Speared Buffalo

homerunhall

What does everyone think about the new "Speared Buffalo" variety? It's kind of on the line, so to speak. The line thru the Buffalo is definitely there, but it is a little weak.

Should we recognize this variety?

Thanks for the input,

David

MJH

Why Not.
Just like A Vam Variety.

p8nt

Recognize it and put it on the holder AFTER I buy mine But I dont think it should be required for registry basic registry sets.

XpipedreamR

Well, I guess it is a variety, but I think it's a little iffy in terms of its significance.

I'd rather see a Spearmint Buffalo.

Blade

I like it - really interesting and I don't think the current mint's quality control lets many of these errors slip through. I would put it on the slab as a variety.

pharmer

First things first, you still haven't gotten to many cherrypicker's varieties, or many major rpm's, or many major ddo's. With the former ANACS guy on board, and many of us with nice varieties in your slabs but without attribution, seems like that should be the next order of business.

Edited to add: the bison is a die gouge, just interestingly placed. Since when does PCGS, of all services, recognize die gouges? Is the pissing minuteman next? Give me a break.

RYK

Yes. It's in the same category of the Wisconsin quarter except that it is less likely to be deliberate.

NoGvmnt

AAaaaaaaaa, what the hey, ya recognize first strikes that aren' first strikes. Might as well just keep goin'.

Jim

NumisOxide

Yes, I agree. I think it will add much more interest to the new nickels. Also, varieties are interesting to collect.

ar18

If I send one in, maybe I'll gt in back next year. Of coase they will sell for 5 bucks in MS-67,so I really don't care.

FullStepJeffs

I think it should be given an error designation, but right after you recognize all the other DDO's, RPM's, etc within the Jefferson Series... I know you've already stated it's in the works, but just putting the "Things to Do" list together for ya.

Secondly, any news on the poll for the Jefferson collectors of when to end the 65 to present set? When should we expect it to arrive in our email?

Steve

Wolf359

No. Neat, but as you say "not quite there".

JRocco

I agree that if you go in that direction, than you have to open the door up to a lot of other varieties. I was suprised when you labeled the high leaf/low leaf varieties. When there are bold RPM's like this 53D and this 68D Lincoln's, why won't you put these on the label as a variety?

AC7DX

No....but like "no Gvmnt" said...ya did it with the bogus First Strike stuff................and dont forget the California "Halo" quarter

NoGvmnt

Rocco, is that 68 really an RPM? Theentire date looks shifted to the right.

Jim

Smitty79

I think PCGS should recognize the speared buff as well as the Ghost W Silver Eagle mentioned in this thread.

JRocco

Hey Jim- I believe what you see in the pic is on the master die. There does not look to be any true doubling with the coin in hand, but one heck of a nice RPM.

Neptune

Thanks for the reply David - just thought I'd throw in this in:

you can read more comments here:

previous thread about bison errors

and while your at it - check out this auction that has THIRTEEN HUNDRED HITS! (you can view hits at bottom of auction page) - Unbelievable!!!!!!and with over 100 'Watchers'.

Let the masses speak. This looks like peaking interest to me!

Speared Bison error auction on eBay

The above link is NOT to advertise item, but to point out that thirteen hundred hits is a LOT of hits - and a LOT of interest. eBay sets a cookie, so repeat viewers by same person are NOT counted. Try it - you'll see.

Photos of error can be seen here:

VarietyNickels.com


Xpipe:

Well, I guess it is a variety, but I think it's a little iffy in terms of its significance.

'Significance' is determined by' interest' - and what people like to collect, and there is no doubt that a lot of people are 'interested'. The buffalo on coins has always been a very popular item. This one will continue to be IMHO. Proof: Look at all of the problems that the US Mint is having getting the Bison nickels to customers, and the problems that a lot of people are having even getting these from banks. Some folks can, but others aren't able to. Look at eBay for interest/significance on these mint rolls already! People are already hoarding these things.

hiyosilver

<<Should we recognize this variety?>>






Manuel

Smitty79

<< <i>'Significance' is determined by' interest' - and what people like to collect, and there is no doubt that a lot of people are 'interested'. The buffalo on coins has always been a very popular item. This one will continue to be IMHO. Proof: Look at all of the problems that the US Mint is having getting the Bison nickels to customers, and the problems that a lot of people are having even getting these from banks. Some folks can, but others aren't able to. Look at eBay for interest/significance on these mint rolls already! People are already hoarding these things. >>



I agree, interest for the speared buff is bound to be high, especially with error collectors and fans of the original buff nickel.

michael

a cheap shot in my opinion and doesnot advance a services creditibility in my minds eye

as there are many mint made varieties that are more important and historically significant like the obverse cancelled die 1878-cc quarter and these are not regonized as such

a simple light die gouge is not a variety and doesnot make the coin a variety

so i say no

RELLA

I would take a "wait and see" attitude on the Speared Buffalo...I personally don't think it's worthy of its own PCGS number at this time when held up against a great number of very nice die varieties (CPG listed and otherwise) that are currently only attributed under your "Mint Error" service...or not at all.

JRocco shows pictures of two nice RPMs that can been seen with the naked eye...these and many others in this series alone are at least as pronounced (or more pronounced) as the RPMs that are already recognized by PCGS in the Buffalo nickel series.

I know there are a great number of collectors in this series who are very interested not only in a broad expansion of PCGS recognized varieties...but also in any recognition and attribution of varieties outside of the scope of those listed in the CPG. I'm aware that there are a number of logistical problems involved with anything above and beyond modest expansion, and that there are additional problems of competing attribution systems and truly accurate attribution once one ventures beyond the CPG; but these are not insurmountable problems in my opinion. I would be happy to discuss this topic in more detail at any time.



I stated my personal opinion on the "Speared Buffalo" above, but my overall thought is to let the market decide. I'm not all that crazy about overpolished die varieties like the 1922 Plain Lincoln and the 1937-D 3-Legged Buffalo; but the market has accepted these as desired varieties, and it isn't my place to tell other people what they should collect. Just don't overlook the fact that PCGS has a waiting market in a huge number of varieties that are already established and accepted by collectors.

RELLA

Edited for clarity and to correct a spelling error.

Hoot

It's a die gouge and nothing more, so I say it's fine to talk about it, but the PMM is just as worthy and not formally recognized by PCGS and really goes to show the worth of the error. This is basically a worthless attribution, although it can be trivial fun. I'd say do without the formal designation. Let CONECA handle it.

Hoot

CarlWohlforth

I'm with my buds, Michael and Hoot...

As long as they don't disown me.

Add more popular Morgan VAMs, Jefferson Varieties, and other more significant errors first...

TUMUSS

I am not real interested in this "variety", and such do not have a strong opinion either way. I am, however, anxious for PCGS to attribute Morgan VAM's.

clackamas

David,

I am neutral. It is cool, especially given that Bison were once hunted by spear and this looks spear like. Another "new" variety to be found by the public does help the hobby in the short run. I think the State quarter program can be partially thanked for todays market. The 3 legged Buff and 22 no D are just from worn/over polished dies and they are popular and recognized, however many doubled dies are not recognized from many different series. Flip a coin?

Brian

Neptune

Add more popular Morgan VAMs, Jefferson Varieties, and other more significant errors first...


This IS a Jefferson 'die variant'.

what denotes 'popularity' and 'significance' - 'ownership'?
It appears so by some of the replies on this thread.

I would also like to refer some people to this thread posted a few days ago:

previous thread

Monstavet

I think they are interesting. If I find one, I will keep it. I might even buy one. The Jefferson series is pretty lacking in major "varieties." But still, I don't know. I think I would let it run its course for now. It was done for the Wisconsin quarter, so I guess this is pretty similar, but where do you draw the line? Neat, but should not be a mandatory part of the series. As others have stated, there are many examples of more significant varieties that have stood the test of time and have yet to be recognized. So, first things first.

fcloud

If high and low leaf Wisconsin quarters are done, then I say these nickels should be done, too. They are all die gouges with some extra interest.

Cameonut

I agree - on the line - but I don't think it should make the variety category (at least for now).

kranky

There are plenty of well-known varieties that should be recognized before this one. And the fact that it's a die gouge minimizes the importance in my opinion - I'd feel differently if it was a doubled die or RPM. That's not to say the coin isn't interesting but I don't think it merits recognition. I agree with the comparisons to the PMM.

Outhaul

Hmm...I always thought "Die Variety" referred to an intentional change in the devices themselves in order to achieve a specific appearance or correct a problem in a design. Die gouges are not die varieties, they are damage. I'm not saying that you shouldn't attribute this on the label, just don't call it what it isn't.

Cheers,

Bob

Longacre

I don't think it rises to the level of a variety. Let's not cheapen the PCGS brand by recognizing such an insignificant error.

JrGMan2004

Sure... go for it... kinda like the Wounded Eagle on the Sac$

Cam40

we need to examine that spear and see if we can figure out who threw it.

INXS

I dont care for the name "Speared Buffalo", unless the spear was thrown from a plane or the hunter was hiding in a foxhole I cant see a "Speared Buffalo". As far as attributing I think like others have already said there are other varieties that should come first.

xbob

My opinion is that since you recognized the exta leaf Wisconsins, than this is just as legitimate. However, I would rather see PCGS just verify and attribute coins to already recognized die variety cataloging systems out there (VAM, FS, CONECA, etc...) and include that on the slabs label (like ANACS does).

Sunnywood

Hi David,

Regarding the recognition of the speared buffalo, I am always amazed at the excitement generated by microscopic and barely visible varieties on modern coins, while major and blatant varieties of much greater importance are ignored on earlier series.

I don't know where you should draw the line, but I do think a lot of modern varieties are silly. When I see the usual articles in Coin World pointing out possible doubled dies, I am perplexed. These people ought to look at the 1872 and 1873 shield nickels shown in the CHerrypicker's Guide. Now THOSE are DDO's !!!! They make any 20th century DDO seem tame (or even irrelevant) by comparison. In the shield nickel series alone, there are repunched dates with wide displacements, major hub varieties, major date logotype varieties, and more. For example, why doesn't PCGS recognize the 1869 5c narrow date logotype variety (FS-005, also called "tall date"), or the 1868 5c Reverse of 1868 (a hub unique to that year)? Not to mention the wild DDO's, etc.

I do understand that there is some value in getting people interested in coin collecting, and one way is to get people to look at their pocket change in search of "rare" varieties. However, it seems odd to me to consider recognizing something like the speared bison when there are so many other more obvious and numismatically important varieties that are not attributed on PCGS holders.

Best,
Sunnywood

MadMarty

Like the WI high and low leaf, the buffalo will drive the E-Bay sellers into a frenzy! If you do that, my 3 PMMs will be on your desk the next day!

RayJay

Lets call it "The Shafted Buffalo" like the people who will buy it.
I am sending in a 2005 D quarter with the Virgin Mary outlined on it ...looks like it will grade a MS69

MFH

Its an error coin and it should be listed as such on its holder but NOT included in any PCGS registry nickel subheading.

Neither should the Wisconsin High Leaf/Low Leaf variety be included in the registry.

They are not in the same category as the SLQ overdate, Buffalo overdate or DDO or DDR, just to name a few.

PBRat

Should we recognize this variety?

No.

tmot99

I tend to go with not listing it as a variety. As others have pointed out, there are other more significant varieties that have not been attributed as of yet.

I think it was a mistake to list the Wisconsin high leaf and low leaf. I don't think that jsut because PCGS made the decision to list the WI quarters that the "Speared Buffalo" should be listed.

RYK

After reading others' posts and more careful deliberation, I would probably pass on the variety designation. (That said, I am not a modern collector and would likely not buy one.) There are plenty of die cracks and gouges and even real die varieites throughout US coinage history that are equally significant but do not warrant separate designation. What sets this one apart is the position of it makes the defect look like a speared buffalo (akin to the PMM quarter), thus giving it its appeal.

JRocco

I posted the other day that I found these Cali quarter "varieties" as a totally tongue-in-cheek post. Lets not get crazy here at PCGS--- these should not get their own labels.

If these label, than I want to see my "Lincoln Dropping A Doob" coin get its own slab (so coined by SSCamaro I believe)

LucyBop

I say yes! List it HepdaddyHall!

mhammerman

"Well, I guess it is a variety, but I think it's a little iffy in terms of its significance. "

When conpared to the Pixxin minuteman, the speared bison seems more significant but certainly not on the level of the 3-legged buffalo or even the wisconsin quarter. But...if that thing is worth $100 (see ebay link to speared bison) you can be sure there will be some hype for special inclusion. Doesn't do much for me, speared bison...hummmmmmm.

RELLA

<< <i>If these label, than I want to see my "Lincoln Dropping A Doob" coin get its own slab (so coined by SSCamaro I believe) >>



I would pay good money for that in a PCGS holder, as a separate variety or a "Mint Error", if the phrase "Lincoln Dropping A Doob" was actually imprinted on the PCGS insert.

RELLA

Smittys

First strikes, High & Low leaf, Guess it's time for Speared Buffalo.
It's a neat variety but to be honest none of these should have
special numbers and labels. But then again it's only fair if you
did it for one to do it for another. JMO

None of thse should make it into registry.

MadMarty

I want my PMM!!!

techeff

Should we recognize this variety?

Since when does PCGS have an interest in varieties?