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Who Is The Best Ever - Basketball
frankhardy
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Did anybody catch what Allen Iverson said after he won the All Star Game MVP? He said that "Shaq is the greatest basketball player ever."
Don't get me wrong, Shaq is dominating, without a doubt. But all the guy does is dunk.
If you could grap a player from any era to start your all time team, who would it be.
I would have to go with Michael Jordan - NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
Don't get me wrong, Shaq is dominating, without a doubt. But all the guy does is dunk.
If you could grap a player from any era to start your all time team, who would it be.
I would have to go with Michael Jordan - NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
Shane
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There, how did I do?
Shane
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Shaq
5) Bill Russell
6) Julius Erving
7) Larry Bird
8) Magic Johnson
<< <i>If you could grap a player from any era to start your all time team, who would it be.
I would have to go with Michael Jordan - NO QUESTIONS ASKED. >>
Michael Jordan isn't even the best point guard I've ever seen........that honor would have to go to Kim Mulkey, point guard for the Lady Techsters of Louisiana Tech from 1980-1984!
He makes everyone around him better...look at his teams that won championships...no true center.
And is there anyone else in the league EVER you'd want taking the last shot of the game?
The phenomenal scoring, tenacious defense, and ability to make his teammates' abilities scale up with his, easily he's the best ever.
The other players all have a legit shot at "second best all time player"
If you are looking for the Most Valuable Player to his team and the player that makes those around him better that answer is Bill Russell.
Russell played 13 seasons and won 11 championships. The two years the C's did not win the title was when Russell was hurt in the final - and his first year as player/coach. Before he arrived the Celtics never won a title and the year after he retired the Celtics did not even make the play-offs.
Michael Jordan - he left for a year in his prime to play Baseball. In 1992-93 Jordan and the Bulls won 57 games. In 1993-94 when Jordan missed the entire season to play baseball the Bulls won 55 games. A two game difference - granted they did not win the Championship without him, but a difference of 2 games. When Larry Bird was injured and missed an entire season the Celtics won 41 games. The year before with Bird they won 57 games and the year after he returned they won 52 games. A 16 game difference and an 11 game difference is what you should see if you are talking about somebody making their teammates better.
Jordan was not a point guard. He was a shooting guard.
Shane
<< <i>DirtyDog48,
Jordan was not a point guard. He was a shooting guard. >>
Thanks for that clarification....Kim was still better!.......in fact, Dawn Staley was/is better too!
Shane
<< <i>Sure Shaq scores a ton of points, but he stands under the basket and just dunks the dang ball for an easy 2 points when he gets the ball, which by the way is easy for his teammates to get the ball to him because he;s 7ft. tall and not many people are gonna jump higher than him. >>
Your basically saying Shaq's unstoppable. Doesn't that show his greatness? His game is not as fun to watch as Jordan's was but I feel it is just as, if not more effective. Shaq's only real problem is his inability on free throw line - that definitely hurts his cause for the best ever.
BUT Bird and Magic were great players AND made
every team mate much better. That is a mark of greatness.
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If you put Shaq playing in that era, he would average 40 to 50 points and 20 rebounds, not just one year, but EVERY YEAR. That's not to mention what Jordan would do. They would all stand around in awe and watch him.
Shane
Hmmm - Chamberlain was 7' 1" tall - so you're saying that Bill Russell and everybody else was only 3' 6 1/2" tall - no wonder Chamberlain dominated with a height advantage like that.
Look - you know I'm kidding about that, but I'm not kidding when saying that Chamberlain was not only the greatest ever in basketball, but the greatest ever to dominate an organized team sport. There were RULE CHANGES made because of Chamberlain. Chamberlain has so many unbreakable records. Everybody knows about the 100 point game, etc., but I think the most unbelievable stat is a little known fact that he never fouled out in a game - just incredible. Chamberlain was the best ever and nobody else is even close.
<< <i><<< He was twice as big as anybody in the league. >>>
Hmmm - Chamberlain was 7' 1" tall - so you're saying that Bill Russell and everybody else was only 3' 6 1/2" tall - no wonder Chamberlain dominated with a height advantage like that.
Look - you know I'm kidding about that, but I'm not kidding when saying that Chamberlain was not only the greatest ever in basketball, but the greatest ever to dominate an organized team sport. There were RULE CHANGES made because of Chamberlain. Chamberlain has so many unbreakable records. Everybody knows about the 100 point game, etc., but I think the most unbelievable stat is a little known fact that he never fouled out in a game - just incredible. Chamberlain was the best ever and nobody else is even close. >>
I always look upon debates on the greatest as defined by "who dominated the most in his/her time". Genetics, training, diet, sport evolution will keep producing better and better athletes and performances.
A pro game is 48 minutes. Wilt had seasons averaging OVER 48 minutes per game !!! Will anyone ever come close to this ??? As a rookie he set the ALL-TIME single season scoring average. He later broke it and of course, he STILL holds the record... OVER 50 points per game AVERAGE for an entire season !!!
Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Jerry West perhaps, would complete my all-time five player team.
Michael Jordan. Nobody could do the things he could do on a Basketball court.
Nobody accomplished more with less help from his team mates (Pippen was heartless and over rated, he rode Jordans coat tails like everybody else.)
Nobody else could put his team on his shoulders and carry them to Championship after Championship.
Great defense overshadowed by jaw dropping offense. The most complete player to ever lace up sneakers.
Ice water in his veins. He not only would stick the knife in but twist it so the wound wouldn't close.
HOF Quarterbacks Football
<< <i>1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Shaq
5) Bill Russell
6) Julius Erving
7) Larry Bird
8) Magic Johnson >>
I'd move Shaq and Bill Russel to 8 and 9. I'd insert The Big O in at 7.
Those same heartless and over rated teammates won 55 games without him. I doubt there is any other top 10 player in NBA history that you could remove from their team in their prime and their team would still win 55 games.
I beg to differ. You remove Bill Russell, and the Celtics still win championships. You remove Larry Bird, and the Celtics are still a major contender. You remove Magic Johnson, and the Lakers are still contending in the West.
That year, the Bulls had Scottie Pippen in his prime, Phil Jackson as the coach, and a decent player named Toni Kukoc. But most important, they had great chemistry that year.
Just ask every one of these guys, "Who is the greatest player you have ever seen?" I'd bet that every one of them would say, "Michael Jordan."
Larry Bird called him , "God, disguised as Michael Jordan", which is taking it just a bit far, though. All of those guys were great in their time, but Michael Jordan was so far ahead of his time that nobody knew what to do with him.
Shane
The 1950-1960 Celtics without Bill Russell did not win championships. Before he arrived they never won a title. The year after he left they did not even make the play-offs. When he was injured in the finals they lost to St. Louis. He made everybody around him significantly better.
Larry Bird was removed from the Celtics for one season. The year before with Bird the C's won 57 games and went to the Eastern Conference finals. The next season Bird was injured and missed all but six games. The Celtics won 41 games, qualified as the 8th seed, and were quickly dispatched in the first round. Bird also proved in college how good he was at making everybody around him that much better. He took a team at Indiana State with 4 role players to the National Championship. Certainly if you polled 100 basketball players or fans - all 100 would probably take Jordan over Bird but if you were giving them each 4 role players Bird's team would probably have a much better season.
The Lakers were a contender without Magic but not for a title like the Bulls were without Michael.
I'm going to say Kurt Rambis, B.J. Armstrong, Will Perdue, John Paxson, and Michael Cooper as the best ever. How many rings between them? They must have been doing something right to win all those titles, and they must have made the players around them better. I guess that team beats a team of Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, Iverson, and Barkley. None of those players knew how to win, or make the players around them better. Great argument.
The funny thing about it is that Michael Jordan was in that category of Barkley etc... for a good many years, that is a guy who can't win a title. Thats all I heard, he can't win this he can't win that. The funny thing is that Jordan was a better player before he won any titles. He was far superior defensively, and unstoppable offensively. He passed just as much pre title years as during the post title years. The only difference was that the guys he had on his team in the title years actually did stuff that wins basketball games. Now all of a sudden Jordan is a winner, all because he got better teammates.
So, to all those 'title' guys you get Kurt Rambis, and the others, and I'll take the mailman and others, because hey, those other guys know how to win.
MJ is the real answer, followed by Bird, Jabbar, Magic, then you guys can argue and fill in the rest. Shaq needs to be able to hit some free throws to avoid being a liability and non factor in the last minute of the game to even be considered the best. Any good opposing coach easily takes away Shaq's team's best asset in the final minute(Shaq himself), because he can't hit throws consistently enough.
there is no debating this.....
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This guy won in High School, at UCLA, in the NBA in Milwakee and LA - and scored more points than anyone else
Russell
The guy was a mere 6 foot 6, weighing 205, could take the ball from you like he thought it belonged to him, could make a defender break his ankle and misplace his jock with his crossover, could shoot his undefendable fadeaway from 20+, could dunk from anywhere in the lane, and could find the open man when the situation warranted it... only thing is, he'd do ALL of these most incredible things to behold at least once a quarter for the better part of his career. Opponents DID end up just standing around watching in awe much of the time, not because he was too large or tall to defend, not because he played on the best team, but because he knew he was the best and worked very hard to stay the best.
How anyone can choose someone other than MJ is beyond me... basketball hasn't been the same without him imo.
Shane
If you are debating that because Bill Russell played on a fine oiled machine with many good players around him, and that because of that he didn't put up the numbers that he may have if he was the focal point of a lesser team, then you have something. But, just to say he has more championships, therefore he is better, is not enough otherwise Kurt Rambis is better than Karl Malone.
Basketball and Football aren't like baseball. You can use the stats in baseball and get an accurate analysis, because of the nature of the game. In basketball guys can accumulate points at the expense of a team, so the stats in basketball aren't as definitive. Its not like in baseball where a guy can say, well I think I'm going to be selfish and hit myself 70 homers and pound out 270 hits, because baseball is a selfish game, and that type of output would be incredible for a team.
Compare to a basketball player saying, I think I'm going to go out and score 50 points a game. Well, that doesn't necessarily mean good results for the team, as most likely, the other players are getting frozen out of the game, and you are passing up good percentage scoring opportunites from them, just so you can attempt lots of low scoring percentage opportunites for yourself.
Bill Russell could have easily scored more points if he took more shots, who wouldn't if they took more shots? But he allowed higher percentage shots for other players while he played stelllar defense, grabbed rebounds, and shot in opportune times. Use that as an argument against Chamberlain, NOT the generic he won 11 championsships, because those championships don't come without the help of some of Hall of Fame teammates, and having the ball bounce your way and catching the breaks in the playoffs(the good fortune/randomnness factor).
In football, Dan Marino has much greater numbers than John Elway and for the longest time, he was far more popular than Elway. However, as soon, as Elway won two Super Bowls, their popularity became more comparable. Sure, Elway relied on a strong running back and he had nothing to do with how the defense played. Nonetheless, why winning two Super Bowls, he put himself arguably at a higher plane than Marino.
I think your comparison of Karl Malone and Kurt Rambis is faulty. Rambis was a part of several championship teams, but on any team, there are one or two players that the team rely on. On Rambis' Laker teams, they relied on Magic and Kareem and to a certain extent Worthy. On the Auerbach Celtic teams, the go to guys were Russell and Cousy and later Havilcek. In team sports, the go to guy is the one that defines the team. Russell stood out even anomg Hall of Famers as the cog in the wheel that enabled the team to win the champioships. Just as you don't think Bill Cartright or Scottie Pippen when you think Bulls, most fans do not automatically think Cousy or Havilcek when they think Celtics.
Hence 11 championships > 6 championships
Russell
IMO
You brought up John Elway, and he is the poster boy for what I am talking about. Dan Marino was the superior qb, and he always was, and always will be. John Elway was known as a choker, and couldn't win the big one all his career until he fell into two Super Bowls. Elway didn't all of a sudden get better and that is why they won the super bowl. His skills stayed the same, and his teammates got better. SO WHY THE HECK SHOULD HE ALL OF A SUDDEN BE EXHAULTED HIGHER THAN MARINO BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME?
Don't mistake players wanting to be involved in the fun and excitement of being on a championship team, and using that to say player x is better than player y simply because he was in the right situation. They are forced to do that because of the faulty analysis people like you throw out there.
This stuff is soo elementary it is ridiculous. I will give you the same assignment I gave other people. FIND OUT HOW MANY NFL TEAMS WON THE SUPER BOWL WITH A BELOW AVERAGE DEFENSE. THEN FIND OUT HOW MANY WON WITH A TOP TEN DEFENSE. Before you continue to post on your ridiculous notion, do that research and see what conclusions you draw.
Then figure out why Brett Favre, who won a super bowl, but cannot do crap in the playoffs in the last five seasons and not even win home games when they were unbeatable at home. Did he forget how to win championships?????? I will give you a hint, it is because he doesn't have the best defense in the NFL behind Reggie White anymore. If Favre had never had a good defense he WOULD NEVER HAVE A SUPER BOWL EITHER!!! And he wouldn't have any bearing on how good he was, but what circumstance he was in. He never would have been known as a great 'clutch' performer and all the garbage Hollywood accolades announcers use to inspire the same posters I am having to try and unbrainwash.
IF Terry Bradshaw never had the Steeler curtain he would never have a super bowl either!
If Bill Russell's teammates were Dicky Simpkins, Ron Harper, Mark Bryant, Brent Barry , he wouldn't have a championship either, but it wouldn't make him any better or worse of a player. But it would make his teams worse, as opposed to having Bill Sharman, Heinsohn, Cousy, later Havlicek. He may have scored more points, but he would not have been a league leader because he wasn't a special offensive player. He may have just been Dennis Rodman.
There are soo many variables of what goes into a championship, and 80% of them are out of an individual players control, so how on earth do you make valid comparisons among players where they don't even control 80% of what is going on. To see if I am talking with a knowledgeable person, I will let you begin to list all the variables, then I will add the key ones that I know will be bypassed, as they usuallly are.
God, it is soo evident how people need to believe in heros and rising to the occasion, and it is soo evident how announcers and writers propogate these things, and soo many people just fall right in line and can't see it.
Doesn't anyone remember how Jordan would just take over the game and the rock in the 4th quarter? There was absolutely nothing that any of the opposing players could do about it... he had a decent support crew in the other four on the floor (Bill Cartwright was Bulls' "big man"???lol), but he was the only guy since besides the aforementioned big men that could just dominate you night in, night out when it mattered most.. the more important the game, the better Jordan seemed to play... I think we all miss Jordan so much that none of us wanna even bother replaying in our minds some of the feats he pulled off in his prime...we all just got kinda used to it... the NBA will never be the same imo, but this Lebron kid is the closest thing to Jordan since Jordan.
Jordan 7 days a week and twice on sunday for me...
Also - Bill Russell has stated many times that Chamberlain was better than himself.
11 championships > 2 championships
<< <i>
This stuff is soo elementary it is ridiculous. >>
I thought you knew what you were talking about until I read this:
<< <i>"11 championships > 6" only makes a difference if you were debating the merits of Martina Navritilova and Billy Jean King. >>
You might not think so, but winning championships matter to the players and fans of pro team sports too.
Bill Russell didn't brag but he wasn't modest either. He told it like it is. He said Chamberlain was better than himself because it was true. Hey - the championship thing can't be argued but the thread says "Who is the best ever - Basketball" and the answer is Wilt Chamberlain.
Bill Russell, Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan....
They all won NCAA championships except for Wilt's loss in three OTs in the championship game. The Bill Russell led San Francisco Dons won 56 straight games and Lew Alcindor's UCLA won three straight NCAA championships.
I hate leaving Larry Bird out and I don't think Jordan belongs with the other three...tough, tough question.
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