Huh? Absent coercion or other skullduggery, the price the coin sold for is, by definition, its market value.
A market can be as limited as two people negotiating privately, or as broad as a major public auction, but there is no place where all players participate. So "the market" is bigger than any marketplace. So a price set in one marketplace may or may not approximate the true "market value". For example, if a 93-S dollar in 65 sells for $30 on eBay because the seller listed it under "lingerie", I'm unwilling to accept that that is the market price. It's just a transaction price. Similarly, if a coin sells at ANR for 10K to a dealer that was willing to pay 20K, and he immediately sells it to a completely ignorant client for 300K, I'm unwilling to accept that any of those three prices represent the true "market price".
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There are only offers to buy, offers to sell, and transaction prices.
This by definition is a market.
Similarly, if a coin sells at ANR for 10K to a dealer that was willing to pay 20K, and he immediately sells it to a completely ignorant client for 300K
You can use extremes as this, however that does not illustrate a non-market. It just shows illiquidity. Which with the exception of a few series is exactly what the coin market is.
1) Congrats to the SELLER who bought the coin, cracked it out, and got a higher grade with a higher profit. The first owner should have cracked it in the first place. Too bad.
2) What does Heritage's pictures have to do with this? A "poorer" Heritage picture sold the coin for $40,000 more??? Do you actually buy a coin for this much by the PICTURE???
3) The market value of a coin is NOT based on the final auction price. Do you actually think this coin is worth $83,000+ after this thread???
4) Sue PCGS for WHAT??? Subjectiveness against what YOUR opinion is?
There are crack out money-makers all over, and a lot of you seem to know what the grade of every coin is. HA! Then mortgage your home and buy coins like this, crack 'em, regrade for your big score if you are so sure.
<< <i>Congrats to the SELLER who bought the coin, cracked it out, and got a higher grade with a higher profit. The first owner should have cracked it in the first place. Too bad. >>
<< <i>Congrats to the SELLER who bought the coin, cracked it out, and got a higher grade with a higher profit. The first owner should have cracked it in the first place. Too bad. >>
Lloyd is a good Ferengi.
Russ, NCNE >>
Who hasn't had this happen before? In principal, I don't see anything wrong here. If you own a coin and you know it should be in a higher grade holder -- keep resubmitting, hold it for awhile, or try to sell it in the current holder as PQ.
I had a coin I paid $550 for and traded it to another board member in a multi-coin deal. He got it upgraded and then sold it for around $5k. That's the biggest spread I know of that I have missed out on. Was I mad? If I was, it wasn't at him. I was actually happy for him. Granted it was no $36k upgrade, but $4,500 is still plenty of money to me.
<< <i>That could very easily be a misaligned die, and likely is. >>
A valid point well made and taken into consideration, but in this case, if the die were misaligned (take the obverse perimeter...the stars) how would you explain what appears to be wear on the reverse basically in the middle of the coin? If you're misaligned and one half of a given side is weak then the other half of the same side would be very distinct/ pronounced...almost as in high relief.
OK, now if the coin is misaligned the way we are speaking of, then how is it that the MIDDLE of the flip side exhibits what appears to be wear? If the coin is somewhat tilted/ misaligned then it would stand to reason that the same has transpired conversely on the flip side, not ( in this case) be weak in the middle of a section in the shield area and across the ribbon where the motto is. Only way to explain that part is 1) wear or 2) "struck through" some sort of debris or grease on the hub.
As for never seeing a well struck problem free 62, I have just the coin to disprove this as an ultimate truism, although generally I would agree that there is a thin line between 58 and 62 it is not etched in stone. If someone wants to post the pic I will email it to them and they can have the honors. The coin is very well, very sharply struck and it would seem that it was made to suffer due to the presence of die polish lines, which of course are raised and therefore cannot be mistaken for improper cleaning lines which are dug into the coin's surface. Let me take the picture in case someone volunteers.
Sorry if I didn't explain this very well but I'm sorta in a hurry to get away from this box for while... to get outdoors and enjoy this nice day Bar-B-Queing. Let me find that PCGS 62 first. Excuse the typos, if any, trying to rush outa here.
Comments
Huh? Absent coercion or other skullduggery, the price the coin sold for is, by definition, its market value.
Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.
A market can be as limited as two people negotiating privately, or as broad as a major public auction, but there is no place where all players participate. So "the market" is bigger than any marketplace. So a price set in one marketplace may or may not approximate the true "market value". For example, if a 93-S dollar in 65 sells for $30 on eBay because the seller listed it under "lingerie", I'm unwilling to accept that that is the market price. It's just a transaction price. Similarly, if a coin sells at ANR for 10K to a dealer that was willing to pay 20K, and he immediately sells it to a completely ignorant client for 300K, I'm unwilling to accept that any of those three prices represent the true "market price".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
PCGS merely guarantees the MINIMUM grade, not the maximum.
Without knowing how many times the green holder was submitted for review/upgrade, it's tough to be critical.
This by definition is a market.
Similarly, if a coin sells at ANR for 10K to a dealer that was willing to pay 20K, and he immediately sells it to a completely ignorant client for 300K
You can use extremes as this, however that does not illustrate a non-market. It just shows illiquidity. Which with the exception of a few series is exactly what the coin market is.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Real simple:
1) Congrats to the SELLER who bought the coin, cracked it out, and got a higher grade with a higher profit. The first owner should have cracked it in the first place. Too bad.
2) What does Heritage's pictures have to do with this? A "poorer" Heritage picture sold the coin for $40,000 more??? Do you actually buy a coin for this much by the PICTURE???
3) The market value of a coin is NOT based on the final auction price. Do you actually think this coin is worth $83,000+ after this thread???
4) Sue PCGS for WHAT??? Subjectiveness against what YOUR opinion is?
There are crack out money-makers all over, and a lot of you seem to know what the grade of every coin is. HA! Then mortgage your home and buy coins like this, crack 'em, regrade for your big score if you are so sure.
-----Lloyd
<< <i>Congrats to the SELLER who bought the coin, cracked it out, and got a higher grade with a higher profit. The first owner should have cracked it in the first place. Too bad. >>
Lloyd is a good Ferengi.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Congrats to the SELLER who bought the coin, cracked it out, and got a higher grade with a higher profit. The first owner should have cracked it in the first place. Too bad. >>
Lloyd is a good Ferengi.
Russ, NCNE >>
Who hasn't had this happen before? In principal, I don't see anything wrong here. If you own a coin and you know it should be in a higher grade holder -- keep resubmitting, hold it for awhile, or try to sell it in the current holder as PQ.
I had a coin I paid $550 for and traded it to another board member in a multi-coin deal. He got it upgraded and then sold it for around $5k. That's the biggest spread I know of that I have missed out on. Was I mad? If I was, it wasn't at him. I was actually happy for him. Granted it was no $36k upgrade, but $4,500 is still plenty of money to me.
<< <i>That could very easily be a misaligned die, and likely is. >>
A valid point well made and taken into consideration, but in this case, if the die were misaligned (take the obverse perimeter...the stars) how would you explain what appears to be wear on the reverse basically in the middle of the coin? If you're misaligned and one half of a given side is weak then the other half of the same side would be very distinct/ pronounced...almost as in high relief.
OK, now if the coin is misaligned the way we are speaking of, then how is it that the MIDDLE of the flip side exhibits what appears to be wear? If the coin is somewhat tilted/ misaligned then it would stand to reason that the same has transpired conversely on the flip side, not ( in this case) be weak in the middle of a section in the shield area and across the ribbon where the motto is. Only way to explain that part is 1) wear or 2) "struck through" some sort of debris or grease on the hub.
As for never seeing a well struck problem free 62, I have just the coin to disprove this as an ultimate truism, although generally I would agree that there is a thin line between 58 and 62 it is not etched in stone. If someone wants to post the pic I will email it to them and they can have the honors. The coin is very well, very sharply struck and it would seem that it was made to suffer due to the presence of die polish lines, which of course are raised and therefore cannot be mistaken for improper cleaning lines which are dug into the coin's surface. Let me take the picture in case someone volunteers.
Sorry if I didn't explain this very well but I'm sorta in a hurry to get away from this box for while... to get outdoors and enjoy this nice day Bar-B-Queing.
Let me find that PCGS 62 first. Excuse the typos, if any, trying to rush outa here.