All 7 coins in a 1903 US Philippine proof set just crossed grade for grade from NGC to PCGS!
Justhavingfun
Posts: 835 ✭
Wow! When Mr. Wondercoin was visiting to put together the 1894-S deal, I gave him a high-grade 1903 US Philippine proof set in NGC slabs. They were all beautiful, lovely, gorgeous proofs, and I suggested that he try to cross the set to PCGS. And he did. All 7 crossed grade for grade.
1/2 centavo: Proof 66 RED
1 centavo: Proof 66 RED (Red is much scarcer in the US Philippine series than in the regular US series because the heat and humidity of the climate in the Philippines toned almost all the bronzes)
5 centavos: Proof 68. Pop 1/0. The only Proof 68 in the entire 5 centavo series
10 centavos: Proof 66
20 centavos: Proof 66
50 centavos: Proof 67. Pop 7/0
Peso: Proof 66
I've never before seen an entire proof set cross grade to grade, either way. Congratulations to Wondercoin for another great job.
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun
1/2 centavo: Proof 66 RED
1 centavo: Proof 66 RED (Red is much scarcer in the US Philippine series than in the regular US series because the heat and humidity of the climate in the Philippines toned almost all the bronzes)
5 centavos: Proof 68. Pop 1/0. The only Proof 68 in the entire 5 centavo series
10 centavos: Proof 66
20 centavos: Proof 66
50 centavos: Proof 67. Pop 7/0
Peso: Proof 66
I've never before seen an entire proof set cross grade to grade, either way. Congratulations to Wondercoin for another great job.
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
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Comments
Wondercoin
P.S. Thank you for the "congrats", but, going 7/7 at PCGS isn't all that tough when you have coins like this set to submit. The congrats is 100% yours!
We are still years away, but, at some point in our lifetime I believe, it will become "common knowledge" that a coin like your 54(s) quarter is the finest known Wash quarter for the date and it will be rewarded accordingly with the MS68 grade.
Wondercoin
I'm really trying hard not to expand my collecting beyond a US Type Set, that's going to be tough enough, but the more pics I see of US-Philippine coins the more I'm convinced they belong in my Type Set too (though not at the lofty grade levels you collect)
Congrats and you suck
Need more $$$ for coins?
btw wonder coin..i went 19 for 20 on my morgan set.....one was an 83-s in 65...and a biggie was a 92-s in 67....and i even had a 93 cc upgrade form 64 to 65......but when you have the goods its no es deficil....
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Congratulations on a great crossover. Now for the pictures JHF. We have to see pictures.
And Man of Coins ... 3 out 5 crackouts is great. On two different occasions, I've had a weakly struck MS64 in an Au58 holder. Those coins I cracked out to get the MS64. Things like that I'll crack out. But I don't have the cajones to crack out an MS66 to try for a 67. Congratulations.
Good to hear from you, too, Mr. Monsterman. I'm glad to hear that the package got to you from Thailand.
And congratulations on your Morgan set. 19 out of 20 has to be the record. You're right: When you have the goods, it's clear sailing.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
all the type coins.
Not only are they beautiful to look at, but
-- what type set of US coins is really complete without the US Philippine series -- America's only bilingual coins? These coins all say "Filipinas" on the front; "United States of America" on the back. So they're Tagalog/Spanish on one side; English on the other.
-- Do you want a complete set of US mint marks? You need the "M" for Manila mint mark which began appearing on coins minted at the US MINT in MANILA. The US Mint in Manila was the only US mint outside of continental USA; or outside of the USA itself, for that matter.
-- And the 1920 and 21 mintages for the US Philippines are also interesting because, like the coins minted in Philadelphia, they had no mint marks.
Changing subjects to your logo about "Fair Taxation," you sure have it right when you say "Make it just another day." If you want to see the tax system reformed, just change the date taxes are due to November 1, just before the election. Or change election day to April 19th. Either way, you'd see an almost immediate simplification and rationalization of the tax code.
Enjoy!
Just having fun!
Okay, Mr. Wondercoin has sent the coins to my stateside secretary. She's really good at scanning coins, and many of the beautiful scans on Mitch's website come from her.
But neither she nor I have figured out yet how to post these scans to the message board here.
If someone who wants to see the scans of these coins will kindly write out instructions for doing it; I'll ask her to please post the pictures on this thread. Thank you and ... warm regards from Bangkok! Just Having Fun
If you follow this link, it will help you post your images here.
Looking forward see your set.
Edited to add: jonesy has been instrumental in helping many forum members, including myself, learn how to post pictures on the forum. Thanks to jonesy!!
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
<< <i>I gave him a high-grade 1903 US Philippine proof set in NGC slabs >>
JHF, that would be the UNDERSTATEMENT of the day.
Tell us, was the set purchased back in the Philippines or here in the States? Did it come from a family as an heirloom item or was it pedigreed to some other famous collector?
In any event, I've always marveled at how these 'gems of the first water' made it unscathed through all the years. Kudos on your perfect crossing.
>>>Congratulations on a great crossover>>>what does this mean??
cross over to what...for what!!!! does the market see value different in one holder vrs another
dont the coins speak for themselves...res ipsa loquitor
is everyone in this hobby losing thier grading skills....why on earth would you want to cross this over???
im lost
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
About posting the images, it may be a little tricky if your secretary isn't slightly more than MS Word literate, also, there's a 50kb file size limit on uploading images to PCGS - might not be an issue, depends on your scanner software I suppose. To get around that the files would either need to be hosted elsewhere, or reduced, which gets even more tricky. I'm going to PM my email to you, if your secretary has any trouble you could have her email the pictures to me and I'd be happy to get them posted here.
Last, about changing the tax deadline, or the general election date so they're closer in time would probably create more tax "reform", which usually just makes things more complicated and forces more people to pay other people to do their taxes. The "make it just another day" is about repealing the 16th amendment and eliminating personal, estate, gift, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment, and corporate taxes, replacing all that with a simple National Sales (Consumption) tax. Too many benefits to start listing here, but my favorite reason is simply that Income Taxes are bad - the founders knew this and included prohibited them in Article 9, Section 1 of the US Constitution. My labor is one of the few things in life that are truly only mine, my government stealing money I earn from my labor is evil. My 2nd favorite reason is that it would make american manufactured goods cheaper by some 15-50% overnight and help us compete in the world market again.
Keep having fun finding crazy nice examples of these coins.
paul
Need more $$$ for coins?
Nice looking JHF, very nice.
Posting pics like a pro too.
The obverse and reverse designs on these coins are just classic.
Clankeye
I'm convinced now, go ahead and send those coins to me and i'll put 'em in my type set
Need more $$$ for coins?
b/c everyone knows PCGS slabs get the best value and return no matter....unless you have your head in the sand - of course the 94-S will sell in any holder
JHF,
I can't express my excitement - Good for you - and a great looking set indeed - the Peso is super - and wow eye appeal
Marc
edited to remove obnoxious pre-supper comment
Dear Dam: I'm happy to take credit for selecting the coins. But my sharp, young Filippina secretary in the states gets credit for making the scans and posting the pictures.
Yes Clankeye, I agree. I think the rendition of Lady Liberty is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen. And I like that in her way, with the hammer striking the anvil, she's representing work as well as liberty, the two going hand in hand. The picture of Mt. Mayon, an active volcano in Luzon, stamps "the Philippines" indelibly on the coin.
The reverse heraldic eagle is really nice too. Much prefer it to the eagle on, say, the Washington Quarter. When it's fully struck, as it usually is with the proofs, and you can see the feathers on the chest and on out to the tippy-tip of the wings, it's a dazzler.
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun
Gosh, Wekar, I was all set to send you the peso as a thank you for the posting instructions, when I saw you weren't a fan of toning. Then I figured, nah, I'd better send him one of those shiny bright scrubbed pesos I find so often in the Philippines
Kidding aside, because of the hot, humid Philippine climate, almost all the silver proofs are toned. Unfortunately, many are toned too darkly like the 10 centavo in this set, or even more darkly.
And again because of the climate, the reds are almost non-existent amongst the bronzes.
So enjoy!
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Yes, I'll have it in the mail to you, soonest.
But you know, there's one point I want to make: That PCGS isn't waging war against NGC slabs. When you have the coins, PCGS will cross 'em. That's always been my experience historically; heck I've even had them cross over an NGC and raise the grade a notch! And judging from this 7 for 7, they obviously still have a totally open mind on the NGC slabs.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
oxymoronic isnt it....soooooo the real deal is..the smart money buys ngc slabs because they cost less...then they cross them and sell the same exact coin to the trade ( aka end user also aka as the collector ) for more money and pocketing the spread!!!
so tell me ...which one are you
1) the smart money ( the guy with the brains )
or
2) the end user ( the guy who pays all the money)
heck i bought a ngc btw 47-s for 2500 two months ago..crossed it..and just auctioned it off to some pcgs clone for 12,500...for a cool 10,000 profit ...........same exact coin!!!!
so i hear ya....lots of meatheads out there
oh and
""b/c everyone knows PCGS slabs get the best value and return no matter"""
your dead wrong here and you dont even know it ( were you an enron investor??)...i just made 400% return on my money...the buyer ( at 12,500 ) will have to sell the coin for over 60,000 to equal me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"""sorry monsterman I don't mean to be harsh ...just tired of everyone questioning common knowledge""""
sorry marc dont mean to be harsh here .....just tired of everyone`s common knowledge being so stupid!!!
which is exactly why 5% of the population has 95% of all the wealth....which is...also common knowledge....errrr common fact!
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
First off, JHF -- KILLER coins
I applaud anyone that can cross that many NGC coins in a year, let alone one submission.
PCGS slabs are worth more in many instances -- not all -- for reasons that have been beaten to death on these threads, 50x over, so I won't comment.
The reasons why people cross to PCGS are many -- some for $$, some to build grading sets, some to have a consistent registry set (the case in my instance), and there are a number of other reasons I'm sure.
My observation, as of late, is that in hindsight (which is always 20/20) it is easy to rationalize why a certain coin crossed or didn't. JHF could have had 3 out of 7 cross, and the tone on this thread would have been rationalizing why some of the coins crossed and some didn't. And the very coins that crossed and are now being ooohhhed and aahhhhed, had some of these coins not crossed, the same people here would have been rendering a completely converse opinion as to why they didn't cross. Sorry, 'cause I know I'm going to get flamed, but I'm just stating the truth...I've watched it happen.
If a coin crosses, the submitter gets a "good eye". If it doesn't cross, the submitter gets a zillion reasons why and advice on how to find better coins. What gets really funny is that if/when a coin crosses on the 2nd or 3rd try, well then, it must be PCGS's fault and they should've done it right the first time ... or better yet, the coin still sucks and the submitter got lucky and no one would buy that coin in the given grade...ok, I know I'm going to get slammed for this statement
Basically the cross game is BS. One can try to rationlize whatever they want, and they can feel good about it, but the bottom line is that NGC graders are not bad people and neither are PCGS graders. I'm sure if the companies switched graders for a week, and didn't tell anyone, no submitters would ever know yet the submitters would still render the same exact opinions about both grading service.
Fundamentally, it all comes down to management -- they drive direction and strategy. If PCGS wants one of the finest proof sets, or dollars or dimes in a PCGS slab instead of a competitor's -- voila! The same thing goes for NGC. Also, they want named/famed collectors/dealers to build an affinity to their respective brands, so certain submitters will always get better %'ages of crosses and accurate grades. The rest of us (the regular collectors), well, we just pay their bills.
JHF -- KUDOS again. DYNAMITE coins, which are now in PCGS holders. Just one question, if I may -- did you send in the whole set with an all or none? Meaning, if they couldn't all cross you didn't want any to cross and you would keep the whole set in the NGC holders? I'm real curious about this and I'm hoping you can truthfully share this...if not, I'd understand.
Best regards, Mike.
your dead wrong here and you dont even know it ( were you an enron investor??)...i just made 400% return on my money...the buyer ( at 12,500 ) will have to sell the coin for over 60,000 to equal me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MM, you just made his point.
heck i bought a ngc btw 47-s for 2500 two months ago..crossed it..and just auctioned it off to some pcgs clone for 12,500...for a cool 10,000 profit ...........same exact coin!!!!
LOL, EXACTLY
MM
sorry your feathers seems ruffled - too busy making real money to reply - let everyone else chip in.........
Marc
>>>MM, you just made his point>>>
did i....i cant believe it.....tell me you really dont think so ...tell me your just kidding....want some " pet rocks"??? cheap!!..i got them on sale!!!
mike
you sir....are blessed with higher thinking.....and it shows!!! now if we could only get some others around here to understand " the game"
monsterman
btw dan and marc
just a question for you
if 2 exactly equal collectors ( money,brains,sources, yada yada yada ) were out there and one bought only pcgs and the other bought pcgs and ngc...at the end of the day which one ( in your infinite wisdom ) would build the better collection???
lets make this mulitple choice
a) the pcgs only collector
b) its not even close
hint ( anyone who thinks they can compete only considering less than half the coins in the market....must also think they could win the ncaa basketball tournament with an all white team )
and marc never foget
albert einstein once said there are only 2 things that are for sure
1) the universe is infinite
2) the stupidity of mankind
however i question the validity of the former
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Let me answer your questions one-by-one ...
(1) Did I send the set in "all or none"? No. Mitch and I were primarily interested in the 5 centavo in Proof 68. It was the finest 5 centavo I've ever seen, and for Mr. Wondercoin, I don't think I'd be exaggerating if I said it was "love at first sight."
I thought it SHOULD cross, but I wasn't sure it would, simply because PCGS had never before graded a 5 centavo (proof or business strike) in 68 (and less than a handful in 67, for that matter). If that had crossed and none of the others had, I would have been well satisfied.
(2) For the other coins, I wasn't sure if the half centavo and centavo merited a cross. They certainly made the grade comfortably, but I wasn't sure PCGS would let them keep their "RED" designations. RED is really, really rare amongst the US Philippine series, because the hot, humid climate tones (and sometimes corrodes) the bronzes.
The 10 centavo does not offer the lush eye appeal of the other coins in the set. While I thought it was technically a clear proof 66, I wasn't sure it cross because PCGS often takes eye appeal into account.
I thought the 20 and 50 centavos were well graded at 66 and 67 respectively. The 20 centavo had tiny nick and break in the toning on the obverse, above the anvil on the obverse. Shows up more prominently in the scans than in real life, because the scans are so large, but it you hold the coin the right way, you see the nick. I felt that held it back from any shot at 67. The 50 centavo, as you can see, is a beaut and deserved the Proof 67 it got.
I was secretly hoping that PCGS might upgrade the peso to Proof 67. I knew it had a shot at it, and knew the dazzling eye appeal wouldn't hurt its chances. But when I got it back, I wasn't disappointed wtih the Proof 66.
(3) "JHF could have had 3 out of 7 cross, and the tone on this thread would have been rationalizing why some of the coins crossed and some didn't"
I don't think so. If NONE of the coins crossed, I grant you I'd have been grouchy about it. But if 3 of the 7 had crossed, I would have been tickled pink -- especially if the 5 centavo was one of them.
Why should I be upset if 3 had cross? I know I've stared at more of these coins than any of the PCGS (or NGC) graders. But I also know that I'm an amateur and those guys are professionals and a whole lot better at what they're doing than I am.
(4) "What gets really funny is that if/when a coin crosses on the 2nd or 3rd try, well then, it must be PCGS's fault and they should've done it right the first time ... or better yet, the coin still sucks and the submitter got lucky "
Of course! But the reality is as everyone knows, that grading is subjective. If you catch the finalizer on the day after the night his wife said "I have a headache, honey," my guess is you'd be a heck of lot less likely to get the crossover than on a day after he'd had a really satisfying frolic the night before.
And other times, the submitter simply did get lucky. I've rejected many coins because of that. Anyone who wants to build a classly collection has to do the same thing.
(5) Why did I want the cross overs?
Lots of reasons, but simplicity and profit are two. I'm at an age when I'm beginning to see friends and associates younger than me drop away. No one in my immediate family is the least bit interested in rare coins. I think it will be simpler for my children to get a grasp on my collection if most of the coins were in one company's holders. And if you're going for one company's holders, why not go for the best, and most valuable, i.e., PCGS.
I like the NGC slabs for the older coins but they've cheapened their product line with their absurdly too easy Pr 70 Ultra Cameo's on the modern coins. You take any ten of them at random, and it's odds on that you'll see some obviously disqualifying mark with your naked eye on at least 9 and probably all 10. You'll be lucky to get one coin that YOU would think really deserved the PR 70's/Ultra Cameo.
And yes, that's just for the moderns. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure in many others. The reality is that the standards at PCGS are a millisnitch higher higher, which is why their slabs are worth more.
There's more, but I have to go now and you have enough to chew on.
Nitey night,
Just Having Fun!
JHF -- Good night, or as the case may be, it's probably already AM in your part of the world
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and anticipations for the coins you had submitted. I especially like the bit about how the grader might feel in the morning. Isn't that the truth
First:
JHF bought some great coins, probably had them slabbed by NGC, and then crossed them all in one fell swoop, to PCGS. It would appear he preferred the PCGS recognition over NGC for these coins.
Second:
MM has the experience and wisdom of Socrates, Plato, and more recently Kissinger. He has played this game as long as anyone, and has done it well. A simple statement can explain his reasoning on viewing all coins in the series he may be interested in. And then buying the ones he thinks are reasonably priced.
There are monster toned coins in PCGS, NGC, ANACS, SEGS and other slabs and some are still found raw today. MM doesn't care what the holder is or says as to the grade. He is among the few collectors that have seen, over 35 years, more toned specimens than most of us have taken breaths.(He is really old!)
With that experience, and the assistance of a few special dealers,
he will buy the coins that he believes are undergraded, or that are PCGS candidates; or that are so highly originally toned, that they do not need any holder to describe their beauty.
He will almost always pay under market, especially for the non-PCGS graded coins, and make tons if and when they do cross. If they don't, he still has a monster toned coin that he bought without the PCGS premium.
Sorry to be so winded, but I guess I have been hanging around with the windiest one for too long.
JHF: As usual, absolutely no exaggeration with your comment. When you handed me the set, the 5 centavo simply blew me away. Having personally seen very few high grade 5 centavos, I could only compare it in my mind to, say, proof Lib nickels of the same era. With that comparison, the 5 centavo is simply amazing.
Incidently, my second favorite coin in the set is the Peso. IMHO, the coin is fully deserving of a one point upgrade to PR67. It is the twin sister to the PR67 50 centavos. I had a good mind to resubmit the coin for you before mailing you back the set, but, I figured whenever the set ultimately gets sold, the bidders may easliy see the set is very strictly graded (and if they figure the Peso for an easy PR67 upgrade, they might even consider the 5 centavos for a longshot PR69!!!!)
Wondercoin
I'm not sure why Mr. MonsterMan seems to arouse controversy. It seems to me that he speaks truth and not just talks the walk but walks the walk. His philosophy seems simple and smart: You train your own eye and buy the monstercoins. It doesn't matter what the slab is or even if it is slabbed.
He says: "if 2 exactly equal collectors ( money,brains,sources, yada yada yada ) were out there and one bought only pcgs and the other bought pcgs and ngc...at the end of the day which one ( in your infinite wisdom ) would build the better collection???"
Well the answer to that is pretty obvious, isn't it?
Obviously, if you buy the coin it doesn't matter what the plastic is, except if it's in an ANACS or NGC holder you'll pay less, because there are lots of people who buy the plastic.
This set of 7 bodacious US Philippine proofs is a case in point. I got it at a very reasonable price because the plastic -- not the coins -- was inferior. The coins were monstercoins in NGC holders but the price reflected the NGC holders not the monster coins in the plastic.
And now that the set crossed to PCGS holders, the value of the set rose sharply. Same coins, just worth more money. Go figure.
This is exactly what Mr. Monstercoin describes with his 1947-S Booker T Washington. Bought for $2,500; crossed it; sold it; and walked away with a 400% profit in two months.
But again, what's controversial with what Mr. Monstercoin did? It's just plain common sense. He has the eye and he trusts his own judgment -- and he's cleaning up. If you'll excuse the cliche, the proof is in the pudding.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
It is refreshing to see others that easily understand MM. It appears that we all are aware of the market pricing of coins that relies, to some degree, on the holder. I emphasize pricing, not grade accuracy.
And your purchase of the 7 piece set in NGC holders, for the coins within, confirms your insight, You purchased the coins!
I too have a small story re buying NGC coins and crossing. My Barber half set, now complete with an average GPA over 65.6. was once 2/3 PCGS and 1/3 NGC. So I had about 24 coins in NGC holders, ranging in grade from MS 65 to 67. Over an 18 month period, I was able to cross to PCGS 21 of the 24 in the same grade.
The coins that crossed were totally deserving of the grade, by any standard. I didn't get lucky, I just couldn't do it on one submission.
Moral-- do this long enough and you will train those eyes to make real good decisions about the quality of the coin, and create big savings, so the next buy is easier
One last thing-- Did I hear that you are starting a Liberty nickel set in MS? If so, welcome aboard.
<< <i>You train your own eye and buy the monstercoins. It doesn't matter what the slab is or even if it is slabbed. >>
The truth can be so blissful!