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Original toning - a somewhat iconoclastic view

PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
I've been fortunate to own some very nice Flying Eagle cents and have seen a lot of different degrees of luster, strike, toning and overall eye appeal or lack thereof. The most desirable are usually coins with excessive luster and certain homogeneity of color. While I agree that these traits make for great eye appeal, on rare occasions one comes across the Flyer that, at first glance anyway, may not look like it should be in a high-grade holder. The 1858 PCGS MS-65 Small Letters (in MS-65 and above the SL variety is about three times more scare than the large letters variety) pictured below is one such coin. However, coins like the one below possess what I consider to be completely original, never messed with toning. The coin has oxidized heterogeneously with some areas very lustrous and possessing high reflectivity, while other areas are duller or at least more subtle in tone and color.

Under magnification the oxidation is uneven but, like much in nature that is not perfect, under both natural and artificial lighting, the coin looks like a miniature work of art. I rarely see very high-grade flyers with the look of this coin. Coins like the one pictured below grow on you as you look at them in various lights and at different angles. Like a kaleidoscope, the coin has many different personalities, rather than the ever constant look of the highly lustrous but homogeneous Flyer that is most often desired in high grades. Personally, I prefer one of these multifaceted coins because they will always look a little different in any given lighting situation. They are much harder to find than the MS-65 and above homogeneous gems that are so strongly sought after in the market.

I'm not criticizing the high-grade flyers with uniform luster over their entire surfaces, I’m just suggesting that sometimes real personality includes beauty and a little ugliness, luster and plainness, something sweet and something a little sour. The dealer I purchased the coin from is one of the best in the business with an eye second to none. She thought this coin has a a unique personality, and after owning it for sometime now I agree. I’m suggesting that sometimes in numismatics the real finds can be made when the collector takes a somewhat contrarian view.

1858 PCGS SL MS-65. The reverse photo does more justice to the coin.

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Comments

  • clw54clw54 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭
    Welcome back.
  • FullHornFullHorn Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭✭✭
    after reading this I had to go play a tune from Emerson Lake and Palmer called Iconoclast, then I thought of your old icon with the cats with pointy ears that was cool, and I agree that some coins have a look that a grade can never replace.
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,781 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>sometimes real personality includes beauty and a little ugliness, luster and plainness, something sweet and something a little sour. >>


    I couldn't agree with you more.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,117 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great post! I can't concede that your views are contrarian, at least for the long term. This coin has personality. Attractive coins with original skin and toning have staying power and will always be in demand, even if a bit out of favor in the current market. I'm waiting for michael to respond to this one because he'll be able to convey much more pursuasively than I can why you are spot on.
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm waiting for michael >>



    Michael is a numismatic treasure. I wish I possessed 1/2 of his knowledge. image
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    That coin sure is sweet!!!
  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977
    Great post Pushkin, and welcome back.

    I don't know much about your series and how people mess with copper. But in the two series I collect, Dahlonega Gold and Classic Commems, it is getting real tough to find nice original coins. The TPGs will with time destroy the remaining supply. They will do so not by directly altering the coins, although we all know both are guilty of the fact, but by the marketing of the registry programs and their rewarding the processed coins with higher grades. I have seen many wonderful original Dahlonega pieces sell at auction in AU holders, get dipped, stripped, and submitted only to be rewarded with a MS grade. Dammit! These beauties are dropping like flies. Until the TPGs stop rewarding this crap, it will continue until no originals are left. And the truth is they will never stop because this increases their bottom line. Unfortunately we collectors have no power in this game.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
    Fatman, I think you make an interesting point. If the analogy holds with your series and Flying Eagle cents, than what I see is the TPGs rewarding "luster". I don't know how many times I've heard "with a little more luster and you know who will slab it up one grade" and magically the coin appears in the correct plastic, up one grade. This doesn't bother me that much, it just makes me suspicious of the old toning arguments and how the TPGs are viewed as a universal solution to the AT problem - well maybe, maybe not, depending on wheather one considers the addition of luster as a form of toning. Anyway, I don't want to get into that argument, luster is nice and it seems to be accepted. My bottom line is I think too many high end coins are starting to look the same and the depletion of the diversity pool is something that is not good for the hobby - just my crazy opinion.
  • FatManFatMan Posts: 8,977
    Oh, I forgot to mention how much I love the look of your Flying Eagle above. That is certainly what I would think un-messed with copper should look like after 150 years.

    I am curious about your statement regarding "adding luster" to copper. I know with gold it can be tinkered with to make it brighter, but it doesn't add luster as it is my understanding that luster is only created by metal flow during minting. Is it a brightening that is accomplished or is there some technique that actually adds luster to copper.
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    thanks pushkin and ronyahski you are both good guys and i got you both fooled but i must say you always got something nice to say about everyone and are both class acts from your posts

    well for me this is a really unusual beautiful way above average eye appreal flyer and not only a true gem ms65+ but a small letters to bootimage

    smallletters bottoms of a m do not touch so it is a really good variety as you do not have to be a genius or need a glass and an imagination to see this and see how well the eagle is struck it is simply amazing and how the ruffles on the eagles neck are really pronounced

    the original surfaces are simply incredible and the eye appeal better than way above average!!! no streaks or stains and just wonderfuyl color on the obverse the breast strike and the eagle is one of the best i have ever seen on a small letters***** and this coin technically marks wise is a high end ms65 and colorwise a 66 eye appealwise a 66+ str it is just amazing to say the least

    the coloring of the reverse is superb and just nicely even with no streaks and stains and it is a really nice ms65 aND the reverse and somewhat the obverse are the usual small letters strike
    this coin is as nice an ms65 as you are going to get in a ms65 holder and is worth a premium but since coins that look like this are hard to find really hard and many collectors have not seen as such and also for demand you need supply it is a coin that is misunderstood and not known by many collectors and so it is a sleeper coin and then it is a small latters to bootimage

    it is on the reverse the high leaf variety if i am not mistaken too see how the leaf to the right of the cin cent extends past the bottom of the c? this it the high leaf variety

    and the high leaf is scarcer than the low leaf so not only is this small letters it is high leaf to boot way cool

    oh the lustre is really good on this coin hence this is because it was not ever dipped or cleaned looks fantastic to me

    looks to me to be the closed e in one also

    get this the majority of smallletters flyers are of the low leaf variety
    this is the high leaf and small latters so as a die variety and no less in gem it is an extremely uncommon
    coin as such

    if the revrerse is slightly doubled on your coin pushkin you got a really rare coin

    me thinks some of these biz strike coins smallletters where struck with proof dies!!! might this be one of them at least the obverse?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    respectfully submitted and my thoughts on the above as such

    image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Until the TPGs stop rewarding this crap, it will continue until no originals are left. And the truth is they will never stop because this increases their bottom line. Unfortunately we collectors have no power in this game.

    We have plenty of power. We can reward originality by seeking it and paying for it. We can protect our coins as long as we own them. And we can educate newbies that might otherwise provide a market for dipped and stripped trash.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,253 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW, nice obverse doubling on the cent.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    image

    Edited to add: Some of us have very long memories.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    Michael,

    This picture is of one of the 1858 Large Letters proof like Flyers. The diagnostic that it is not a proof is the die crack from the tip of the eagle's wing through the A of AMERICA. A few hairlines in the fields below the eagle's breast and above the date appear to limit the grade, although they require magnification.

    1858 NGC Large Letters "Proof Like" MS-63
    image

    image

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