Detecting the fakes (S-VDB & 14D)....what are the chances...

Prethen

I had a real life scenario that I have to wonder if I'm a complete idiot or what. I passed up on the chance to buy a raw S-VDB and 14-D Lincoln cents from an old time collector. I did not see the coins because I passed up on the deal before ever meeting with the party in question. I asked if I could work out a deal with him to ensure the coins are authentic (either through a service or another dealer). He was incensed that I would even insinuate that his coins might be fake. The deal was dead before there was even a deal to be discussed.

I've seen what some of the obvious fakes look like and I have a high degree of confidence that I could detect an added "S" or a manipulated "4" to "1" and possibly an added "D". Beyond these type of fakes my confidence wanes. If it's a spark-erosion die and the difference between real and fake are subtle, I'd be kidding myself to say that I could tell the difference. So, the real questions are this:

A - Was I total fool? My guess is, based on what I already know about this collector, the coins were not likely fakes (but, I have to emphasize, not likely)
B - How prevalent are "good" fakes of these coins? Are there enough out there to fool even relatively knowledgable dealers (the same dealers that will claim, in my circles, that they could buy the raw stuff with confidence)?

The fact is this, if I ended up with fakes, the real money that I would have invested in those coins could seriously hurt me and my business. In one sense, I know I did the right thing because I could sleep at night (other than the fact that I passed on them) and preserved my funds for buying quite a few other coins for resale.

I also realize that the margins on the buying side to the selling side are relatively small, usually. In the future, I need to weigh these things so that I can have decent inventory to show without jeorpardizing the future viability of my new business.

I appreciate any responses any of you might have. There might be a few of you that will tell me I shouldn't be a dealer if I don't know how to buy key dates raw. I truly feel that type of comment is quite harsh and somewhat unrealistic. I don't know how many people are born with an innate ability to detect carefully made counterfeits or had the opportunity to work directly with so many of them that it's non-problematic to detect them. As of yet, I'm not one of 'em.

It's a bit unnerving to be new on the dealer scene and unable to have the confidence to buy the "keys" in raw state. I've heard of enough stories from people I know and this very board that convinces me that my paranoia is justified.

Bruce

kranky

I see it this way. They are two of the most faked coins, raw, and there's nothing wrong with protecting yourself against buying fakes. I don't think you did anything wrong. There's always another deal out there, it's not like these were Stellas.

There are very good fakes out there, which is why nearly everyone wants to have some guarantee of authenticity. And on top of determining if it's genuine, you have to worry about whether the coin was played with. The people you would have sold them to would have wanted some guarantee, right? So why not make sure you have the real deal.

For all we know, the collector has tried to sell them before, were told they were fakes, and is trying to find someone to pawn them off onto. It would then be convenient for him to act incensed once you wanted some guarantee, because that way he won't have to show them to you and you'd be one less person who knows for a fact the coins are bad.

I once saw a long-time vest pocket dealer sell a fake 14-D to another dealer! You gotta protect yourself.

mademan

it has been my experience that the person who cries "foul" the loudest usually has something to hide. Another great deal will come along with a more reasonable seller. I feel it is most important to protect your capital and that is what you did. Good move. MM

D

The 1914-D is very easy to detect a fake, most of the time just look at Lincoln's shoulder, if it's got VDB on it, it's a 44, not a 14. Even the best carved 44's can still show the VDB.

-Daniel

jdsinva

Well, I don't think anyone should bash you for not being able to tell if a coin is fake or not, outside of the obvious. You questions reminds me of a discussion I had with my local coin shop dealer last weekend, who broke out his box of buying mistakes which included an altered 1944-D and some gold conterfeits among others. The date on the 1944-D/1914-D had been altered and kind of mushed down which made the date on the coin look weak and fuzzy. This was in contrast to the rest of the coin which had sharp devices. This dealer has turned down a number of coins due to the fact they were heavily faked. He tells the sellers to get them slabbed and he'll buy them. It's almost a business necessity to have certain coins authenticated before you buy.

carl

It's been said many times already but they are some of the most faked coins out there. The coppercoins web site discusses them a little and his book Looking Through Lincoln Cents spens time and shows pictures of the fakes on many coins that are popular. There is a good chance the person trying to sell them to you doesn't know if they are real or not. Some of the fakes have actually been forged, not just altered as on the 1944D to 1914D. Same with the 09S VDB. Would be nice if the fakes were noted as such and sold for a real cheap price to fill in the empty spot in a book. Some time ago a company was making brand new 1955 T Bird Cars. They sold for a lot of money though and one of my neighbors has one. Can't tell from the original and he don't care. I would really get worried if soeone tried to sell me about 10 or 20 1913 Liberty Head Nickels even in poor condition. Possibly the best thing would have been to request he send them to PCGS and then you would buy them and incure the cost of slabbing the things.

Barry

<< <i>it has been my experience that the person who cries "foul" the loudest usually has something to hide. Another great deal will come along with a more reasonable seller. I feel it is most important to protect your capital and that is what you did. Good move. MM >>

CoinOnTheCob

I wouldn’t feel a bit bad about not being able to tell the good fakes. I will be the first to admit it. I bought a 1909–S VDB raw and sent it in to ANACS. Waiting for it to come back came with a high pucker factor because I was worried that it was fake. It was real but I still got burned because it had been cleaned and I thought it was AU/BU. I told this story to a dealer I know and he said that he tells people to beware and doesn’t guarantee their authenticity.
COTC

MAD4MORGANS

Bruce,

I believe you did the right thing by passing up this buy. The seller may have got irritated, but I'm sure there are tons of sellers out there that have counterfeits and are unaware. He may be one of them...or not!

I wouldn't even look back on this one. You may feel a little bad about passing on this one but as you indicated your business may have suffred greatly if it turned out to be a bad coin.

Better safe than sorry!!

jdimmick

If you are not sure, its always best to pass. Most of the folks will tell you this as most of the time, you usually will come out ahead, but not always. I have passed on gold issues in the past, only to find out that I missed a real opportunity. It made me realize that I need to spend more time, study and learn that series, etc.

IMO, if you are going to be a dealer, specialize in coins, or make great buying opportunities from the public, you will have to get comfortable with buying items raw, or you will lose a great many more opportunities in the future. Many people are looking to sell and want cash on the spot, or they will take thier coins elsewhere. You cant simply expect people (especially walk-ups. walk-ins, etc ) to wait and see. The best thing is to learn as many of the series as you can, especially key-date diagnostics,etc. And buy with caution as you continue to learn, but do take the time to learn.

jim

Oh by the way, I just notice this was post 2500, so I hope it was beneficial!!!!!!

Prethen

To be honest, I'm going to work my heart out to get real familiar with some of the raw key dates like the S-VDB and 14D. I don't want to pass up on too many deals like this. The obvious fakes will be the "easy" ones; I'll be most interested in talking and working with dealers that have their hands (hopefully currently) on the good fakes.

I appreciate everyone's comments.




<< <i>If you are not sure, its always best to pass. Most of the folks will tell you this as most of the time, you usually will come out ahead, but not always. I have passed on gold issues in the past, only to find out that I missed a real opportunity. It made me realize that I need to spend more time, study and learn that series, etc.

IMO, if you are going to be a dealer, specialize in coins, or make great buying opportunities from the public, you will have to get comfortable with buying items raw, or you will lose a great many more opportunities in the future. Many people are looking to sell and want cash on the spot, or they will take thier coins elsewhere. You cant simply expect people (especially walk-ups. walk-ins, etc ) to wait and see. The best thing is to learn as many of the series as you can, especially key-date diagnostics,etc. And buy with caution as you continue to learn, but do take the time to learn.

jim

Oh by the way, I just notice this was post 2500, so I hope it was beneficial!!!!!! >>

kranky

I remember reading somewhere that instead of learning the diagnostics of the fakes, it's better to learn the diagnostics of the genuine article. That way you won't be fooled by a new and improved fake.

clw54

If I were selling raw keys and was sure of their authenticity, I wouldn't be a least bit offended if the buyer wanted authentication.

Elcontador

Even the best get fooled by fakes occasionally. I brought a well made fake 1875 CC Trade $ to a major show, and most of the dealers thought it was genuine.

I won't buy anything raw. But, I'm a collector. There's usually a very good reason why a scarce coin is raw. Unless you're an EAC copper guy, usually, the reason is that the coin won't slab.

If someone brings in a raw coin and you explain to him / her that it is worth more -- you can pay much more for it -- if it is authenticated, any rational person should go along with the program. OTOH, if the person wants his money now, chances are, you have a bad situation. As J Dimmick said, you may occasionally lose a deal with an attitude like this. But I think more often than not, you'll save sua bunda by taking this attitude.