I'm an idiot - but I'm also pissed how PSA could grade this an 8

kennylow

I was stupid enough to buy this 1970 Topps PSA 8 Mays card without looking at the scan carefully. The seller did nothing wrong, he posted a scan, and I should have been more careful. I'm not blaming him at all.

I blame myself for not seeing the problem...and I also blame PSA for grading a card like this as an 8. What are my recourses?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5161415372

There are three possibilities :
1. I am wrong, and 1970 Topps were regularly cut on top this way (look at the line on the top).
2. I was an idiot and purchased a bad PSA card.
3. PSA is responsible for slabbing this card an 8.

doncherry

mays link

kingraider75

It's too bad, but I would think you are stuck. The scan shows the line, and it's been slabbed an 8.

There are other 1970's with that same line at the top, but I have usually seen them on cards that were a bit O/C.

I have no idea what PSA would do? Give you an qualifier or grade it lower maybe?

Guess it would have been nice if the seller had mentioned the line, but it's been graded so I guess he figured why bother with that.

DaBigHurt

The Mays card looks good to me. I don't see what the problem is. Just accept the card and be satisifed with what you have.

kennylow

in case anyone missed what I'm talking about, there is a white line on the top of the card. It looks like that's where the card should have been cut. look at the larger picture and you'll see it.

So are you guys saying this is not a problem for 1970 cards? That if the rest of the card was PSA 8 quality that this should be PSA 8 too? Obviously I don't know anything about 1970 cards, I just bought this card to further my Mays collection. If that line is "normal" or "ok", then I am shocked.

As for the seller - like I said, I don't hold him to anything - it was slabbed, and he showed a pic...the fault is not his at all...but either mine or PSAs.

kennylow

DaBigHurt - I just wanted to make sure you saw the line. If you did, do your original comments still hold? Thanks.

DaBigHurt

I saw the line. I just think we should refrain from questioning PSA, that's all. They're a third party grader and doing a fabulous job. If they say the card is an 8, who are we to judge otherwise? They're the professionals. When we start questioning the grades assigned by PSA, I think we're entering dangerous territory because it undermines the system.

kennylow

wow, what a wierd response.
that is more shocking than the grade on the card itself.

pandrews

heh

BugOnTheRug

<< <i>There are three possibilities :
1. I am wrong, and 1970 Topps were regularly cut on top this way (look at the line on the top).
2. I was an idiot and purchased a bad PSA card.
3. PSA is responsible for slabbing this card an 8.
>>


1. You will find many 1970 Topps cards with a white or dark line on top or bottom.
2. I don't know you well enough to speculate if you're an idiot, but you didn't purchase a bad PSA card.
3. Yes, PSA is responsible for slabbing this card an 8. No way would GAI or SGC be responsible for it . (Just Look at the cert tag)

BOTR

kennylow

now that's a useful and good response. thanks!

RubberBiskit

wow, what a wierd response.

You have to realize that DaBigHurt gets paid $10 a week for
moping Joe Orlando's office and is trying very hard to move up.
heh

JrMacdaddy

<< <i>You have to realize that DaBigHurt gets paid $10 a week for moping Joe Orlando's office and is trying very hard to move up. >>



I attribute it to sarcasm.

rw2win

Don't forget the bronze kneepads.

WinPitcher

What larger picture? the seller in this case is a creep in my opinion. Yes her did say email for a larger scan, only to get himself off the hook. Anyone with ethics would have had a better scan and or wrote about the problem. Now I have no idea if the price reflects the problem and you thought maybe it was underpriced or what. I have no idea what that card goes for. I am though sick and tired of sellers hiding behind the BS that graded cards are non returnable.

Steve

kennylow

the seller's other scans of his other auctions are identical to this one. i don't think he was trying to pull a fast one. and he's selling other 1970 graded and non-graded cards too. that's the main reason i don't blame the seller in this case.

Hubcap

Kennylow:

Next time you bid on a card, have a better understanding of what you are bidding on. The Mays card goes for about $175-185 without the line. With the line, you got a fair deal.

You might also not want to bid on cards with a small scan.

You might also want to realize that if it's too good to be true, then don't bid.

PSA has no fault here other than to give a card that is 75-25 OC side to side an 8 grade. Personally, I would have graded the card a 7 based on that, not the line on the top, which as BOTR mentioned is common for this year.

Al Zouky

ChrisKK

kennylow,
the 1970 cards sometimes do have the white line on top. it is not as desirable but it is acceptable. here is a link to a PSA 10 with the white line.

you can always sell it and pick up another.

Win,
one purpose of grading is that you KNOW what quality you are buying. if you don't like the scan, don't bid on the card. the saying is 'buyer be ware' not 'seller bend over' YOU have the ability NOT to bid on what you are not comfortable buying. ask for a better scan.

Chris

Axtell

I think it's the responsibility of the buyer to always know what they are buying.

The seller offered you a larger scan, you failed to ask for it. The seller's other auctions look identical in scans to this one.

I think if you truly hate the white line this much, buy another and sell this one.

WinPitcher

think it's the responsibility of the buyer to always know what they are buying


I agree

kennylow

thanks all, some very good responses. very educational!

kennylow

ChrisKK - I don't see a line on that Bahnsen card.

my short search on ebay for current auctions on PSA 8 1970 Topps cards show no cards with a line on it. how common was it?

Buccaneer

<< <i>think it's the responsibility of the buyer to always know what they are buying


I agree >>



Like buying the card and not the holder?

DaBigHurt is right, we would be in dangerous territory for questioning a 75/25 centering as an 8.

WinPitcher

Like buying the card and not the holder?


yep

ChrisKK

kennylow:

from my set look at these cards: 183,185,186,236,296,302,375,401,418,424,441,498,574 and 562 (line on bottom). it happens.

chris

ydsotter

When I was at the FT Washington show... I came across 6 or 7
PSA 8's with that white line. I also had a mccovey psa 8 like that once.
So, I don't think it's unusul.
In any case, it's ugly.. and I wouldn't want it either. I'd be displeased...

I would already have it posted on ebay... I am a surface and centering junkie... The card has to look nice to me from a few yards away...

The seller didn't really do anything wrong... He covered himself etc...

Psa 8's can have a variety of small imperfections... a corner, a print mark, a diamond cut... depends what you can live with and what you can't. Maybe Da Big Hurt will trade you something nice for it :-)

If I listed it I'd say something like this: 4 sharp corners, smooth edges, centering is : ##/## and surface is beautiful except a factory print line near top of card. PSA graded 8... SMR is $### and I'd post an adequate scan.
I would expect to get $70-$80

kennylow

kennylow

The pic is in my Mays registry set

Thanks Chris. Your cards are all 9s, so they do look clean, even with the line. Take a look at the mays and how rough it is. There is ALOT of space between the line and the card, and also the top is very rough. When I first looked at it in person, my first thought is that Topps miscut the card.

As for those who have discussed the centering - it shows how the scan fooled you. A few of you mentioned you think it is 75/25 ... in fact, it is 60/40. The right part of the ebay seller's scan is "partially hidden" in the plastic edge of the holder, so it looks shorter on the right side than it is in person ... take a look at my scan, and you'd see a difference. The left side measures .3mm, the right side .2mm, that's 60/40 to me.

Buccaneer

In magnifying the card, it is in spec at 64.7/35.3. My bias is towards centering and eye-appeal and I would have a hard time buying a star card with this centering in a PSA 7, let alone an 8.

ChrisKK

kennylow,
your card is a border line 8 but still does fit the grade. a rough cut is not a miscut, although there is a larger than 'normal' looking gap. it looks worse on a star card as well.

let us know what you are doing with it (keep or sell).

Chris

kennylow

after reading buccanneer's comments, i drew a black line on the border of the card and remeasured it. I measured all the gray space only, none of the white line from left to right. I get 58.5%/41.5% with that measurement. i'm not trying to convince buc to like the centering, just pointing out its not nearly as bad as it may look to him...although i guess the appearance is bad to him.

in any case, i'm not concerned about the centering at all. it is well within my limits for an 8. what is funny is that there seems to be two very extreme camps here. one says "just let PSA me your mommy and daddy and tell you what you should enjoy...a PSA 8 is a PSA 8 regardless of the card". .. the other camp says "i don't like 60/40 centering at all, and 60/40 looks more like 75/25 to me...not all PSA 8 cards are all alike"....what a different world different posters live here. i guess i'm in a little of both camps

i have too many traveling plans in the next two months to sell the card...but i probably will sell it at some point, maybe may or june.

thanks all.

jrdolan

I have owned and handled many, many 1970 Topps with a white "cut" line, including PSA 9's. But always very close to or right on the edge, like the PSA 10 Bahnsen shown. 1968 is notorious for that as well. I'm surprised PSA let that slide, with the line so far down into the card.

A761506

Those white lines are common on a number of sets, not just 1970 Topps. They are not factored heavily into the grade, perhaps not at all after seeing that PSA 10. The 1962 Topps sticks out in my mind as a set that has that same "problem", although, I don't know if I would consider it a problem. That Mays card must have very strong corners which are PSA 8, and the white line is not factored into the centering measurements of the card at all. I'd say from looking at the small scan of it in the auction, the seller has done nothing wrong, nor has PSA overgraded the card. The white line should not detract significantly from the overall appeal of a 1970 Mays card grade a PSA 8.

WinPitcher

Same seller another auction


gawd

Y is this scan so much better?

I love when they say "would be a Psa 8 if it wasn't cut like crap" lol

Buccaneer

kennylow, I would hate to be put into an extremist camp but I would take your measurement since I was going off of an enlarged version of that scan. I personally think you got a good deal since you bought it at about 30% below SMR. It can have good resale value since there are those that buy the holder. What gets tough for me is the 1957 star cards that I buy in PSA 6. There have been times that I buy 75/25 or even 80/20 centering if I can get it for the price of a PSA 4 or 5. With PSA 8, I don't care about 4 sharp corners as much as I do centering. On PSA 7, it's a toss up even though I do strongly prefer softer corners over marginal centering. To me, it's about eye appeal, not loupe appeal.

Wabittwax

<< <i>Same seller another auction


gawd

Y is this scan so much better?

I love when they say "would be a Psa 8 if it wasn't cut like crap" lol >>




The reason this scan looks better is because the Clemente is raw which puts more of the card in the picture. Also with Ebay Picture Services (which the seller used), sideways cards fit better into their picture which also makes the card larger in the scan.

kennylow

buc, don't get me wrong, i don't like the entire look of this card at all, just for different reasons than you. i'm just kicking myself that i was stupid to not examine more carefully. but this forum has been great, the education here is phenomenal. thanks all.

pb19991

Kenny, I have seen quite a few of the 1970 cards with the line. In all aspects of collecting everyone has different tolerance levels for different flaws. bottom line is you have to collect what appeals to you. I agree Psa probably should have made it a 7 because of the line and the centering, and i disagree with the person who posted that we should'nt question Psa when we feel somethings misgraded. after all we pay to have them graded and i've personally re submitted and received different grades on the same card, i've also read quite a few articles in the message boards from others who do the same. that just does'nt seem right but it's just the way it is. I personally collected the 1960 Topps set and usually tried to avoid cards that i did'nt like the centering even if they were graded an 8 , but apparently that does'nt bother others as i've seen the #116 Jim Rivera card sell recently for well over $400.00 with terrible centering, i personally would rather have a nicely centered 7 for $20.00 . I'm sure you'll have no problem selling the card and getting you're money back should you decide to sell. take care and good luck you have a nice start to an awesome collection. Phil

downgoesfrazier

<< <i>I saw the line. I just think we should refrain from questioning PSA, that's all. They're a third party grader and doing a fabulous job. If they say the card is an 8, who are we to judge otherwise? They're the professionals. When we start questioning the grades assigned by PSA, I think we're entering dangerous territory because it undermines the system.

>>




Where does one start with a post like this??? Hurt, do you really FEEL this way??? Speak for yourself and please refrain from using words like "we" when expressing opinions toward PSA's grading acumen. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am also entitled to STRONGLY disagree with everything you wrote, the tone in which it was presented, and to feel sorry for your inability to assess the condition and desirability of the coardboard you collect. The flavor of your post is everything I feel is backwards about third-party authentication and how misused and over-exposed it has become in this hobby. Awful post.

Kenny,
The card does show the cutting template, but the stock does appear strong and the visibility of those lines are certainly accepted by high-grade collectors of 1970 topps baseball--albeit not preferred. Your copy at first glance looks like a solid NM example and that doesn't make you or PSA's grader in question an idiot. It appears you'll simply be re-listing the card when you obtain a copy that better suits your condition standards. Don't worry about it. The card is fine. I would, however, suggest you look in more detail at the CARD rather than the holder when surfing eBay.


dgf

downgoesfrazier

Woops,
I failed to read page 2. You all covered all of this already...my bad...

never mind...


dgf

stevek

Pasted from the auction:

Seller's return policy:
Return Policy Details: NO RETURNS ON GRADED CARDS !!


I simply won't bid with a seller's policy like this. Whether a PSA 8 or any grade, there are "high end" and "low end" cards of the grade. With a policy like this you are almost guaranteed to get a "low end" card such as this. I learned my lesson the hard way when one of the first PSA cards I bought off of ebay was a Gil Hodges 1961 topps PSA 9. There was only a front scan. The back of the card had a dime sized, very bad ink smear where the stats were - I was quite hissed about that because with a PSA 9 I fully expected a clearly printed back, but the seller had something like "NO RETURNS ON GRADED CARDS !!" so I was stuck with it. I didn't want it so I sold it on ebay, noting the smear with a back scan, for much less than I paid.

Axtell

Hmm if he does a ton of card sales (sounds like he does) he may do this for simplification.

He posted pictures.

PSA graded the cards, not him.

He offered more scans.

Not sure why people continue to bash this seller.

gemint

Not that this means much, but, I've owned several PSA 8 1970 Mays. To this day, the one that has risen to the top is a rock solid PSA 8 Mays with mint corners but the cutting line about 1/8" from the top of the card. I've owned other 1970 Mays cards that did not have the white line but they did not have equivalent visual appeal. If that Mays card is centered a hair less than 50-50 bottom to top, the white line will show. But I don't view it as a show stopper.

1979COLLECTOR

PSA Has a guarantee, send the card to them and if it grades lower then they will reimburse you the difference.

metsfan

I think the centering on this card is fine. The white line would bother me,but everyone is differnt.I have a raw 1970 Mays with the same line,so they are somewhat common. Basically,buy what you like.

Mrcardsniper

Mrcardsniper

"PSA Has a guarantee, send the card to them and if it grades lower then they will reimburse you the difference"

I was not aware of any such guarantee? from PSA on any of their card gradings. What difference? I've bought some cards off EBAY which looked great with no qualifiers. The picture showed no problems... But when I got the card in the mail they had a obnoxious wax stain with no "ST" qualifier. What is my recorse... Thanks Mrcardsniper

RipublicaninMass

<< <i> wow, what a wierd response.

You have to realize that DaBigHurt gets paid $10 a week for
moping Joe Orlando's office and is trying very hard to move up.
heh >>



HEH

bowdowntome

First off let me say I don't collect 1970's, or BB cards at all, for that matter. But I did at one time and I remember distinctly the white lines on them and not caring, at least not back then.

Now, looking at them they are are kind of distracting. But in my opinion they are not "cutting lines", they are simply lines that were created by something at the edge of the printing plate, maybe a small gap between the the actual plate and something that holds the plate? (I don't know much about printing). I have never seen an uncut sheet of these, but I'm willing to bet that the white line cards are from either the top or bottom rows of the sheets. If that is the case, then they wouldn't get trimmed or cut by the card company, they would simply be the edge of the sheet of cardstock. I'd also bet that they would have a rougher edge to them. Willie Mays was probably just unlucky enough to be situated on the top row of the sheet.

NickM

IMO the white line should be treated as a print line, and on a card like '70 Topps should either knock the card down one or more grades or cause a PD qualifier if it detracts significantly from visual appeal.

Nick

goudeygold

I agree with you Axtell. Follow the instructions, ask questions prior to bidding and be content. Some people think if they piss and moan about anything, they have a right to ignore the rules of the auction. I'm NOT referring to the originator of this post, but simply to all the people that think that not accepting returns on 3rd party professionally graded cards is some kind of sin. It is a major pain in the butt to refund, resend, etc..., etc...

follow the rules and don't bid if you don't like it. right?!

GG

As a note, It is 100% unclear to me how this isn't considered a print defect qualifier. A "gem mint 10" with a solid white line on a gray border?! I'm tired of responding to dabighurts relentless blowing down to PSA. I'm sure he never questions his wife either. nothing more to be said.