opened set.
Who wants to bet I get it BB'd?
I sent in several other more "collectable" type coins but I just decided to toss this one in for the heck of it as I've never seen a proof Roosie quite like it anywhere before.
A BB won't surprise me, I halfway expect it. But coupled with this thread........................... well, things that make you go hmmmm.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I didn't like the way the thread started. Most forum members don't like being toyed with. I thought our "favorite" 13 year old had returned once again. But I am glad you came out with all the details Kaytsok and actually opened up a very interesting topic by example.
If you had posted your collection without revealing they were AT, many would have been impressed with the coloring on the coins especially given the implied NT since they were all in PCGS holders. It's quite a feat to accomplish what you have, especially dumping all the money you did into submissions. Revealing the method causes one to question the ability of detecting AT, but all so makes one wonder if it matters when the coins have nice eye appeal. Then the question is - are toned coins worth a premium? There are plenty of people who AT coins and pass them off as NT for a premium. Based on eBay watching, there seems to be people that pay the premium and are never the wiser. If they like the coin, does it matter?
I like some toned coins, especially the golden look like yours. On principle, I would only want NT. Since you managed to get them all slabbed it makes one wonder how I would ever know if I was buying a slabbed NT coin or an AT that slipped through.
Perhaps some more science needs to enter the TPG market when it comes to detecting AT vs NT. (I wish more science was involved in overall TPG - but that's another topic)
Thanks for posting your collection. Any chance you can get a better full size picture online of the whole lot?
-Bob collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens. The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
kaytsok, my question to you---why on earth would you spend $10,000 and 200 hours on this when you could have just come here and asked? Within 5 minutes you would have had the same answer for free. I can only imagine the collection you could have had with that $10,000 well spent. JMHO
<< <i>Perhaps some more science needs to enter the TPG market when it comes to detecting AT vs NT. (I wish more science was involved in overall TPG - but that's another topic) >>
<< <i>I think somebody should post a question with a link to this thread over if the Q&A forum.
Russ, NCNE >>
Sounds like a job for the Coin Ferengi to me.
"Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
First, thanks for any positive comments. Second, I will try to get one of my IT people to help me get a better pic. I'm also an amateur on this type of thing (pics), so please be patient. Earlier on this thread, someone was willing to help with the pics. If that offer is still out there, and someone can slowly/patiently walk me through getting better pics to them, I'm grateful for your assistance. I plan to put the individual pics on the Registry Set website in the next few days/weeks. As for the Q/A forum, I suspect David Hall is aware of this thread and my set. He is probably not very happy with me. But, PCGS serves a vital need in this business/hobby and I mean no harm to them. I encourage someone to take try to get David's comments. But I'm already in hot water. Finally, as to "why" this was all done in the first place. It started off harmlessly, just reading an article on heating proof coins for color. I did, it came out nice, I submitted it, and it got slabbed. After trying it a few times, I had a moderate degree of success. Then the registry set idea came to me. With luck, perseverence, time and money, I was able to get the set 100% complete. I will never sell this set. I believe there is nothing else like it and probably never will be. The money I have into the project is not the issue. But I plan to exhibit it when possible and anyone trustworthy willing to help, I welcome the opportunity and help. Also, an interesting FYI: if you take one of my colored coins, cool it, put it into houshold ammonia for one minute, the color goes back to the original untoned state. Then rinse it well, dry carefully, put it back into the pan, reheat for 5 minutes, it goes right back to the golden color. Amazing.....You can do this over and over.....
I'm still working on pics. I don't have my set back from Kansas City yet, but I thought I'd try scanning some of the coins with a lower resolution that did not make my collection. I've got an additional 50 coins or so PCGS slabbed AT either doubles or lower grades. Here are 9 that did not make The Golden Silver Collection.
Maybe this will help cool the rage for toned coins. I think there are a lot of people that know how to artificially tone coins and make them look real. With the proper equipment one can duplicate natural toning fairly quickly, and I believe there is a lot of that going on. I don't think I would ever buy a "monster toned" coin of any kind - slabbed or not. Those are fairly easy to make - just place a piece of velvet cloth over the coin - put them in an envelope or small box and set it in a sunny window for a few months. I know this works because it first happened to me by accident. I brought a proof coin that came in a velvet lined box and after a while it got moved into a storage room under a window. I didn't look at it for several months, but when I did it had deep bluish/red toning around the obverse edge and the reverse was completely toned. That was a case of natural toning, but anyone could tone whole batches of Morgan dollars that way. The process would be natural so the coins would be NT - don't know if they would all grade or not, but it's likely at least some would.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Perhaps there's no mystery at all. Perhaps, the individual is a clever user of Photoshop and these coins are not as they appear in the pictures. Perhaps, they are, and the indivual lives near the old Chernobyl factory and a few extra curies are affecting both the individual and the coin. I like the comment about cuing up the twighlight zone music.
Seriously though, if the individual in wuestion has a good story, and wants me to support it, for a possible magazine article, thean at least TELL the story.
<< <i>Perhaps there's no mystery at all. Perhaps, the individual is a clever user of Photoshop and these coins are not as they appear in the pictures. Perhaps, they are, and the indivual lives near the old Chernobyl factory and a few extra curies are affecting both the individual and the coin. I like the comment about cuing up the twighlight zone music.
Seriously though, if the individual in wuestion has a good story, and wants me to support it, for a possible magazine article, thean at least TELL the story.
Skerke >>
Hi there. Most of the story is already in this thread. Hopefully, you can review it and let me know what you think. If you have a common commemorative around, proof dollar, maybe a Constitution, any one, raw.....get it. Go get a frying pan. Put it on the highest heat on your stove. Nothing else except the coin. In 4 minutes or so, it turns golden. Take it off any way you can. It's very hot. I like to use a soup spoon. Put it on an old plate to cool for 1/2 hour or so. If you can, do it now, and tell me if it works.
<< <i>Seriously though, if the individual in wuestion has a good story, and wants me to support it, for a possible magazine article, thean at least TELL the story. >>
If he told the whole story here, then he wouldn't be able to sell it to a magazine.
I wasn' t trying to SELL it to a magazine. I just thought the story was interesting enough to warrant some publicity. But I've shared it with NN and Coin World and thus far, they are not interested enough. So I guess you are right....it's not a juicy enough story.
Another random thought. I recently just came back to coins after a long hiatus. I tried collecting as a kid. Now I'm seeing the good the bad and the ugly of this hobby/investment/pass time. Ok. Why is it a mystery that a coin can be artifically tones, I've read in numerous articles and books that people do it. Why is it a mystery that PCGS would grade the coin? Are they not grading the coin itself, details, strike.
I'm just waiting for the day that a some couterfiting ring in China or India is exposed making perfect replica coins and smuggling them abroad. So I'd like ot be the first to say, this is so possible, that this is the real future problem, that will make artifical seem like a distant wish.
Not a doomsayer, just disapointed that someone would take the time enrgy and resources to do this. Should have put the 10k into your kids college fund. A much better investment and use of time. So if I got this right the whole point of this thread was to say : Peopl ecan counterfit things that fool even the experts, and I thought I had a master grasp of the obvious. Next up, all politicans aren't completely honest, a future thread.
So if I got this right the whole point of this thread was to say : Peopl ecan counterfit things that fool even the experts, and I thought I had a master grasp of the obvious
My thoughts too, except that it had to be dramatically coy over the course of several threads.....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>Another random thought. I recently just came back to coins after a long hiatus. I tried collecting as a kid. Now I'm seeing the good the bad and the ugly of this hobby/investment/pass time. Ok. Why is it a mystery that a coin can be artifically tones, I've read in numerous articles and books that people do it. Why is it a mystery that PCGS would grade the coin? Are they not grading the coin itself, details, strike.
I'm just waiting for the day that a some couterfiting ring in China or India is exposed making perfect replica coins and smuggling them abroad. So I'd like ot be the first to say, this is so possible, that this is the real future problem, that will make artifical seem like a distant wish.
Not a doomsayer, just disapointed that someone would take the time enrgy and resources to do this. Should have put the 10k into your kids college fund. A much better investment and use of time. So if I got this right the whole point of this thread was to say : Peopl ecan counterfit things that fool even the experts, and I thought I had a master grasp of the obvious. Next up, all politicans aren't completely honest, a future thread. >>
PCGS says that they will not slab even questionable coins. It comes back, "quesitonable color" or "altered surface". So they should NOT be slabbing these coins. As I said earlier, I had no ill intentions in the beginning. I just read an article by the president of NGC that said heating proof coins turns them a color. So I tried it. It came out nice, so I sent it in, not really believing it would get encapsulated. But it did. And it just snowballed. As for college. I have enough saved for them both to get them thru private schools.
Great thanks for the info. You did a fine investigative job. I commend you, I hope you still like the coins and feel the investment was worth the effort. I'm sure your story will be told one day, and I look forward to reading it in the numismatist , or one of the coin rags. Best of luck with your future endeavors in this regards.
<< <i>Great thanks for the info. You did a fine investigative job. I commend you, I hope you still like the coins and feel the investment was worth the effort. I'm sure your story will be told one day, and I look forward to reading it in the numismatist , or one of the coin rags. Best of luck with your future endeavors in this regards. >>
Thanks. The attaboys go a long way. With negative posts, I question myself. So the support goes a long way. Thanks again.
Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS.
21959492 1893-S S$1 USA Cleaning
Date Received: 04/12/2005 Date Shipped: 04/15/2005
Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS.
Post a pic of the 93-s- let those that know see if you were flamed by the 'crew' or maybe it was cleaned. don't speculate that you have been 'fried' by PCGS just yet.
I've read the thread- and tried your little experiment on a crappy proof that I had- it worked- but i don't like the color- want to get soemthing more into color? rinse it in whiskey- gives it a darker tone. I wasted bad whiskey not the good stuff.
<< <i>Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS.
Post a pic of the 93-s- let those that know see if you were flamed by the 'crew' or maybe it was cleaned. don't speculate that you have been 'fried' by PCGS just yet.
I've read the thread- and tried your little experiment on a crappy proof that I had- it worked- but i don't like the color- want to get soemthing more into color? rinse it in whiskey- gives it a darker tone. I wasted bad whiskey not the good stuff. >>
Thanks for the whiskey tip. I'll try it. Also, I had many coins I fried that didn't come out too nice. Blotchy, etc. So the end result wasn't always great. But the concept is there.
I'm still working on getting better pics, but here is the 1893-s for now.
Most everyone here knows that a few AT coins get slabbed by accident. A good many know that there are more than a few accidental slabbings. A few knew that there was a good chance that the slabbings were not
<< <i>accidental >>
.
The whole idea of being able to determine AT vs NT is somewhat of a joke. TPN's thread on detection not withstanding. It is impossible to determine the intent of the coin's owner when the coin got placed on the shelf in the containter it happened to be in where it lay for 3-6 months. A frying pan is more dramatic but still it is just a matter of intent that determines AT vs NT.
Frankly there are some beautiful toners out there but most are just plain ugly in my opinion. I don't care where this goes, I'm just glad I prefer to collect nice bright white MS and proof coins
Most everyone here knows that a few AT coins get slabbed by accident. A good many know that there are more than a few accidental slabbings. A few knew that there was a good chance that the slabbings were not
<< <i>accidental >>
.
The whole idea of being able to determine AT vs NT is somewhat of a joke. TPN's thread on detection not withstanding. It is impossible to determine the intent of the coin's owner when the coin got placed on the shelf in the containter it happened to be in where it lay for 3-6 months. A frying pan is more dramatic but still it is just a matter of intent that determines AT vs NT.
Frankly there are some beautiful toners out there but most are just plain ugly in my opinion. I don't care where this goes, I'm just glad I prefer to collect nice bright white MS and proof coins >>
Where does one draw the line between 4 minutes in a frying pan and 6 months on a shelf? Intentional on a shelf or accidently on shelf? These are questions that don't have good answers. So the comment of "The whole idea of being able to determine AT vr NT is somewhat of a joke" seems right on to me. That is why I believe the questions posed about toning will be around forever. The same with slabbing. It's been postulated that slabbing ruined the "hobby" of coin collecting forever. Slabbing started to stop unscrupulous dealers from ripping off investors. But while TPG helped solve this problem, it brought about other problems such as subjectivity of grade and dishonest people on many levels. So the slabbing discussion, like toning, will endure forever. When you combine these two issues, slabbing and toning, you have a real mess. And The Golden Silver Collection will likely start a new chapter in the story.
If I put a coin in an album with the hope and INTENT to tone it and it sits there and becomes beautifully toned whether it was in the album for 10 years or 2 years its NOT AT.
AT takes more than just a "gee I hope my coin becomes really nicely toned" thought in the owner's head. It requires something more than placing the coin in a window sill in an envelope or an album. This is how coins are stored. Yes there are coins stored in the windows of coin shops everywhere in the USA. And many do get toned over a period of time by exposure to the heat and sun.
AT requires a positive act beyond mere passivity.For example, adding chemicals to the surface, sticking the coin in a potato, placing it next to a waterheater in your damp basement, taping it to the tailpipe of your car, sticking it in the oven, blowing smoke on it, heating it up, sticking it in an envelope with match heads, ect.
How can putting a coin on a shelf for 3-6 months be called AT? It cant.
AT is like a crime. If I think about robbing a bank, but never do it. I'm guilty of nothing. In order to be convicted of bank robbery, you have to take a positive step or an act in the furtherance of the crime. Writing a "give me the money note" while standing in line, putting your hand in your pocket like a gun, wearing a ski mask as you walk in, now you have more than just a passive thought. Even joking with a teller about robbing the bank will get you a nice sit down with the FBI.
Replication IMHO is the real definition of AT. Here, in this example, we are shown an easily replicated technique for turning silver modern commems and bullion a nice golden color that can be done by anyone with a frying pan and a stove.
If I put a coin in an album with the hope and INTENT to tone it and it sits there and becomes beautifully toned whether it was in the album for 10 years or 2 years its NOT AT.
AT takes more than just a "gee I hope my coin becomes really nicely toned" thought in the owner's head. It requires something more than placing the coin in a window sill in an envelope or an album. This is how coins are stored. Yes there are coins stored in the windows of coin shops everywhere in the USA. And many do get toned over a period of time by exposure to the heat and sun.
AT requires a positive act beyond mere passivity.For example, adding chemicals to the surface, sticking the coin in a potato, placing it next to a waterheater in your damp basement, taping it to the tailpipe of your car, sticking it in the oven, blowing smoke on it, heating it up, sticking it in an envelope with match heads, ect.
How can putting a coin on a shelf for 3-6 months be called AT? It cant.
AT is like a crime. If I think about robbing a bank, but never do it. I'm guilty of nothing. In order to be convicted of bank robbery, you have to take a positive step or an act in the furtherance of the crime. Writing a "give me the money note" while standing in line, putting your hand in your pocket like a gun, wearing a ski mask as you walk in, now you have more than just a passive thought. Even joking with a teller about robbing the bank will get you a nice sit down with the FBI.
Replication IMHO is the real definition of AT. Here, in this example, we are shown an easily replicated technique for turning silver modern commems and bullion a nice golden color that can be done by anyone with a frying pan and a stove.
Thats my definition of AT.
TPN >>
Well said. It sounds like maybe TPG should slab everything with color. It would be impossible for them to determine "intent". Maybe they should just reject for damage and cleaning?
<< <i>Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS. >>
If PCGS is BB'ing coins just because they don't like the submitter, they're even more petty than even I had previously believed.
Frankly, I think much (not all) of the paranoia over AT is excessive. To me it rates a big "so what", usually. But admittedly, I mostly buy and sell cheap stuff.
Wonder why this advanced toning methodology has not been featured where it would be even more apropos, the Toned Coin forum? Surely would generate some lively discussion there.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Comments
My 1993 Looks almost as good?
Jeffs
<< <i>The point is that a self proclaimed amateur can AT 49 coins by using a frying pan all a nice golden color and get them slab. I think its kinda cool he's admitting it here on the boards, same as the thread discussing how to artificially tone coins in the old PCGS rattler holders and then getting them reholder and into the new slabs.
Anything that adds to the education of those that frequent the boards is great IMHO.
TPN >>
BINGO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
TPN
Its an interesting post, but it reminds me of a quote I always thought meaningful; "People who fake orgasms get what they deserve.........fake orgasms".
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Kaytsok, Its an interesting post, but it reminds me of a quote I always thought meaningful; "People who fake orgasms get what they deserve.........fake orgasms".
Yes, but if you're Meg Ryan you can parlay a talented, albeit, fake orgasm into a multi-million dollar movie contract.
peacockcoins
But to answer how long it took to build? One year of hard work. Hundreds of hours of labor. Just preparing the submissions alone was a job.
<< <i>If someone can teach me how to reply to a specific message with italics first, I'd appreciate it.
But to answer how long it took to build? One year of hard work. Hundreds of hours of labor. Just preparing the submissions alone was a job. >>
Highlight the text and hit the "Quote" button.
<< <i>
<< <i>If someone can teach me how to reply to a specific message with italics first, I'd appreciate it.
But to answer how long it took to build? One year of hard work. Hundreds of hours of labor. Just preparing the submissions alone was a job. >>
Highlight the text and hit the "Quote" button.
Let's try it. Thanks. By the way, the "hundreds of hours" may be a stretch. Realistically, 100-200 hours of work might be closer to the truth.
One of the coins was a 60 proof Roosie that really is rosey, pink/orange/red both sides. I left it in the sealed cello inside a larger flip, just so they could see it was NT and had come from a recently opened set.
Who wants to bet I get it BB'd?
I sent in several other more "collectable" type coins but I just decided to toss this one in for the heck of it as I've never seen a proof Roosie quite like it anywhere before.
A BB won't surprise me, I halfway expect it. But coupled with this thread........................... well, things that make you go hmmmm.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
If you had posted your collection without revealing they were AT, many would have been impressed with the coloring on the coins especially given the implied NT since they were all in PCGS holders. It's quite a feat to accomplish what you have, especially dumping all the money you did into submissions. Revealing the method causes one to question the ability of detecting AT, but all so makes one wonder if it matters when the coins have nice eye appeal. Then the question is - are toned coins worth a premium? There are plenty of people who AT coins and pass them off as NT for a premium. Based on eBay watching, there seems to be people that pay the premium and are never the wiser. If they like the coin, does it matter?
I like some toned coins, especially the golden look like yours. On principle, I would only want NT. Since you managed to get them all slabbed it makes one wonder how I would ever know if I was buying a slabbed NT coin or an AT that slipped through.
Perhaps some more science needs to enter the TPG market when it comes to detecting AT vs NT. (I wish more science was involved in overall TPG - but that's another topic)
Thanks for posting your collection. Any chance you can get a better full size picture online of the whole lot?
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
The Low Budget Y2K Registry Set
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Perhaps some more science needs to enter the TPG market when it comes to detecting AT vs NT. (I wish more science was involved in overall TPG - but that's another topic) >>
Perhaps you missed my earlier thread --
FINALLY -- a scientific test to determine AT vs. NT!
TPN
<< <i>I think somebody should post a question with a link to this thread over if the Q&A forum.
Russ, NCNE >>
Sounds like a job for the Coin Ferengi to me.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>This thread is downright awesome...in a good way and a bad way. >>
I think everyone, including me, feels the same way.
Jeffs
Wow, that is a nice toned proof ASE.
HJP
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Seriously though, if the individual in wuestion has a good story, and wants me to support it, for a possible magazine article, thean at least TELL the story.
Skerke
<< <i>Perhaps there's no mystery at all. Perhaps, the individual is a clever user of Photoshop and these coins are not as they appear in the pictures. Perhaps, they are, and the indivual lives near the old Chernobyl factory and a few extra curies are affecting both the individual and the coin. I like the comment about cuing up the twighlight zone music.
Seriously though, if the individual in wuestion has a good story, and wants me to support it, for a possible magazine article, thean at least TELL the story.
Skerke >>
Hi there. Most of the story is already in this thread. Hopefully, you can review it and let me know what you think. If you have a common commemorative around, proof dollar, maybe a Constitution, any one, raw.....get it. Go get a frying pan. Put it on the highest heat on your stove. Nothing else except the coin. In 4 minutes or so, it turns golden. Take it off any way you can. It's very hot. I like to use a soup spoon. Put it on an old plate to cool for 1/2 hour or so. If you can, do it now, and tell me if it works.
<< <i>Seriously though, if the individual in wuestion has a good story, and wants me to support it, for a possible magazine article, thean at least TELL the story. >>
If he told the whole story here, then he wouldn't be able to sell it to a magazine.
Still, great thread!
I'm just waiting for the day that a some couterfiting ring in China or India is exposed making perfect replica coins and smuggling them abroad. So I'd like ot be the first to say, this is so possible, that this is the real future problem, that will make artifical seem like a distant wish.
Not a doomsayer, just disapointed that someone would take the time enrgy and resources to do this. Should have put the 10k into your kids college fund. A much better investment and use of time. So if I got this right the whole point of this thread was to say : Peopl ecan counterfit things that fool even the experts, and I thought I had a master grasp of the obvious. Next up, all politicans aren't completely honest, a future thread.
My thoughts too, except that it had to be dramatically coy over the course of several threads.....
<< <i>Another random thought. I recently just came back to coins after a long hiatus. I tried collecting as a kid. Now I'm seeing the good the bad and the ugly of this hobby/investment/pass time. Ok. Why is it a mystery that a coin can be artifically tones, I've read in numerous articles and books that people do it. Why is it a mystery that PCGS would grade the coin? Are they not grading the coin itself, details, strike.
I'm just waiting for the day that a some couterfiting ring in China or India is exposed making perfect replica coins and smuggling them abroad. So I'd like ot be the first to say, this is so possible, that this is the real future problem, that will make artifical seem like a distant wish.
Not a doomsayer, just disapointed that someone would take the time enrgy and resources to do this. Should have put the 10k into your kids college fund. A much better investment and use of time. So if I got this right the whole point of this thread was to say : Peopl ecan counterfit things that fool even the experts, and I thought I had a master grasp of the obvious. Next up, all politicans aren't completely honest, a future thread. >>
PCGS says that they will not slab even questionable coins. It comes back, "quesitonable color" or "altered surface". So they should NOT be slabbing these coins. As I said earlier, I had no ill intentions in the beginning. I just read an article by the president of NGC that said heating proof coins turns them a color. So I tried it. It came out nice, so I sent it in, not really believing it would get encapsulated. But it did. And it just snowballed. As for college. I have enough saved for them both to get them thru private schools.
<< <i>Great thanks for the info. You did a fine investigative job. I commend you, I hope you still like the coins and feel the investment was worth the effort. I'm sure your story will be told one day, and I look forward to reading it in the numismatist , or one of the coin rags. Best of luck with your future endeavors in this regards. >>
Thanks. The attaboys go a long way. With negative posts, I question myself. So the support goes a long way. Thanks again.
Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS.
21959492 1893-S S$1 USA Cleaning
Date Received: 04/12/2005
Date Shipped: 04/15/2005
Post a pic of the 93-s- let those that know see if you were flamed by the 'crew' or maybe it was cleaned. don't speculate that you have been 'fried' by PCGS just yet.
I've read the thread- and tried your little experiment on a crappy proof that I had- it worked- but i don't like the color- want to get soemthing more into color? rinse it in whiskey- gives it a darker tone. I wasted bad whiskey not the good stuff.
<< <i>Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS.
Post a pic of the 93-s- let those that know see if you were flamed by the 'crew' or maybe it was cleaned. don't speculate that you have been 'fried' by PCGS just yet.
I've read the thread- and tried your little experiment on a crappy proof that I had- it worked- but i don't like the color- want to get soemthing more into color? rinse it in whiskey- gives it a darker tone. I wasted bad whiskey not the good stuff. >>
Thanks for the whiskey tip. I'll try it. Also, I had many coins I fried that didn't come out too nice. Blotchy, etc. So the end result wasn't always great. But the concept is there.
I'm still working on getting better pics, but here is the 1893-s for now.
Most everyone here knows that a few AT coins get slabbed by accident. A good many know that there are more than a few accidental slabbings. A few knew that there was a good chance that the slabbings were not
<< <i>accidental >>
.
The whole idea of being able to determine AT vs NT is somewhat of a joke. TPN's thread on detection not withstanding. It is impossible to determine the intent of the coin's owner when the coin got placed on the shelf in the containter it happened to be in where it lay for 3-6 months. A frying pan is more dramatic but still it is just a matter of intent that determines AT vs NT.
Frankly there are some beautiful toners out there but most are just plain ugly in my opinion. I don't care where this goes, I'm just glad I prefer to collect nice bright white MS and proof coins
Coin Show Schedules - www.CoinShowDates.com
<< <i>What a mess.
Most everyone here knows that a few AT coins get slabbed by accident. A good many know that there are more than a few accidental slabbings. A few knew that there was a good chance that the slabbings were not
<< <i>accidental >>
.
The whole idea of being able to determine AT vs NT is somewhat of a joke. TPN's thread on detection not withstanding. It is impossible to determine the intent of the coin's owner when the coin got placed on the shelf in the containter it happened to be in where it lay for 3-6 months. A frying pan is more dramatic but still it is just a matter of intent that determines AT vs NT.
Frankly there are some beautiful toners out there but most are just plain ugly in my opinion. I don't care where this goes, I'm just glad I prefer to collect nice bright white MS and proof coins
Where does one draw the line between 4 minutes in a frying pan and 6 months on a shelf? Intentional on a shelf or accidently on shelf? These are questions that don't have good answers. So the comment of "The whole idea of being able to determine AT vr NT is somewhat of a joke" seems right on to me. That is why I believe the questions posed about toning will be around forever. The same with slabbing. It's been postulated that slabbing ruined the "hobby" of coin collecting forever. Slabbing started to stop unscrupulous dealers from ripping off investors. But while TPG helped solve this problem, it brought about other problems such as subjectivity of grade and dishonest people on many levels. So the slabbing discussion, like toning, will endure forever. When you combine these two issues, slabbing and toning, you have a real mess. And The Golden Silver Collection will likely start a new chapter in the story.
If I put a coin in an album with the hope and INTENT to tone it and it sits there and becomes beautifully toned whether it was in the album for 10 years or 2 years its NOT AT.
AT takes more than just a "gee I hope my coin becomes really nicely toned" thought in the owner's head. It requires something more than placing the coin in a window sill in an envelope or an album. This is how coins are stored. Yes there are coins stored in the windows of coin shops everywhere in the USA. And many do get toned over a period of time by exposure to the heat and sun.
AT requires a positive act beyond mere passivity.For example, adding chemicals to the surface, sticking the coin in a potato, placing it next to a waterheater in your damp basement, taping it to the tailpipe of your car, sticking it in the oven, blowing smoke on it, heating it up, sticking it in an envelope with match heads, ect.
How can putting a coin on a shelf for 3-6 months be called AT? It cant.
AT is like a crime. If I think about robbing a bank, but never do it. I'm guilty of nothing. In order to be convicted of bank robbery, you have to take a positive step or an act in the furtherance of the crime. Writing a "give me the money note" while standing in line, putting your hand in your pocket like a gun, wearing a ski mask as you walk in, now you have more than just a passive thought. Even joking with a teller about robbing the bank will get you a nice sit down with the FBI.
Replication IMHO is the real definition of AT. Here, in this example, we are shown an easily replicated technique for turning silver modern commems and bullion a nice golden color that can be done by anyone with a frying pan and a stove.
Thats my definition of AT.
TPN
<< <i>All this intent crap ......
If I put a coin in an album with the hope and INTENT to tone it and it sits there and becomes beautifully toned whether it was in the album for 10 years or 2 years its NOT AT.
AT takes more than just a "gee I hope my coin becomes really nicely toned" thought in the owner's head. It requires something more than placing the coin in a window sill in an envelope or an album. This is how coins are stored. Yes there are coins stored in the windows of coin shops everywhere in the USA. And many do get toned over a period of time by exposure to the heat and sun.
AT requires a positive act beyond mere passivity.For example, adding chemicals to the surface, sticking the coin in a potato, placing it next to a waterheater in your damp basement, taping it to the tailpipe of your car, sticking it in the oven, blowing smoke on it, heating it up, sticking it in an envelope with match heads, ect.
How can putting a coin on a shelf for 3-6 months be called AT? It cant.
AT is like a crime. If I think about robbing a bank, but never do it. I'm guilty of nothing. In order to be convicted of bank robbery, you have to take a positive step or an act in the furtherance of the crime. Writing a "give me the money note" while standing in line, putting your hand in your pocket like a gun, wearing a ski mask as you walk in, now you have more than just a passive thought. Even joking with a teller about robbing the bank will get you a nice sit down with the FBI.
Replication IMHO is the real definition of AT. Here, in this example, we are shown an easily replicated technique for turning silver modern commems and bullion a nice golden color that can be done by anyone with a frying pan and a stove.
Thats my definition of AT.
TPN >>
Well said. It sounds like maybe TPG should slab everything with color. It would be impossible for them to determine "intent". Maybe they should just reject for damage and cleaning?
<< <i>It sounds like maybe TPG should slab everything with color >>
ANACS already does.
TPN
<< <i>Update for all: it appears that I have really killed my relationship with PCGS. I sent an 1893-S Morgan for slabbing. Problem free, in my opinion. Either way, it just got rejected by PCGS. Looks like I've sent in my last submission to PCGS. >>
If PCGS is BB'ing coins just because they don't like the submitter, they're even more petty than even I had previously believed.
Coin Show Schedules - www.CoinShowDates.com
And I think the fried commems are purty.
Frankly, I think much (not all) of the paranoia over AT is excessive. To me it rates a big "so what", usually. But admittedly, I mostly buy and sell cheap stuff.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."