Counterfeit Trade Dollars

stev32k

There is an auction on ebay link for counterfeit trade dollars. If the seller had not said they were counterfeit in the description I would not have known. How can one tell the counterfeits from the real thing?

Also, I thought ebay rules said that auctions for copies or counterfeit coins must include that information in the auction title, or is it only required in the description?

vega1

I believe you have not an received answer because you have asked a question with an answer far too broad and complicated to go into here.

"How can you tell a counterfiet?" is along the lines of "how long is a piece of string?" or "what shape is a cloud?"

Read, learn, and examine. Go to the ANA seminar (something I've never had the chance to do, but would like to someday ) People study for many years to become competent at spotting counterfeit, something they would not need to do if it was easy.

So allow me to rephrase your question... How can you not buy a counterfiet coin on ebay? Until you learn how to spot fakes on your own, buying coins in a PCGS, NGC, or ANACS holder will drastically reduce the chances of you buying a fake coin builled as the real thing. If you must buy them raw, try to find a dealer you trust to help you make the right choices.

Hope this helps

Wekar

<< <i>"how long is a piece of string?" >>



Exact answer: twice the distance from the center to either end. This isn't a great answer though, and probably like saying you can detect a counterfeit by telling that it's not genuine.

and yes, eBay rules say counterfeit/copy needs to be in the title, this auction will get pulled if someone reports it.

stev32k

<< I believe you have not an received answer because you have asked a question with an answer far too broad and complicated to go into here.>>

Ok, sorry. I didn't realize it was that complicated. Guess I thought certain dates would have some specific marks, misplaced design, or some other visual means of identifying fakes. Also thought one could weigh or measure them, or maybe check the specific gravity.

Prethen

This is one area I'm very interested in as well. Trade dollars have begun to intrigue me more and more recently, but these coins have been counterfeited to death and some are pretty good. I like the idea of looking at ones in slabs and comparing them, but I agree that there must be some tell-tale signs that can assist.

vega1

<< <i>Guess I thought certain dates would have some specific marks, misplaced design, or some other visual means of identifying fakes. Also thought one could weigh or measure them, or maybe check the specific gravity. >>



Now *that* was a much more specific set of questions

Hopefully one the the experts here can provide some answers to those.

tradedollarnut

The easiest to detect are the 1877 - 1885 fakes with a Type I reverse [berry under eagle's claw]. Since no real coins were issued with a Type I reverse in these dates, but the fakes are common with them, it's a no brainer. Same is true for any 1873 or 1874 without the berry. In 1875 and 1876, both reverses were used so this technique does not apply. Another easy tell is when the last numeral of the date is much larger than the first 3 numbers.

Next easiest group is more of an overall feel for the coin. The denticles should be well struck and even. In most cases, there should be a period after FINE [one or two normal coins have no period, so this isn't automatic]. The zeros in 900 should be well formed and consistent in size.

Then it gets really hard to tell from a photo. There are fakes so good that only stray die tooling marks are a giveaway. This is for the pros.


The absolute best way to never buy a fake trade dollar off of ebay is to never buy a trade dollar off of ebay that isn't certified by one of the top tier services.

Prethen

It almost seems like you're saying either become an expert at identifying Trade Dollars (down to tooling marks) or buy only authenticated/slabbed stuff. Or, you could blindly trust certain dealers you like to do business with. I guess that could be somewhat dangerous. I guess even the best dealers get derailed on those.

MORGANHUNTER2

what else can be described on either a 73 or 77 S that would deem it fake- I'm pretty sure that both of mine are in fact fake- but you raised a query now with the date thing. Does anyone have a pic or 2 of a real 73 S and a real 77 S and then one that is fake?

I really owuld like to see them and then compare.

greghansen

I guess even the best dealers get derailed on those.

Not only the best dealers, but third party grading services as well. I have a slabbed trade dollar in a major third party graders slab (I won't identify) that has been determined to be counterfeit. It is a high quality cast counterfeit. Its status as a counterfeit could only be ascertained by the grading services after other coins surfaced with identical surface markings from the counterfeit die.

MORGANHUNTER2

Not only the best dealers, but third party grading services as well. I have a slabbed trade dollar in a major third party graders slab (I won't identify) that has been determined to be counterfeit. It is a high quality cast counterfeit. Its status as a counterfeit could only be ascertained by the grading services after other coins surfaced with identical surface markings from the counterfeit die.
<B>


Greg any pics of the coin in question- I would like to see the tell tale signs.
I got mine cheap considering- 20 each- because I told the 'dealer' they were fake and he did not bat an eyelash when I offered him 20 for each. he had em in a 2x2 flip with a price of $255. each.

</B>

stev32k

I may just start a counterfeit Trade Dollar collection. I think that is an interesting bit of coin history, I really like the design, and it might be a useful reference. Hmmm - wonder if ANACS or PCGS would certify counterfeit coins - I'd hate to buy a counterfeit and have it turn out to be genuine. LOL

wallstreetman

<< <i>I guess even the best dealers get derailed on those.

Not only the best dealers, but third party grading services as well. I have a slabbed trade dollar in a major third party graders slab (I won't identify) that has been determined to be counterfeit. It is a high quality cast counterfeit. Its status as a counterfeit could only be ascertained by the grading services after other coins surfaced with identical surface markings from the counterfeit die. >>



My guess is it's ANACS!

Coinosaurus

Coinosaurus

There are tons of these fakes. Gerry Fortin had an interesting article about buying some in Shanghai, a few issues ago in the Gobrecht Journal.

MAD4MORGANS

Here's a CoinWorld article that gives a few clues on how to tell counterfeit Trade Dollars:

COINWORLD ARTICLE

stev32k

Here is an 1877 Trade Dollar with the berries on the reverse Link Is this a counterfeit?

Here's another one - 1878-S Link is this one also a fake?

tradedollarnut

No - those are probably genuine [tho the second is probably AT]. You're looking in the wrong place for the berry in question. Look at the eagle's claw above 900 on those two coins .... there's no berry directly underneath. Look at the eagle's claw above 900 in the picture below ... there's a berry underneath it.

stev32k

Ha - I see. Thank you very much for the response.