wondercoin is officially marketing Tom Mershons Lincoln Cent Collection ?
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
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Stewart Blay #1 All Time Finest Lincoln Cent collection
AKA Lord Master Stewart
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Stewart,
I thought the same thing. Seems like a conflict of interest to me.
And the biggest laughis he will be informing people on the message board which coins are upgrade candidates.
Also, I was under the impression that the coins had been in to PCGS already once (maybe twice). Aren't they now pedigreed to the Mershon Collection? I doubt they were sent in just for re-holdering. So, I am not sure which coins are upgrade candidates that haven't already upgraded.
Jack
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Basically I agree with what Stewart says, but let me express my feelings a little more gently. Shouldn't everyone wonder (no pun intended) about the value of commentary from someone being paid to promote a collection? I think it is such a obvious conflict that it may negatively impact the sale of Tom's coins.
At best, what does it add over and above catalog descriptions? At worst, it is filled with self-serving false information (which may be inadvertent and not deliberate).
The fact is that Tom Mershon's collection may have some nice coins in it but the only way to know that is to ignore "fourth-party" evaluations and look at the coins yourself.
Lord Master Stewart
<< <i>You can see with the updates in the Mershon set that he went 0/16 with upgrades. I guess that is good news for the collectors interested in those coins. Also, by the way, some of the Mershon coins can be viewed now in the Heritage auction preview section. >>
I would take it that these coins are nice for the grade. Some tough coins to upgrade.
or as Jimmy Hendrix sang ...
There must be some kind of way out of here said the joker to the thief.There is too much confusion...I can't get no relief
Stewart
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Additionally, as I mentioned elsewhere, I was perfectly content to not bid on the Mershon coins if Tom desired that to be the case since I did assist with his reserves (an issue between Tom and myself). I am informed Dave plans to bid "as usual" on the collection and Tom is fine with that, as he is with me bidding as well, if I chose to. Rest assured, to me, it is really not a big deal one way or the other.
In any event, as with all the other constructive comments I have received thus far by introducing the thread (e.g. pedigree comments, photography comments), I will consider (and discuss with Tom and Dave) your comments regarding the (minimal) "value" of discussing the coins here as was originally planned. Your opinions are appreciated.
Wondercoin
Russ, NCNE
some entertainment today afterall!
Wish I had some popcorn!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Did PCGS ever re-slab it and sell it off?
Just wondering!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I'd say we're just wrapping up Act 1 of a 4 Act preformance.
It is with PCGS now
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Hey what ever happened to that badly over-graded hunk of junk called a 1963 PR70DCAM Lincoln? >>
PCGS purcahsed it back.
"..Tom is fine with ... me bidding as well, if I chose to. Rest assured, to me, it is really not a big deal one way or the other."
If its not a big deal the smart thing to do would have been to back away from the get go, from either bidding or promoting. To me it is a serious breech of ethics, maybe even the law, to be involved in the promotion, specifically offering advice to the quality of the coins, bidding on those same coins, trying for upgrades prior without informing others, while you are being paid a percentage of the total sale. If you were the under bidder, intentionally or unintentionally on a coin(s) it is called shilling and is illegal in many states. If it is not a big deal step away from one of the deals is my advice. I suppose this is less objectionable than representing the seller and collecting a fee while getting a fee from the buyer as well.
I'm not sure I see anything wrong with bonafide bidding on a coin you're not the owner of if you're buying it for resale.... even if you have been paid to promote the set. On the other hand, I would find it reprehensible for a dealer to recommend their own coin to a potential buyer and then bid against that buyer in order to run him up.
I agree with the others. Someone who is posting their "expertise" opinions on the set, while at the same time going to bid on the coins smells to high heaven. Why would anyone believe, or trust, let alone listen to the advice????
<<I was perfectly content to not bid on the Mershon coins if Tom desired that to be the case since I did assist with his reserves (an issue between Tom and myself). I am informed Dave plans to bid "as usual" on the collection and Tom is fine with that, as he is with me bidding as well, if I chose to. Rest assured, to me, it is really not a big deal one way or the other.>>
It is a big deal. But more importantly, the paragraph makes me laugh. I am SURE Tom DOESNT want you to bid. WHY WOULD HE WANT MORE BIDDERS????
In the original Tom Mershon thread, it was also stated that "Tom wouldn't mind to see wild bidding on his stuff!!!" ??? NNNOOOOOO. WHY WOULD HE POSSIBLY WANT THAT???
Mitch, you shouldn't even bother posting anymore. The catalogs should promote enough. But not everything is being said about the coins. For example, the 1909-S VDB 67RD has a scratch across the VDB!!!!
The TRUE POSITIVE about this "pumping of the set" I am very pleased to see is that PCGS DID NOT UPGRADE ANY OF THE RESUBMITTED. The fact that so many were resubmitted again makes me nod my head. BUT SUBMITTED AS "REGRADES". Well, how can you LOSE by submitting again??? I'm sure they'll sell for big bucks, but this forum IS TO EDUCATE/SHARE IDEAS ON OUR POSSIBLE PURCHASES.
Thank God the Lord is back.
Lloyd: Thanks for taking the time to express you opinion on the subject. Again, as I mentioned before (in response to Gerry's post), I will discuss this issue with Dave and Tom.
Wondercoin
P.S. Clackamas - thanks for your opinion as well as yours as well Steve.
roadrunner
<< <i>.... other than to state that I don't think the Set Registry Forum is the proper place for paid promotion of an upcoming sale - an opinion shared by many. >>
I personally am not against paid promotion on the registry forum and neither is most of the board (coins for sale are posted here all the time) and this is a significant sale for Lincoln Collectors. The conflict of interest bugs me and it should be hashed out and brought to light.
My response was to Stewart's post ... I find his writing style rather amusing.
other than to state that I don't think the Set Registry Forum is the proper place for paid promotion of an upcoming sale - an opinion shared by many
Right on, TDN
Jack
Although I have always felt that way about pimping on this forum, it is the main reason it was created.
As Manofcoins stated, Mitch was completely open about what he was doing. He did not try to hide his actions or his compensation. This doesn't change what he's doing, but it does mean we was trying to be above board about it. He was being honest. I think he has a good eye, and I would like to see Mitch's opinion of the Tom Mershon Lincoln Cent collection. However, I know his opinion has been paid for so I'll factor that into my evluation of what Mitch says.
Personally, I agree with Clackamas and other others that there is an "apparent" conflict of interest in bidding on coins where each of your bids increases your compensation. I say "apparent" because I don't believe Mitch would bid for this reason. However, in any service position (and perhaps any job), "appearance" is everything. I'm pleased Mitch is giving this more consideration.
Finally, I would love to hear Stewart's opinion of each coin. If I were going to purchase a significant coin at this auction (which is unlikely), I would gladly pay for Stewart's opinion. Of course, I'll have to take the sharp edges off some of his opinions when I evaluate them. However, I believe Stewart has a good eye and will be (brutally) honest about the coins.
In our "real life" evaluations and decisions we take a number of factors into account. And each of us gives the factors different weights. Evaluating people's opinions of and deciding whether to purchase a Lincoln cent, is no different than what we do in many other "real life" situations every day. It's interesting, even challenging (dare I say "fun"?). And we don't all come to the same conclusion.
Now, does that smell any better
CoolKarma
MS Buffalo
MS 1951
I think its BS to blame the customer. Shilling to me is cheating-even if its announced head of time.
I have never purchased from Mitch, but I have learned from his comments and observations on these forums that he is an honest dealer. He has been upfront about his activities on the Mershon auction. He will ultimately decide for himself whether he should participate in the auction.
I find the comments of the so called "elitists" to be interesting but sometimes they show me that I can stand just as tall with my Lincolns as they seem to think their GPA and registry rank reflects something more than it really does. They have all the emotions of the average guy. I respect Stewart because of his acknowledged postition in this hobby. I guess I should feel the same about Gerry, but he choses not to publicize and that is OK too. There is obviously some rivalry amongst the top level Lincoln cent collectors and dealers and I must admit I enjoy reading about that in these threads too.
What I would like to see as regards this Mershon auction is a continuation of the dialogue by the Lincoln cent collectors community, opinions of the individual coins by Mitch, David, even Stewart if he so choses, and any others who have intimate knowledge of the coins. Will all this add to the publicity? Sure. Is that bad? NO. The people who will truely bid in this auction with the intent to win the coin will do so with knowledge. If they are trying to get a bargin on a true high level coin they will fail. If they do get a bargin on a high level coin it will be because of some problem that others should know about. The real benefit will be for people like me who enjoy reading about Lincoln cents and how others feel about these great coins. All the above is obviously just my own opinion. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Not that I think Wondercoin would abuse the situation, but the outward appearance of such an arrangement will inevitably draw much disdain and suspicion.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
"I have never purchased from Mitch, but I have learned from his comments and observations on these forums that he is an honest dealer. He has been upfront about his activities on the Mershon auction. He will ultimately decide for himself whether he should participate in the auction."
Koolkarma and Steve (and Manofcoins): I appreciate your comments. However, I believe the easiest way to address this issue at this point is for me to simply not discuss the coins here as was originally intended by Dave and myself. I spoke with Dave (MS68) this morning and he concurs, as does Tom. This ends any issue in a simple manner. I hope everyone has a nice holiday weekend.
Wondercoin.
Steve,
Good comments. I would also like to see the dialogue regarding the Mershon Lincolns, and Lincolns in general, to continue.
However, I don't think anyone is being "elitist" by voicing the concerns that have been raised. I can say most certainly that Gerry is not an elitist. Although I have never met him, we have communicated quite a bit over the past couple years. He's always willing to help and has done so for me. He is unassuming and I can say that "elitist" does not characterize my interactions with him.
I don't think there was any objection to discussing the coins. It was the motive and manner is which it was being done. Certainly, whenever (in fact this may be a first:Funny
I agree with you that we should look at this important collection in an unbiased open discussion.
I look forward to it.
Jack
The action is clear from a distant vantage point.
...manuevering for advantage is sought.
...remember to investigate the accuser, especially where character assassination appears.
----------------------------Long arm of the C.U.M not far behind--------------------------------------
Then the quote is heard again "Your capacity to help your fellow collectors on these Boards is amazing".
...and again you keep hold of the "High Ground".
BBpM
<< <i>Steve,
Good comments. I would also like to see the dialogue regarding the Mershon Lincolns, and Lincolns in general, to continue.
Jack >>
I'm sure you are not an elitist and I'm sure most others here don't believe they are elitists either. But one thing is certain. The comments made here convinced Mitch not to go ahead with his intended report on the coins. So who is the loser? I am, and you are and all the other Lincoln cent collectors who would have liked to learn more about these coins. Why did this happen? Perhaps Mitch decided that he did want to bid in the auction. So, because of perception, something that has nothing to do with reality, we are deprived of this information. The "elitists" have won IMHO. Does anyone really believe these events could or would hurt anyones bidding? You either want the coin and are willing to pay for it or you just pass. Sorry this is what happens when MONEY gets in the way of education. And the joke of it is that every potential bidder can well afford what they would need to spend to get the coin they want. Again, JMHO and I'm sorry I had to vent. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
This thread exposed specific "insiders", also valuable to the collector.
Mitch is an upstanding guy, in fact, once I bid on a coin he was bidding on. He was pissed and removed his bid. The coin had a reserve and the reserve was not met. He was pissed that I raised his bid (which I didn't since another bidder was between us) since it showed a number closer to what his true offer was and he intended to make an offer out side of Ebay (which he later did) at the lowest possible price.
While I am no legal scholar, I would bet there would be a problem in a court case if one side knew the judge had a vested interest in the outcome. (even though the judge was upstanding and would not let anything affect his decision)