Modern cards are a VERY BAD investment. Even highly graded cards in 30 years will not be a great investment because their are so many of them. It's all supply and demand. Vintage is a safer INVESTMENT. As for collecting pleasure and enjoyment, I like modern cards much more. They are creative and I still remember when I first laid eyes on 1989 Upperdeck Baseball.......man oh man, that was a ground breaking, market changing set right there. There was nothing else on the market like it when it hit. Quality card stock and quality photos. Little Holograms and pictures on both sides. And of course, the Kid as card #1. Never thought it would get better than that....then 1993 Topps Finest hit!!!!!
Modern cards are nice and have a lot to offer, but if I were in it as an INVESTMENT, I would stick to vintage graded cards.
Guys Sometimes I wish there were a separate forum for the collectors and investors so we don't have to go down this road every few months. But seriously, one will enjoy collecting, in general, way more if the joy of collecting were the dividend rather than the money. There are far safer places to put your money to work. I don't mean for this to sound like a lecture or anything but for me, if this stuff were to become worthless with respect to a price guide, I will still have the cards and memorabilia and some great memories. The best times I have here is when people share their collections, stories and joys about what they are doing. The Heritage season is a hoot! People will really share their time.
So, either way, hobby or investment, if there is fun and enthusiasm you will have your true dividend IMO.
<< <i>I will still have the cards and memorabilia and some great memories. >>
Absolutely - this discussion seems to go round and round every so often, but it boils down to that. Invest in cards? No way - invest in investments, and collect cards. Anything you might reap down the road is a bonus.
Do you guys really think that people just drop thousands of dollars for the joy of collecting and to hell with the money? really?
Been trying to give modern another look, and went to a card shop today when I was out doing errands. Bought some UD R-rookie pack or something. 5 cards 3 bucks, got nothing, but they look cool. I looked at some of the suggested packs such as the vintage cuts (12 bucks a pack?!) and one other I forgot the name of and it ws 7.50/pack. And "kids" really buy these things? Man, i must be getting older faster than I think.
<< <i>Do you guys really think that people just drop thousands of dollars for the joy of collecting and to hell with the money? really? >>
GG I won't dispute what I would infer from the statement. That's probably the difference between a collector and someone in the 90's who watched this stuff go up and figured they would jump in and fund their retirement villa on the Riviera.
If you go back to the 60's and early 70's, collecting was on an entirely different plane - I collected because I wanted a hobby and I'm a pack rat - the perfect marriage! There are loads of collectors who think of the item first and if there is a potential upside, so be it. I never think of selling - to be honest I can't even part with a McDonald wrapper! That's the heart and sole of a collector. If one looks at their collection and sees the day they can sell it - fine - that's more of a collector/investor/accumulator type - no crime, no shame - just different.
This is not a contest - not a war - not a battle - IMO, just a discussion on how we view the state of our hobby. Everything that is said here is real for that person and the opinion is valid. So...are you a collector or an investor?
Do you guys really think that people just drop thousands of dollars for the joy of collecting and to hell with the money? really?
That sounds like me, I have never purchased a coin, card or any collectable for it's investment potential. I collected it because I am a collector.
When I had a store and was in the business I did buy and tried to create profit but never have I collected for investment purposes. The market is too thinly liquid to sustain for investment purposes. For me at least.
Enjoy your cards, did you look at your (fill in) set today?
I would say i'm both. If I were purely an investor, I wouldn't be wasting money on cardboard. If I were purely a collector, I would probably have a wide range of stuff that would take up too much space and be hard to sell should I need to. I have money to play with aside from my "true" investments so I'm putting it into my love of baseball. Its more fun to me to have some great cards worth XXXX then to simply have an xtra XXXX in cash in the bank. However should I need the money for whatever, I can convert it back to cash without worry. So when it comes to my cards, I purposefully chose to collect cards that I really like, but any card I buy has to atleast have the ability to maintain its value while having an obviously reasonable ability to move up in value. Thus I pick the tried and true, rock steady pre-war cards. Plus i'm honestly confounded by the ability of these pieces of cardboard to survive over so much time in the condition some of them do. As for my collecting for example, I would never start buying 1984 Donruss cards because I think they are one of the most beautiful sets made. Ther is practically zero financial incentive. There is a balance to the like/financial incentive equation. With me however, the financial side is double or triple weighted. Just my opinion, but I seriously cannot imagine anyone buying a card for thousands of dollars if they genuinely didn't think it was a fair price. Fair price equating to market correct, which pertains ultimately to the fact that your not going to get hosed should you need to sell it for whatever reason. The exceptioin being if you just have tons of money to throw around, or simply spend beyond your means and don't care. Again maybe i'm wrong and this is very possible, but I'll ask you this... Do you think my ideals are a minority in cards today? If modern is indeed lottery driven, is my thinking the dominant idea?
great thoughts I must add as I look forward to your reply,
Okay, Here's my take on things. I started collecting in 1987, collected heavy until 1997. Went to college. Got back into collecting two years ago. I really liked topps gallery cards, but prices were pretty steep unpon realese and shortly there after.
That when I had my revalation, Wait until things cool down on new products then get them at fractions of the price.
I last week completed my 2003 topps gallery set. I decided to get all of the cards. I have the complete 200 cards base set, the ten variations in the base set, the 200 card artist proof set. the 30 card game used bat set, the 25 card heritage set, the 10 card game used heritage set, the 4 card auto/game used hertitage set, and the 24 card currency set.
I even attempted to complete a press plate set, got to 50 and said that was enough. Some are on ebay right now.
While I was waiting for the bottom to fall out on the newer cards I managed to together a near complete 1952 Topps Mater set cards 1-310.
So, i guess what I'm saying is. I enjoy some of the new stuff, but don't care for the "heat of the moment pricing". So i'll keep picking away at vintage sets.
I have no idea if what I just said just said makes sense to anyone. But it makes sense to me.
Sure it makes sense. The only question is while your waiting for the "market to bottom out" and you get them, are you getting them for fun, or do you think your getting a bargain and the price will then make its way back up at some point in time?
Thats cool on the 52 set, I also went after this beast and was only 40 cards from a 1-407 complete master set with errors. It was lower grade maybe a 2.8 average raw, with most high numbers poor/fair. I sold it (totaled about $6500 with $5500 invested) near 20% gain in only 1 1/2 years and had a blast building it. Plus I kept my Sain error card and a couple favorite high numbers for a momento. Moving into the 30s and the set building in the 4-5 range is much sloooower, but the thrill of the hunt is awesome.
good thoughts on your collecting ideas by keeping a mix of vintage and modern without getting hosed on volatility.
<< <i>If modern is indeed lottery driven, is my thinking the dominant idea? >>
GG I will have to apologize - could you sum up your thinking on modern?
On the 1984 set - if I have it correct, you think it is a beautiful set but a dud investment. The set was at one time hot and expensive and driven by the Matty RC - which by some accounts, was the driving force for the modern RC craze...my take: if one likes something a lot and passes on it due to the "investment" potential of the item - then the fun is sucked out of the hobby IMO. Most of the purist hobby collectors tell you: collect what you like. That is a great creed to live by - e.g. I like Topps cartoon art - sometimes I get a piece for 10 bucks on ebay's topps vault - it is going to cost me 75 bucks to have it professionally framed and archive preserved with the original card back - I'm not concerned since I really like the stuff.
Let me know on the summation of your take on modern, lottery, collecting etc.
Great discussion guys - BTW, I like you guys and like family, I don't try to "convert" anybody to my way of thinking - tried that with my sister a zillion years ago and learned my lesson!
The only question is while your waiting for the "market to bottom out" and you get them, are you getting them for fun, or do you think your getting a bargain and the price will then make its way back up at some point in time?
GG- I guess my reasoning was this. First I really like the design of the Topps Gallery cards, so the base set was for fun. The inserts were fun as well. Those would have the potentail of going up in value over time. Especially the four auto/game used cards. There are Brett, Gwynn, Boggs, and Puckett, all numbered to 25. I put this set together for the fun of it mostly, and there is always a potentail for prices to go up.
My 52 set sounds like the one you put together, lower grade raw stuff. I'm still looking for the page error, Campos error, 69RB, and 80RB. I'm thinking about trying to get the third series (131-190) grey backs as well. Right now I only have two of those. Eventually I'll work on the sixth series and get that mantle.
I think modern is good for fun and in the short run, definately has the "lottery" like potential. Somebody has to get the thousand dollar card, it may as well be you right? You can't win if you don't play so to speak. I guess my misunderstandig seems to come from the new cards that are thousands of dollars. I'm too logical I guess, but these cards don't seem to be very good investments. For fun, sure do whatever you like, but for investing? Not so good. And thats fine!!!!! Not trying to convert people and make my vintage that much harder to get! Like the general consensus, modern seems to spike very fast, then slowly decline over time. The Tiger Woods SI is the ultimate example, but also the Jordan RC, Kobe RC, etc...
As for the twin man and his 52 set, I had the page and sain errors, 3 second series cards with the gray backs (there is no premium, but they are quite scarce) I've only seen ONE Campos error, and have been emailing people for rear scans of the campos that come up on ebay for 2 years without luck. I've talked to nearly every major dealer and none have one nor do they know of anyone who does. As for the one that was on ebay? It was a year ago and the seller collected only error cards of all eras. It was rough, and had paper loss on the front AND a piece of tape on the front as well. It still sold for almost $300. I will still buy that card in ANY condition should I find another one. It is probably one of the most scarce cards post-war. The poncho herrera (the "herrer" version) card in 58 is considered by many to be possibly the rarest post war error card but I've seen 3 of those and 2 of them were in supurb condition.
Good luck on your 52 set, it is a blast to build. Fair warning though... nearly 100 high numbers and tough to get any high # in ANY condition for less than $40. Crease free is rock steady at $80+ for dead commons. I did get all the big ones except campanella, mantle, and mathews. Let me know if you have any questions on the set!
Comments
84 Fleer Update Clemens
86-87 Fleer Basketball (The entire set, but the Jordan RC of course - should be in the top 2 or 3)
1998 SPA Peyton Manning
1986 Topps Jerry Rice RC
Even highly graded cards in 30 years will not be a great investment because their are so many of them.
It's all supply and demand.
Vintage is a safer INVESTMENT.
As for collecting pleasure and enjoyment, I like modern cards much more.
They are creative and I still remember when I first laid eyes on 1989 Upperdeck Baseball.......man oh man, that was a ground breaking, market changing set right there. There was nothing else on the market like it when it hit. Quality card stock and quality photos. Little Holograms and pictures on both sides. And of course, the Kid as card #1. Never thought it would get better than that....then 1993 Topps Finest hit!!!!!
Modern cards are nice and have a lot to offer, but if I were in it as an INVESTMENT, I would stick to vintage graded cards.
<< <i>but I'm buying, not gambling. >>
Nick
Well put!
Guys
Sometimes I wish there were a separate forum for the collectors and investors so we don't have to go down this road every few months. But seriously, one will enjoy collecting, in general, way more if the joy of collecting were the dividend rather than the money. There are far safer places to put your money to work. I don't mean for this to sound like a lecture or anything but for me, if this stuff were to become worthless with respect to a price guide, I will still have the cards and memorabilia and some great memories. The best times I have here is when people share their collections, stories and joys about what they are doing. The Heritage season is a hoot! People will really share their time.
So, either way, hobby or investment, if there is fun and enthusiasm you will have your true dividend IMO.
your friend
Mike
<< <i>I will still have the cards and memorabilia and some great memories. >>
Absolutely - this discussion seems to go round and round every so often, but it boils down to that. Invest in cards? No way - invest in investments, and collect cards. Anything you might reap down the road is a bonus.
Been trying to give modern another look, and went to a card shop today when I was out doing errands. Bought some UD R-rookie pack or something. 5 cards 3 bucks, got nothing, but they look cool. I looked at some of the suggested packs such as the vintage cuts (12 bucks a pack?!) and one other I forgot the name of and it ws 7.50/pack. And "kids" really buy these things? Man, i must be getting older faster than I think.
GG
<< <i>Do you guys really think that people just drop thousands of dollars for the joy of collecting and to hell with the money? really? >>
GG
I won't dispute what I would infer from the statement. That's probably the difference between a collector and someone in the 90's who watched this stuff go up and figured they would jump in and fund their retirement villa on the Riviera.
If you go back to the 60's and early 70's, collecting was on an entirely different plane - I collected because I wanted a hobby and I'm a pack rat - the perfect marriage! There are loads of collectors who think of the item first and if there is a potential upside, so be it. I never think of selling - to be honest I can't even part with a McDonald wrapper! That's the heart and sole of a collector. If one looks at their collection and sees the day they can sell it - fine - that's more of a collector/investor/accumulator type - no crime, no shame - just different.
This is not a contest - not a war - not a battle - IMO, just a discussion on how we view the state of our hobby. Everything that is said here is real for that person and the opinion is valid. So...are you a collector or an investor?
your friend
Mike
That sounds like me, I have never purchased a coin, card or any collectable for it's investment potential. I collected it because I am a collector.
When I had a store and was in the business I did buy and tried to create profit but never have I collected for investment purposes. The market is too thinly liquid to sustain for investment purposes. For me at least.
Enjoy your cards, did you look at your (fill in) set today?
It's 10 pm do you know where your cards are?
Steve
I would say i'm both. If I were purely an investor, I wouldn't be wasting money on cardboard. If I were purely a collector, I would probably have a wide range of stuff that would take up too much space and be hard to sell should I need to. I have money to play with aside from my "true" investments so I'm putting it into my love of baseball. Its more fun to me to have some great cards worth XXXX then to simply have an xtra XXXX in cash in the bank. However should I need the money for whatever, I can convert it back to cash without worry. So when it comes to my cards, I purposefully chose to collect cards that I really like, but any card I buy has to atleast have the ability to maintain its value while having an obviously reasonable ability to move up in value. Thus I pick the tried and true, rock steady pre-war cards. Plus i'm honestly confounded by the ability of these pieces of cardboard to survive over so much time in the condition some of them do. As for my collecting for example, I would never start buying 1984 Donruss cards because I think they are one of the most beautiful sets made. Ther is practically zero financial incentive. There is a balance to the like/financial incentive equation. With me however, the financial side is double or triple weighted. Just my opinion, but I seriously cannot imagine anyone buying a card for thousands of dollars if they genuinely didn't think it was a fair price. Fair price equating to market correct, which pertains ultimately to the fact that your not going to get hosed should you need to sell it for whatever reason. The exceptioin being if you just have tons of money to throw around, or simply spend beyond your means and don't care. Again maybe i'm wrong and this is very possible, but I'll ask you this... Do you think my ideals are a minority in cards today? If modern is indeed lottery driven, is my thinking the dominant idea?
great thoughts I must add as I look forward to your reply,
GG
Here's my take on things. I started collecting in 1987, collected heavy until 1997. Went to college. Got back into collecting two years ago. I really liked topps gallery cards, but prices were pretty steep unpon realese and shortly there after.
That when I had my revalation, Wait until things cool down on new products then get them at fractions of the price.
I last week completed my 2003 topps gallery set. I decided to get all of the cards. I have the complete 200 cards base set, the ten variations in the base set, the 200 card artist proof set. the 30 card game used bat set, the 25 card heritage set, the 10 card game used heritage set, the 4 card auto/game used hertitage set, and the 24 card currency set.
I even attempted to complete a press plate set, got to 50 and said that was enough. Some are on ebay right now.
While I was waiting for the bottom to fall out on the newer cards I managed to together a near complete 1952 Topps Mater set cards 1-310.
So, i guess what I'm saying is. I enjoy some of the new stuff, but don't care for the "heat of the moment pricing". So i'll keep picking away at vintage sets.
I have no idea if what I just said just said makes sense to anyone. But it makes sense to me.
Thats cool on the 52 set, I also went after this beast and was only 40 cards from a 1-407 complete master set with errors. It was lower grade maybe a 2.8 average raw, with most high numbers poor/fair. I sold it (totaled about $6500 with $5500 invested) near 20% gain in only 1 1/2 years and had a blast building it. Plus I kept my Sain error card and a couple favorite high numbers for a momento. Moving into the 30s and the set building in the 4-5 range is much sloooower, but the thrill of the hunt is awesome.
good thoughts on your collecting ideas by keeping a mix of vintage and modern without getting hosed on volatility.
GG
<< <i>If modern is indeed lottery driven, is my thinking the dominant idea? >>
GG
I will have to apologize - could you sum up your thinking on modern?
On the 1984 set - if I have it correct, you think it is a beautiful set but a dud investment. The set was at one time hot and expensive and driven by the Matty RC - which by some accounts, was the driving force for the modern RC craze...my take: if one likes something a lot and passes on it due to the "investment" potential of the item - then the fun is sucked out of the hobby IMO. Most of the purist hobby collectors tell you: collect what you like. That is a great creed to live by - e.g. I like Topps cartoon art - sometimes I get a piece for 10 bucks on ebay's topps vault - it is going to cost me 75 bucks to have it professionally framed and archive preserved with the original card back - I'm not concerned since I really like the stuff.
Let me know on the summation of your take on modern, lottery, collecting etc.
Great discussion guys - BTW, I like you guys and like family, I don't try to "convert" anybody to my way of thinking - tried that with my sister a zillion years ago and learned my lesson!
your friend
Mike
GG-
I guess my reasoning was this. First I really like the design of the Topps Gallery cards, so the base set was for fun. The inserts were fun as well. Those would have the potentail of going up in value over time. Especially the four auto/game used cards. There are Brett, Gwynn, Boggs, and Puckett, all numbered to 25. I put this set together for the fun of it mostly, and there is always a potentail for prices to go up.
My 52 set sounds like the one you put together, lower grade raw stuff. I'm still looking for the page error, Campos error, 69RB, and 80RB. I'm thinking about trying to get the third series (131-190) grey backs as well. Right now I only have two of those. Eventually I'll work on the sixth series and get that mantle.
After reading your posts, I would put you in the "collector" category rather than investor?
your friend
Mike
As for the twin man and his 52 set, I had the page and sain errors, 3 second series cards with the gray backs (there is no premium, but they are quite scarce) I've only seen ONE Campos error, and have been emailing people for rear scans of the campos that come up on ebay for 2 years without luck. I've talked to nearly every major dealer and none have one nor do they know of anyone who does. As for the one that was on ebay? It was a year ago and the seller collected only error cards of all eras. It was rough, and had paper loss on the front AND a piece of tape on the front as well. It still sold for almost $300. I will still buy that card in ANY condition should I find another one. It is probably one of the most scarce cards post-war. The poncho herrera (the "herrer" version) card in 58 is considered by many to be possibly the rarest post war error card but I've seen 3 of those and 2 of them were in supurb condition.
Good luck on your 52 set, it is a blast to build. Fair warning though... nearly 100 high numbers and tough to get any high # in ANY condition for less than $40. Crease free is rock steady at $80+ for dead commons. I did get all the big ones except campanella, mantle, and mathews. Let me know if you have any questions on the set!
GG