re: to locked thread form PSA
ranger63
Posts: 328 ✭
I dont know about you guys but I think this is great. I am glad that this is being addressed by PSA. Personally I was concerned about what could potentionally become of the value of my PSA slabbed cards. After reading this I can say that I am a lot more comfortable. It seems to me that PSA is admitting there was a problem and they are trying to make good on it. Maybe now we can get back to talking about cards!
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2000 Gallery PPI Registry Set
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
We have had four major attempts at compromising our holders in the past 18 years.
1. 1988-89. A coin dealer named Gary Fernandez sold about $1.8 million worth of coins in counterfeit PCGS holders. The coins were all about one grade off. We turned him in to the FBI and he eventually was found guilty of a bunch of stuff and served 46 months in prison.
2. 1994ish. A small coin switching scam ala WIWAG. The guys were confronted and stopped. We couldn'd get the authorities interested as the total amount involved was under (slightly) $100,000.
3. 1999ish, if my memory serves me. A counterfeit card holder scam out of Seattle. In fact, we believe it may have been a Chinese mafia deal. They started out selling counterfeit raw Mark McGwire cards on eBay but soon discovered they could do a lot better with cards in PSA holders. They knocked off the PSA holder but it was somewhat primitive. This time we were able to get the FBI involved and we also sued them. We think they just went back to China and stopped the card deal.
4. The WIWAG deal. This was a card switching deal. We seemed to catch them pretty quick, even though they were pretty clever in their scam. Perps plead to various felonies.
There have been numerous, usually quite crude attempts at holder alteration. And there's the internet Photo Shop fraud deals where bad guys phoney up scans of holders, but there's not a lot any of us can do about that, except use common sense when buying online.
The bottom line is that we always react swiftly to any attempt to compromise our product. And we always try to get the authorities (hopefully the FBI) involved. And I believe we've been pretty successful at stopping scams and making the bad guys pay.
David
One of the allegations being made was that WIWAG somehow stole PSA holders from an unsecured area, and was using those holders as part of their illegal operations. To the best of your knowledge, did that ever happen? I wouldn't have thought so, since a theft charge was never part of the list of offenses against WIWAG, but if you could let us know it might help to alleviate some of the concerns out there.
Thank you.
Further - I believe David Hall addressing the forum is a good thing. Thanks David.
Hall of Famers from all 4 sports
Just some thoughts.
your friend
Mike
Just wondering.
JTB
<< <i>To gregm13 re making sure it doesn't happen again...
3. 1999ish, if my memory serves me. A counterfeit card holder scam out of Seattle. These were some Chinese guys and in fact we believe it may have been a Chinese mafia deal. They started out selling counterfeit raw Mark McGwire cards on eBay but soon discovered they could do a lot better with cards in PSA holders. They knocked off the PSA holder but it was somewhat primitive. This time we were able to get the FBI involved and we also sued them. We think they just went back to China and stopped the card deal (probably easier to counterfeit DVDs or software. When we served them in the lawsuit, the address turned out to be a Chinese laundry (no kidding!)
David >>
We found no evidence of holders being stolen from PSA. When we picked up WIWAG's sealing machine we did also pick up a case of holders, but they were holders that had already been used and cards had been cracked out, presumably by WIWAG.
<< <i>I'm not a basher, but does anyone else find this description offensive? Why even mention that they were Chinese? You didn't mention the ethnicity of any of the other offenders. When he got out of jail, do you think Gary Fernandez went back to Mexico to [insert racial stereotype here]?
Just wondering.
JTB
>>
good lord.
He mentioned the chinese mafia was involved...and the information he was given was that they likely fled to China. So part of the story revolves around them being chinese.
He mentioned the chinese mafia was involved...and the information he was given was that they likely fled to China. So part of the story revolves around them being chinese. >>
Wrong. He said "we believe" and "we think". Your characterization is: Chinese mafia were involved and he was given information. Neither of those were in his post.
<< <i>We found no evidence of holders being stolen from PSA. When we picked up WIWAG's sealing machine we did also pick up a case of holders, but they were holders that had already been used and cards had been cracked out, presumably by WIWAG. >>
<< <i>JTB...Meant no offense to any ethic group. Only mention the Chinese/China part to show that we tried to nail the perps but they flew the coup...literally half way around the world...David >>
i think most of us understood.. coincidentally, the person who was offended has his profile hidden..
<< <i>We found no evidence of holders being stolen from PSA. When we picked up WIWAG's sealing machine we did also pick up a case of holders, but they were holders that had already been used and cards had been cracked out, presumably by WIWAG. >>
If they were "resealing" and didn't have the alleged stolen holders - I'm back to the implied expectation of product assurance - I think the holders have to made in a such a way that they can't be resealed.
your friend
Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>JTB...Meant no offense to any ethic group. Only mention the Chinese/China part to show that we tried to nail the perps but they flew the coup...literally half way around the world...David >>
i think most of us understood.. coincidentally, the person who was offended has his profile hidden.. >>
Damn Perry
I better get that profile up straight away!
<< <i>Damn Perry
I better get that profile up straight away!
ive never trusted you, mike..
As an alternative - instead of Chinese mafia - we'll call them the "Oriental crime organization".....
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
i think most of us understood.. coincidentally, the person who was offended has his profile hidden.. >>
But, Mr. Einstein, they log IP addresses. If he really wants to know, he can find out exactly who I am.
<< <i>But, Mr. Einstein, they log IP addresses. If he really wants to know, he can find out exactly who I am. >>
my friends call me Albert.. but I prefer you call me Mr. Einstein..
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>JTB - I didn't realize the picture on your profile was of you..... >>
<< <i>There was nothing offensive about David's post. I thought these boards were my one sanctuary from political correctness - but that belief has been shattered.
As an alternative - instead of Chinese mafia - we'll call them the "Oriental crime organization".....
Greg M. >>
Greg M- I believe the PC police have stated that "Oriental" is racist and should be replaced with "Asian" as in "Asian crime organization"
Much better.
2000 Gallery PPI Registry Set
<< <i>"Asian crime organization"
Much better.
i think it should be addressed by the actual "Sung Lian" Triad name..
<< <i>Greg M- I believe the PC police have stated that "Oriental" is racist and should be replaced with "Asian" as in "Asian crime organization"
Much better.
It's not racist so much as wrong. As an Asian friend once explained to me, "oriental" is for objects, "Asian" is for people.
Honestly, I'm the last person in the world to be offended, but I did find it odd that David prominently mentioned the ethnicity of only one of the groups.
Tabe
Thanks for addressing the issue. I know I'm a newbie, but I'm impressed by the professionalism.
<< <i>I'm not a basher, but does anyone else find this description offensive? Why even mention that they were Chinese? You didn't mention the ethnicity of any of the other offenders. When he got out of jail, do you think Gary Fernandez went back to Mexico to [insert racial stereotype here]?
Just wondering.
JTB
>>
ughh, unbelievable
How is this discriminatory? What do ya want him to say?
People from another country on this planet who may have been involved in organized crime , possibly from the Far Eastern part of the world etc, etc, etc,
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>i think it should be addressed by the actual "Sung Lian" Triad name.. >>
pA - These are not the gentlemen who built the railroads - Asian-American is the preferred nomenclature.
And I think that this proves that none of us, not even the President of CU, is above a little thread hijacking every now and then.
ERIC
<< <i> It's kind of like that game you played in elementary school, when the teacher tells the first kid something and it goes down the line to the last kid, and the story is all exaggerated. >>
CADILLACN97 - that exact same thought crossed my mind more than once in the last few days.
Great minds must think alike ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I too feel better about my heavy investment in PSA-graded cards, and feel bad for those who indicated they were going to switch them to other grading companies. I hope they saw David Hall's statement before cracking too many slabs.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>
i think most of us understood.. coincidentally, the person who was offended has his profile hidden.. >>
But, Mr. Einstein, they log IP addresses. If he really wants to know, he can find out exactly who I am. >>
This is simply not true. I work for an large internet access provider and the only way we and our peers will give out customer information is with a subpoena.
A request from any company like PSA or really any company to identify someone would not even get a response without law enforcement involvement.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
i think most of us understood.. coincidentally, the person who was offended has his profile hidden.. >>
But, Mr. Einstein, they log IP addresses. If he really wants to know, he can find out exactly who I am. >>
This is simply not true. I work for an large internet access provider and the only way we and our peers will give out customer information is with a subpoena.
A request from any company like PSA or really any company to identify someone would not even get a response without law enforcement involvement. >>
From what I've noticed, it appears that the majority of the rumors/lies regarding WIWAG/PSA/CU are directly and/or indirectly coming from a person named Greg Schwartz (BOTN). I was wondering if CU/PSA has considered taking legal action against Mr. Schwartz. It's my understanding that this individual has been making libelous comments about your company for many years.
<< <i>ughh, unbelievable
How is this discriminatory? What do ya want him to say?
People from another country on this planet who may have been involved in organized crime , possibly from the Far Eastern part of the world etc, etc, etc,
Well put, Softparade. Last I checked "Chinese" referred not just to ethnicity, but also to nationality. Substitute "Canadian" or "Norwegian, is it still offensive?
Fact: there is a country called China. Fact: there is organized crime in that country (as there is in all countries). "Chinese Mafia" is no more racist than "English Premier League".
thanks you for doing what we have all asked.
GG
PS: Had some "asian" food tonight. more specifically "chinese", although i'm not certain if it was indeed made by chinese people. I really had no idea that "oriental" pertained to objects, and "asian" referred to people. Very interesting, but talk about blowing stuff out of proportion, jeez.
happy endings
GG
This was a good thing to do that Mr Hall came out and set the record straight. To have an opinion is one thing, but to out right fabricate stories is unethical, classless and does not belong.
I am wondering why no one has asked about the certification numbers of slabs that might have been affected by WIWAG. Is it even a legitimate question anymore? Would the information help? Does the information exist? I do not know too much about how this information is valuable, but I know people were talking about it a lot.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
GG
I liken this to a product recall. You need to gather all that you can, and educate the public to turn in whatever they have. You also need to have an idea of exactly how many tainted cards are out there so that you will know when they are all back.
My All-Time Oakland Raiders