1924-s Buffalo Nickel (Information thread for the un-informed))
jdimmick
Posts: 9,675 ✭✭✭✭✭
This coin was for sale at the local shop in our area? First give me your opinion on the grade and value, and secondly what do you think the shop owner graded it and his asking price?
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Comments
Coin Shop: XF-45 $950.00
Tom
Coin = hornless VF20 = value $200+++??
You = proud owner?
David
First, I did not purchase this coin, as I would have no intrest in it to be honest, however, I wanted to show how some local dealers make money on coins that are just below the break line in the price guides. I was prevy to this whole scenario from purchase to re-sale and here is how it went: (will call it an information thread)
This coin came into the local shop from a collector along with some other similar type items. The shop owner looks at this coin and grades it Fine. He explains to the seller that the lack of horn and amount of wear constitute at best a fine. He then proceeds to offer 15% back of f-12 money in the current cdn bid which is approx 60.00. The seller agrees and its a done deal.
Now a few days later, someone else is in looking for Buffalo nickels for a set. He notices the 24-s Buffalo in the showcase in a 2x2 labeled Vf-20 and priced at 335.00. This collector appears to have some knowledge, but not sure of his experience in buffalo nickels. Anyway, he looks at the coin for a little while and asks the dealer his best price on the coin. He is carrying the pricing guide from NN by the way. Here is what the dealer said " IMO, this coin just makes vf-20, but is one of those dates known to have a weak horn. I picked it up at a decent price and the best I can do is 300.00 on the coin. It's a nice problem free 24-s and looks as good as many of the Vf's I see in slabs, and they sell for about 350.00. After a few more minutes of looking it over, the buyer takes the coin and is on his way.
Now: Here are my thoughts. Isnt it funny how the grade can fluctuate depending on whether someone is buying or selling the same coin. There has always been the big discussion about whether a complete horn is needed to meet the minimum standards of being VF. Also, even though many of the TPG's will grade a coin VF without complete horns because of the overall wear (or lack of) of the coin, striking weakness, or worn out dies, IMO the price jump from F to VF for these dates is thier becuase most collectors expect the additional detail in those areas like the horn to be present for the significant additional premium.
IMO, I would have graded this coin a Fine, maybe a F-15, but thats it. This coin has a little too much wear in areas of the Indian hair, braids and headress and also on points on the buffalo to call it VF. I am not sure about the value, maybe a small premium over the Fine price but not anywhere close to vf money.
ebaylink
ebaylink2
Especially on a branch mint coin known to come less than well struck.
In either case the dealer has no ethics. The coin is probably worthy of some premium over the FINE price.
roadrunner
I looked at your two examples and I think they may have just a little less wear in the spots I indicated. Those look like vf coins to me, they are a little bit better than this coin.
Roadrunner,
I agree, definitely an ethics problem, but he is the go to guy in this area. So many people go to him for business, but most are not educated enough to realize that they are not getting what they think they are. I am working on a few of the folks, especially the club members to get them better informed on the daily dealings that go on at that shop.
Lastly, before putting that kind of $ down on a 24 S in VF, take a look and see how other details measure up with a mid to high VF coin.
Remember, no full horn, no one in the know will pay VF $ for it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
The market is generally quite efficient in pricing these coins as a 1923-S with a full strike will sell far in excess of the trends price no matter the "grade".
The VF, XF, etc grades are inefficient in describing these coins. Descriptions of the coins or better yet, also detailed photographs are really mandatory to assess the coin's value.
While I agree with the gist of the above the problem is what do the price guides represent?
The price guides to my knowledge have always been for FULL horn VF's NOT incomplete horns. That's why there is such a huge jump from F to VF for those dates where the full horn is scarce and deserving of the price. There are many many more "VF's" without the full horn than with the full horn and therefore are not deserving of the full horn price.
Joe. IMO
Edit: As far as the coin above it is a very nice F+ definitely deserving of more than fine money but nowhere near VF money. As far as the dealer, are you really shocked? It's done all the time, not by all but by many from my experience. The grade changes for most people depending on whether they are the buyer or seller. Human nature?
Joe, for those Buffalos dates which are usually weakly struck they loosely represent a starting point for pricing a coin that has been market graded. They most certainly do not represent a coin with a strong strike.
It's somewhat akin to using the "blue book" base price to value a used car before adding/subtracting the other pricing factors such as mileage, body condition, etc.
In Lange's guide to Buffalo Nickels he addresses this very issue and writes in his book that those prices are for FULL horn specimens.
It is relatively easy to find those soft-struck dates in a non-full horn "VF". Those coins do not deserve the lofty prices listed for VF (full horn). IMO and apparentely Lange's.
I would suggest to anyone considering purchasing Buffalo Nickels for lofty prices in VF to make sure it has a FULL Horn and dispense with the "stories" about weak strikes. I believe this statement will serve the collector well.
Joe. Again, IMO.
I linked onto the two Ebay offerings and they do resemble the raw coin. However, as UncleJoe mentions, we should ignore the stories of weak strikes and consider the amount of horn on the reverse to determine the coin's true grade.
The dealer Jim refers to is the type of dealer with whom I would never want to work with. If he thought so highly of the coin when he was selling it, why didn't he think highly of it when he was buying it ? Greed. Pure and simple. One of the reasons I rarely buy raw coins from dealers I don't know. Also, I don't buy marginal coins in mid grade circulated condition.
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I believe that what Lange said was for certain buffalo nickels: "In the highly sought grade of VF, this coin should display the full length of the bison's horn, yet it rarely does........In all other aspects, the coin still grades VF, and will often be priced as such by the seller."
He also says: " In practice, coins that meet most of the criteria for the assignment of a particular grade will usually receive that grade and may be valued in accordance with current price guides. This is particularly true of dates that are in demand but are often found inadequately struck."
My experience with Lange's prices for the weakly struck dates going back to the year 2000, the last date for prices in his book, was that they reflected the market price for typical weak strike coins and not coins with better strikes.
In my opinion one of the problems today is that while Lange said, "....coins that meet MOST of the criteria for the assignment of a particular grade will usually receive that grade...." is now being interpreted as coins that meet SOME or ANY of the criteria, particularly in the case of VF and XF buffalo nickels.
I sometimes think (in a moment of grading frustration) that some buffalo nickels should not be given a grade but rather only a price by the seller and the buyer should determine if he wants to acquire the coin at that price. While the use of grades does serve a purpose, too often the grade determines value which in my mind is just too simplistic. Eye appeal just may be a better way to go.
While it would be great to require that a VF buffalo nickel have a full horn, the market has chosen not to do so. That said, there are some buffalos in every date which have a full horn. You just may have to look for them for sale as AU coins.
Another growing problem by the way is the interpretation of what is meant by a full horn. A full horn used to mean that the tip of the horn was clearly visible and the horn came to a point. Unfortunately the new definition of a full horn is becoming a horn tip that looks like an arc of a circle.
I think your statement that if you are going to pay a lofty price for a VF coin it should have a full horn is good advice. As a collector one should set one's own grading criteria and not be distracted by those who disagree with it. But be aware of all the pitfalls that may result from doing so.
You should not purchase a coin of that magnitude with it being without question of the proper grade and exactly what you are looking for. This is where knowledge is important.
Buffalo nickles are not something I know much about, have a low grade piece and a roll of low grade ones but those cost me hardly anything so.
So I would say either the seller was stupid and/or the buyer was stupid. The dealer was just making as much cash as possible and they are buisness people looking to make a buck that is why you need to know things.