Should McGwire go to the HOF?
Ed62
Posts: 857 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
If his numbers were legit he would be a lock.
But with this huge cloud, I think the beisbol writers should draw a line and keep him out.
But with this huge cloud, I think the beisbol writers should draw a line and keep him out.
Ed
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<< <i>If his numbers were legit he would be a lock.
But with this huge cloud, I think the beisbol writers should draw a line and keep him out. >>
Killebrew had much better numbers over the course of his career than MGwire did and they made him wait until 1984 for election (9 years after he retired).
However, it has been proven that the HOF rewards huge individual seasons over consistent careers and McGwire had some monster seasons. Plus, by 2007, this fiasco will have died down. He will get in on the 1st ballot (right or wrong).
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Mac conceivably could've added to his legend by being forthright and by using his platform to help clean up the game and to deter young people from taking health risks with the drugs. Instead, he opted for evasiveness, clearly tarnishing his image in the process. It's similar to what I said about Pete Rose here earlier this week - it's not so much Rose's gambling or McGwire's use of steroids and similar substances as it is their public posturing that rankles me. I still consider McGwire a Hall of Famer, but it would neither surprise me nor bother me if he twists in the wind a few years before being enshrined.
That said, there's a considerable part of me that says "So what?" about yesterday's spectacle on Capitol Hill and the whole steroid issue in general. I mean, we're righteously indignant about "performance-enhancing drugs" in sport, but completely blase when it comes to the endless parade of broadcast advertisements for and ostensible use of Viagra, Paxil, Strattera and the myriad other performance-enhancing drugs in the greater culture. In a strange sense, I agree with Big Mac's answer to the "is it cheating?" question.
Fitter, happier, more productive.
I was one of the biggest Mac supporters until yesterday. I never thought he took them. Now, you would have to be plum stupid to think that he didn't. He may have done the correct thing legally, but by avoiding the questions, he is definitely guilty in the court of public opinion.
Having said that, he did still have to hit the ball, and boy did he do that.
No, the records should not be taken away. Nor should there be an asterisk beside the record. Anybody with any brains knows that this was the "STEROID ERA" and will make their judgements accordingly. Quite simply, it is just not needed. People will automatically know!
Shane
Mac will ultimately end up in the hall, but I think his first ballot chances took a serious and significant hit yesterday.
I think voters will make him wait 1-2 years before awarding him the hall.
Should McGwire go to the HOF?
Yes, This will past... And he will make it on his first try!
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DS1991TOPPS@aol.com
...1991 TOPPS Desert Shield Baseball Card Collector
.....Since 1991 HOOAH!
S1991TOPPS@aol.com ">myemailaddress
Steroids may increase your strength, but they DO NOT help you see the ball better, nor do they help your timing on a pitch! The batter still has to see the ball, time it and then hit it. You could be the strongest and most beefed (or "juiced") up human in history, but if your eyes are bad, you will strike out (just look at Dave Kingman...if he would have had better eyesight as it goes to seeing the ball, he would probably have broken Aaron's career HR record!; and he retired in 1987, before the "steroid era")
Yes, steroids are bad for your health, and all sports need to do a lot more to get rid of them, but they have been looked at as permissable for use up until now.
We all need to quit worrying about what's already happened, and get on with it! Crack down on those who use the stuff now and in the future, but we don't need to constantly worry about "changing the rules after the game has already been played"
JMHO
Steve
Oh YES, Big Mac definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame!!!
SDSportsFan,
WELL STATED... THANK YOU!
---------------
HOW Many Pro - Body Builders do you think could hit a baseball? ok... How many do you think could hit over 500 out of the park???
I would bet zero.................
...1991 TOPPS Desert Shield Baseball Card Collector
.....Since 1991 HOOAH!
S1991TOPPS@aol.com ">myemailaddress
If that's the case, then why are these pro athletes risking their LIVES to take these substances?
No one (who is educated on steroids) has every said it will help you hit a baseball. It will, however, help you hit it farther, and help you recover from the gym faster so you can keep up strength all year long, when a normal body breaks down and gets smaller over the course of 162 games.
If you don't think these medical FACTS are true, well, you never will. You probably also think Bonds didn't knowling adminster steroids or growth hormones to himself.
<< <i>Good god there are people who STILL don't think that steroids give you an advantage.
If that's the case, then why are these pro athletes risking their LIVES to take these substances?
No one (who is educated on steroids) has every said it will help you hit a baseball. It will, however, help you hit it farther, and help you recover from the gym faster so you can keep up strength all year long, when a normal body breaks down and gets smaller over the course of 162 games.
If you don't think these medical FACTS are true, well, you never will. You probably also think Bonds didn't knowling adminster steroids or growth hormones to himself. >>
I do feel that steroids give someone an advantage. The bottom line though, in my opinion, is that steroid use has been considered "legal" by MLB until now. Anyone who wanted to, could use them. I do feel that Bonds and McGwire (as well as probably a hundred other stars) have been using them until now.
All I'm saying is GET OVER IT....IT'S DONE!
Let's worry ourselves with what we do now, and in the future!
We can NOT change the past, so there is absolutely no sense in getting all our panties in a knot about it.
We also should not be condemning players for doing something that was considered LEGAL at the time they did it!
JMHO
Steve
<< <i>All I'm saying is GET OVER IT....IT'S DONE! >>
Best steriod statement I've seen written here in awhile.
and yes, McGwire still goes into the hall.
<< <i>
HOW Many Pro - Body Builders do you think could hit a baseball? ok... How many do you think could hit over 500 out of the park???
I would bet zero................. >>
Moron.
No one has EVER said that it would give someone the ability to hit a baseball.
Medical research has shown repeatedly that it gives the MLB player (someone obviously with talent) the ability to turn long fly ball outs into HRs...it allows the body to recover much faster from working out, allowing the player to work out harder and longer (most steroid users state that the gym becomes an addiction), and that it allows the player the ability to withstand the 162 game season with little to no drop-off is muscle mass.
The most you people say 'it's in the past' the more you sound more and more like that coward McGwire. He was unable to even say that taking steroids was wrong! 'It's not for me to say' was his response to the question if steroid usage was cheating!
Sure, steroids weren't banned by baseball prior to 2003, but their possession without a prescription IS A FELONY. That overrides ANYTHING MLB puts into it's so-called policy.
You people who continue to claim that McG did nothing wrong-I bet the federal government would STRONGLY disagree with you. You claim that Canseco can't be believed, because of his past, and that McG is a hero, and he is unfallable. I think again that the federal government would disagree with you.
<< <i>Medical research has shown repeatedly that it gives the MLB player (someone obviously with talent) the ability to turn long fly ball outs into HRs. >>
Medical evidence? Can you supply this evidence. I'm not saying it's not true, but I'd like to see this evidence you have all-knowing Axtell.
<< <i>The most you people say 'it's in the past' the more you sound more and more like that coward McGwire. >>
I think we were saying we are just sick of hearing you talk about it.
<< <i>Medical evidence? Can you supply this evidence. I'm not saying it's not true, but I'd like to see this evidence you have all-knowing Axtell.
>>
"Anabolic steroids can help athletes muscles grow bigger and stronger, according to experts.
"It may make the difference between 40 or 50 home runs a year and 70 home runs a year, in terms of actually having more strength day in and day out in the ballpark," said Dr. Rob Meislin, of the Hospital for Joint Diseases.
Anabolic steroids affect testosterone levels and the amount of amino acids in the blood. Steroids also stimulate the body to produce growth hormone."
Article Link
A simple search on yahoo or google will result in many research studies on the short- and long-term effects of anabolic steroid and human growth hormones on the human body. They study in detail what happens to athletes who, already playing with great amounts of god-given talent, take it up another notch with these substances.
If you don't like listening to the TRUTH, go act like an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and ignore the FACTS. The facts of the matter are that steroids are a determining factor in how far an athlete can push themselves in the weight room, how fast they recover from that workout, and how far they hit the ball from the increased the strength. The same holds true for pitchers as well as hitters, and I suspect you will see a good number of pitchers who over the past couple years have added a lot to their fastball drop off.
I am sorry that the home run hitters of the past 10-15 years have resorted to abusing these substances in order to achieve the numbers they have. Did anyone honestly think that the barrage of 60-homer seasons was an anomoly, or did you honestly think that these players were juiced? I don't think anyone who objectively looked at the exponential increase in HR totals could suspect anything other than steroid and HGH use.
<< <i>"It MAY make the difference between 40 or 50 home runs a year and 70 home runs a year, in terms of actually having more strength day in and day out in the ballpark," said Dr. Rob Meislin, of the Hospital for Joint Diseases. >>
Key word is "MAY". Even though I do not dispute the theory that steriods can help, there are far too many variables to be able to state it as fact. Since you are dealing with individuals you cannot have a control for an expirement to ever prove it without a doubt. My issue was not that steriods can help power hitters (I believe they can), my issue is that you state opinion as fact, and always make yourself sound like an ass doing it.
<< <i>If you don't like listening to the TRUTH, go act like an ostrich and stick your head in the sand and ignore the FACTS. >>
Since you didn't supply any facts I don't think I'll bury it yet.
I guess the truth stings a little, doesn't it?
Relax
Does it not worry anyone that MLB had no steroid ban when it is a federal crime to be selling or using it without a doctor's prescription? The fact that no steroid ban was in the books goes against federal law. The leadership brass of baseball are educated enough to know this. I believe they did look the other way when ball players used steroids. The fact that even right now, first time offenders may only need to pay a fine of $10,000 reveals how steroid friendly baseball is. 10 grand is a drop in the bucket for ball players and they do not have to miss games.
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OK - let's follow this logic... I'm playing baseball and hit a pop fly then I take a gun out while rounding first and shoot the outfielder in the shoulder so he can't catch it, then I shoot the other outfielder in the arm so he can't throw me out and as I am rounding third, I'll shoot the catcher in case someone picks up the ball and tries to throw me out at home. Since shooting is "legal" in MLB I can hit a HR everytime I hit the ball, right?
How frigging absurd is that? It's Legal right?
It was once said that the biggest impediment in the crusade against steroid use is, "THAT THEY WORK!!" That is why it will be impossible to prevent young people from doing them, because they will see and feel the difference in their bodies.
Again, everyone still needs to remember that steroids are only a part of the crazy numbers, and that cannot be forgotten. When I refer to this as the juiced era, I am referring to the "juiced" stats as they are artificially inflated, not just because of steroids, but because of EXTREMELY thin talent(compared to only 15 or so years earlier even), the VERY lively ball(with very low seems I might add), the VERY small ballparks, the VERY small strike zone, the body armor hitters wear, the fact that the VERY best pitchers don't pitch as many innings as the VERY best pitchers of previous eras(which means lesser pitchers are taking the hill more often). Add all those factors together and you get guys like McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro etc....whose stats can CERTAINLY be taken with a grain of salt.
PLEASE DO NOT SAY BABE RUTH ETC....A lot of his numbers and of early players are taken with some salt too. Circumstances also allowed those guys to do things that would not have occured in 1983. Basically, guys from the 50's to 1992 played in the toughest era for individuals to excel or dominate. Guys that played from 1994 to 2005 played in the absolute EASIEST era in the history of baseball to excel or dominate. Guys that played in the 30's to the beginning played in the next easiest era to excel or dominate.
When fans realize this, then I can stop hearing idiotic and ignorant comments that I ALWAYS see on message boards like this. People continually say things without bothering to really look at the evidence. They see one example and say " see that", like that idiot that used Big Klu as proof that steroids were in use in baseball during the 50's. He used one guy, and then just ignored the other 399 players from that year. Yeah, thats good evidence.
It was also once said that the hardest people to debate against are the ones who know the least, and I find that quite true after getting to debates/discussion with guys who really know their sh$t, and guys who know very little(like I've experienced here a lot). There are some refreshingly good posters on here, but some extremely bad ones.
Yeah, everyone can have opinions, but you know what opinons are like. It is best to back up your opions with extemely good evidence, not using one example that shows your point while ignoring the other 1,000 that don't, is probably step one that people need to learn.