Bought from a big CW ad and made a stupid mistake so I'm passing on my lesson to other newbies

xbob · February 10, 2005 2:17AM

Stupid move #1: I used some gift money and got 3 coins from one of the big Coin World advertisers that only lists coins as "Select Brilliant Uncirculated" or "Gem Brilliant Uncirculated". I bought a common Morgan, Peace, and Walker Half for under $40 each. When they arrived, they looked pretty shiny so I suspect they were cleaned. I called them and asked if the coins were cleaned and told that they don't do that.

Stupid move #2: I hadn't used my Gold CC submissions yet, so I included these 3 figuring at least I'd have a MS example slabbed of each of these types, even if they didn't grade high. I admit I don't have the skills yet to determine grades very well in Uncirculated coins, but these were "Gems", right? At least 63's? I'm not investing, just trying to get a nice mint state collection together for starters.

I have had eBay raw purchases slabbed and actually done well, usually one grade below the sellers' grade opinion. However, these coins from a major dealer graded AU53 for the Peace and Walker, and bodybag for cleaning on the Morgan. I don't have them back yet, but my grades got posted.

So I contacted the seller asking why the big difference. The person I spoke to basically said grading is so subjective that if you want slabbed coins, don't try to make them, buy them slabbed. He said the graders at their company, including some former PCGS, determined the coins Gem Brilliant Uncirculated. Well, I am an under-experienced fool for not knowing better before submitting, but I also think a 53 is a far cry below Gem BU. I've done better buying raw on eBay (which is still a stupid mistake sometimes, but I've been quite lucky).

I was offered a full refund of my purchase price, but I am keeping these slabs as a lesson learned reminder. I have also noticed that the ads in CW now only say BU on the coins rather than "Select" or "Gem". Perhaps there have been complaints. I'm not saying who the dealer was (unless enough people bug me). I am just posting to warn other new folks that buying this way, from the big multi-page CW advertisers, for submitting is probably a mistake. They are probably just fine for album coins, just remember the grade may be much lower than you expect. The sellers advice is true. Until I know better, I am going to buy my MS coins already slabbed (or from the Mint).

Perhaps this post will prevent someone else from the same mistake.

BigGreek · February 10, 2005 2:26AM

XBOB,

thanks for the great post. I've never bought from a CW ad but do buy
coins off ebay and I have about a 20 % success rate of slabbing at
the grade or one below. 50% go back to the seller and the rest sit
in my collection until I sell them (usually at a loss).

With slabbed coins I've had much better luck. I've only had to return
1 slabbed coin which was sold using enhanced pictures. NGC gave
the coin a 64 but it was just barely a 64 (no way it would cross) and
the seller claimed it would go 65.

They way I like to buy raw coins is at our local shows were I get to
see the coin and determine the grade myself.

best of luck,
-Dimitri.

Bear · February 10, 2005 2:30AM

Xbob, we all done that been there. Welcome to the Forum.

Barry · February 10, 2005 2:42AM

Xbob. You should tell us who the dealer was - it will help prevent others from making the same mistake. Although most of the full-page Coin World advertisers fall into the same category as your dealer, there are honest dealers advertising in Coin World

K6AZ · February 10, 2005 2:50AM

<< Xbob. You should tell us who the dealer was - it will help prevent others from making the same mistake. Although most of the full-page Coin World advertisers fall into the same category as your dealer, there are honest dealers advertising in Coin World >>

Does it really make a difference Barry? Sims, Ken Pines Coast to Coast, Skyline, etc.? I think it would be better to point out the honest CW advertisers, it would be a lot less work than pointing out all the advertisers who sell cleaned AU junk as "select" and "gem" BU.

UncleWiggly · February 10, 2005 2:54AM

I'll name names. I bought a Trade Dollar from a ad from Mount Vernon for $344. Premium BU. Nice and shiney! Cleaned. I bought a 3c silver from Coast to Coast. BU. Nice and shiney. Cleaned. $129! I called Coast to Coast. I flat out asked them if they cleaned their coins. They said NO. I believe them and still do. Just because they don't clean coins doesn't stop them from SELLING them. I didn't almost forget, just didn't want to remember. I bought a gorgeous 2 cent piece for $)*&@ from Coast to Coast. Cleaned!
As Bear said........

Jerry

Barry · February 10, 2005 2:56AM

Eric,
To me, no, but there are plenty of newbies/lurkers who I'm sure would appreciate the info. Did your web site list the good grading services, or go after some of the bad ones?

Shamika · February 10, 2005 3:01AM

Sorry about your bad experience. I always subscribe to the saying "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is". These sellers aren't in the business of giving away "gem BU" coins for less than $40. They know their customers well and are out to take them for every cent they can get.

<< He said the graders at their company, including some former PCGS, determined the coins Gem Brilliant Uncirculated. >>

I would be very suspicious of this statement. I wonder if they would supply the names of these fomer PCGS graders? You could then ask David Hall on the Q/A Forum if he knows these guys.

<< Well, I am an under-experienced fool for not knowing better before submitting, but I also think a 53 is a far cry below Gem BU. >>

You better believe it!

xbob · February 10, 2005 3:02AM

<< 

<< Xbob. You should tell us who the dealer was - it will help prevent others from making the same mistake. Although most of the full-page Coin World advertisers fall into the same category as your dealer, there are honest dealers advertising in Coin World >>

Does it really make a difference Barry? Sims, Ken Pines Coast to Coast, Skyline, etc.? I think it would be better to point out the honest CW advertisers, it would be a lot less work than pointing out all the advertisers who sell cleaned AU junk as "select" and "gem" BU. >>

It is one of those K6AZ mentioned. Enough said. However, I really wanted the focus of the thread just be a lesson learned for me that might help others rather than what seller to avoid. I'm sure most of the sellers that have graded slabbed coins are at least telling the truth. A quick search of these forums usually reveals the good ones (or we can just ask as a new post). It's the sellers that just list "BU" and the like that I will avoid from now on.

The coins did grade about equal to the price paid (per the PCGS price list) just not what i expected based on the ad. Which reminds me of a saying I read in a coin book, "There is no Santa Claus in Numismatics". Too good to be true, buyer beware, etc... etc...

edit: OK, WTF.... it was Coast to Coast but I would be suspicious of any of their ilk. Please learn from my mistake. That's all.

K6AZ · February 10, 2005 3:03AM

Apples and oranges Barry. At the time five years ago, there was only one really bad grading company, so it was easier to point out the one bad company vs. the five that were good. In this case, you have a few good sellers who advertise in CW vs. dozens who shouldn't be trusted to buy a $10 coin from.

I'll give the newbies one good source to buy raw Morgans from, and that is Dale Williams and Collector USA. Every raw Morgan I have bought from them has been right on, or actually higher than their stated grade.

tmot99 · February 10, 2005 3:18AM

When I started collecting, I bought from Sims. Never again. Because of my experience from them, I haven't bought from anyone that advertises in CW any more.

RonMan · February 10, 2005 3:20AM

My thread from October

paigowjohnny · February 10, 2005 3:40AM

I'm a Coast to Coast and Skyline veteran...with similar results.

I'll buy sealed/slabbed stuff from them, but nothing raw...not any more.

xbob · February 10, 2005 4:38AM

One more amusing footnote. The guy at Coast said if I like slabbed coins, only buy and collect PCGS and NGC but never ANACS. I said, "Why not ANACS?". He said because their grading sucks.

Is that not the pot calling the kettle?

Actually, I like ANACS for some of my own submitting. Until I can spot problems well, at least I can still get a net grade coin rather than a bodybag - and learn something from the details.

Bear · February 10, 2005 4:43AM

Most of the long time dealers and dealer/collectors on the Forum, are

fair, honest and good folks to deal with. Just read the comments here

and in a short period of time, you will know who is safe to deal with and

who isnt.

Heywood · February 10, 2005 4:50AM

Another trick/ word play you often see is BORDERLINE uncirculated and you read BU.

Prethen · February 10, 2005 5:00AM

Most of those large-ad CW dealers are total scheisters. I'm basing this on personal as well as collective experience. I won't ever trust them again. Period. I bought BU $20 gold Liberties from Paut Simms. ICG graded them as AU55 and AU58. I realize that's not too far off from BU valuations, but I was stupid enough to think they were BU+ to pay a slabbing fee and pay a BU price.

I called those morons at Paut Simms and I got the exact same speil...."Coin grading is inexact, yada yada yada..." Bull-loney! If you have a grader on staff, he better darn well know that there's a big difference between a coin with wear and one without and he better be a better grader than the trusting sheep they call customers.

Okay...I'm done venting.

Prethen · February 10, 2005 5:07AM

Wanna know another fairly obvious red flag for a dealer? Try John Paul Sarosi's ads in Coin World. It's a joke. Every time I've looked almost every coin is given a choice grade. Go ahead and amuse yourself sometime and see how many coins do NOT have a choice grade assigned to them. Most, if not all, of their coins are VG10, F15, VF35, XF45, and AU55+.

And, yes, there's been a previous thread about how these guys are notorious overgraders (not to mention pawning off cleaned stuff). No, duh!

[I guess I wasn't quite done venting after all.]

wayneherndon · February 10, 2005 6:15AM

I think the number of bad CW advertisers is still quite a bit smaller than the good. Take a look at the full page ads in the next issue. You'll see far more from great companies such as Collector USA, John Maben, Heritage, ANR, Superior, Spectrum, David Hall, First American, John Hamrick, DVRC, NHRC, NACT, Teletrade, Pinnacle, Legend, Bowers & Merena, Goldberg, CameoCC, David Lawrence, L&C, Dillon Gage, Hanks and Assoc., Jack Beymer, Kagin's and the like (and there's a lot more that didn't immediately jump to mind) than you will of the other type. Those are regular advertisers. In addition, you have a number of smaller irregular full page advertisers such as Angel Dee's, All American Coin Co (Bob Bruce is a member here), Washington Rare Coin Center, JH CLine, and WHRC (we run an ad monthly including the current issue). This is not to minimize Eric's list as that is still too many and virtually every subscriber can relate a story such as xbob's.

WH

Prethen · February 10, 2005 6:21AM

Your comment is probably absolutely correct. I am seeing some higher quality advertisers recently, now that you mention it and not just the same 1-2 whole page baddies that this thread is alluding to.

<< I think the number of bad CW advertisers is still quite a bit smaller than the good. Take a look at the full page ads in the next issue. You'll see far more from great companies such as Collector USA, John Maben, Heritage, ANR, Superior, Spectrum, David Hall, First American, John Hamrick, DVRC, NHRC, NACT, Teletrade, Pinnacle, Legend, Bowers & Merena, Goldberg, CameoCC, David Lawrence, L&C, Dillon Gage, Hanks and Assoc., Jack Beymer, Kagin's and the like (and there's a lot more that didn't immediately jump to mind) than you will of the other type. Those are regular advertisers. In addition, you have a number of smaller irregular full page advertisers such as Angel Dee's, All American Coin Co (Bob Bruce is a member here), Washington Rare Coin Center, JH CLine, and WHRC (we run an ad monthly including the current issue). This is not to minimize Eric's list as that is still too many and virtually every subscriber can relate a story such as xbob's.

WH >>

nankraut · February 10, 2005 7:18AM

I agree with Wayne Herndon's comment:

I think the number of bad CW advertisers is still quite a bit smaller than the good. Take a look at the full page ads in the next issue. You'll see far more from great companies such as Collector USA, John Maben, Heritage, ANR, Superior, Spectrum, David Hall, First American, John Hamrick, DVRC, NHRC, NACT, Teletrade, Pinnacle, Legend, Bowers & Merena, Goldberg, CameoCC, David Lawrence, L&C, Dillon Gage, Hanks and Assoc., Jack Beymer, Kagin's and the like (and there's a lot more that didn't immediately jump to mind) than you will of the other type. Those are regular advertisers. In addition, you have a number of smaller irregular full page advertisers such as Angel Dee's, All American Coin Co (Bob Bruce is a member here), Washington Rare Coin Center, JH CLine, and WHRC (we run an ad monthly including the current issue). This is not to minimize Eric's list as that is still too many and virtually every subscriber can relate a story such as xbob's.

dpoole · February 10, 2005 7:36AM

I agree with Bear, Xbob. We've all been then when we started off.

I have to say your comment that they would give you a full refund was unexpected, and a plus. My parallel experience with Collectorsinternet.com of California back in 2001 got the response that I could have substituted poor quality coins for the gems they sent me, and how would I like to speak to their lawyer!

barberlover · February 10, 2005 7:52AM

The last time I acctually took a chance buying from a coin world add, I got real lucky on because I paid 194 dollars for a pcgs 65 red 02 Indian cent. That was 3 years ago. But when I was young I got burned more times then I care to remember from some of the bad guys out their.

Welcome to the coin collecting school of hard knocks. Come on in !!!

Like Bear said, been their done that.

I could tell you my "ones that got away" stories if it will make you feel better, some that cost me thousands for not buying or selling at the wrong time.

Les

roadrunner · February 10, 2005 8:06AM

1. As a rule, ex-PCGS graders are not needed at dealerships that
sell cleaned coins. Would they be fearful that an honestly graded
coin made it out the front door?

2. Grading is subjective and a science. Identifying scrubbed and
overpriced coins is not subjective. They just plain are or aren't.

3. And don't forget that the range of quality for each grade allows
inferior certified coins to be sold for handsome prices by many
"upstanding" dealers.

4. It's a "dog eat collector" world out there.

roadrunner

Bought from a big CW ad and made a stupid mistake so I'm passing on my lesson to other newbies

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