Auctioning a Great Set - is it a mistake?
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
Isn't this set worth more as a set than the individual pieces? Isn't it a mistake to sell the set individually at auction and give up the set premium?
Granted, most sets are only worth what the individual coins are worth, but I think there are exceptions. This is one of those exceptions.
Granted, most sets are only worth what the individual coins are worth, but I think there are exceptions. This is one of those exceptions.
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Comments
Russ, NCNE
Again I think that "this" market is key. Especially with all the focus on set building, complete collections, etc.
How long did it take Mr. Scher to build it?
Seth
Think about this how many folks need individual 3c nickel? Is high end 3c nickel market hot?
How many folks play the 3c nickels set registry games?
Checking into number 2,3,4 positions in the set registry, I did not see too much overlap about the demand. Don't expect these folks will bid the price up.
If the set is Walkers, buffalo nickels or SLQs, then the story will be different, IMHO.
There might well be individuals who would like to have the finest possible set in a series, who would be willing to negotiate a purchase of the set outright. Before auctioning, I might have put out feelers to see if such individuals were out there, though dealers who might know.
Of course, Bruce may already have done all of this.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
You may be the exception, not the rule. Why dont you post (honestly) what you would have paid for it BEFORE the final auction tally. Then, regarding this set, we'll get our answer.
----Lloyd
It's a set I would have liked to own in its entirety, but I won't play at auction. And I guarantee there are others that feel the same.
If you were the newest Eliasberg, it makes sense - your filling a hole.
If you specialize in the series and can buy the collection at a reasonable price, cherry pick the best and consign the remainder to your dealer partner, it makes sense.
If you're neither and need a few to finish the set or are looking for a type coin, it makes no sense.
If your me....why would I want to buy a bunch of 3c pieces.....
I have noticed a few more people drifting into the proof 3CN family over the last few months.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
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Ok thanks, now I can ask.
Weren't there a few auctions back in the mid 1990's including the Norweb auctions in which some sets were sold by the coin with a final lot representing the entire group of coins that serves as a overriding and superseding winning bid only if the group price was greater than the sum of the individual coins winning lot prices?
Whatever happened to this auctioning approach?
The history of those auctions, if I recall were less than stellar but then again occurred in a very different market????
The Starr lib nickels were all high end, probably more 67's than any other set sold so far. Knoxville collection is another example of coins being all of an exceptional quality. So it is with the Scher various series of coins.
But there also recent examples of complete sets being sold, with the owner not looking to the auction site, and being satisfied with the market pricing of his/her coins. Frank Thomas MS lib Nickels, Pinnacle Proof Barber halves.
TDN, thanks for throwing this issue up for discussion. I also belong to the group that believes the individual prices at auction or private sale will beat an offer for the entire series intact. There will always be a few(if not several) coins that will approach the moon, that would not otherwise occur if all the coins were purchased outright by one person.
BTW, I think it's time for coinguy1 to change his moniker from 'Dealer', to 'Masterdebater'. But of course, one has to be very careful with that word!
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Stewart
Then after careful study, I figured it out.
Whatever happened to this auctioning approach?
I've seen this approach fairly recently. It was for a set of Canadian Small Cents, think it was at the CAND auction of 2003.
My World Coin Type Set
With all due respect, what does this set and the average collector have to do with one another?
The average collector isn't going to step up and pay what this set would have commanded on the private market. Twenty average collectors buying one or two coins each still wouldn't pay what this set would have brought privately.
So far, no one has discussed the 10% that Heritage is taking off the top. Nor have they discussed the one thing that might make it all worthwhile to auction it .... that a set of this magnitude might add value realized to the other coins in his other sets that are auctioned at the same time.
As far as the Scher pedigree having intrinsic value ... hey, I love the guy ...... but..... let's be realistic.
Obviously, I know I have a few coins out of my sets that everyone wants. Only a few. Those are the ones I know would bring good money at auction. But what about the coin that has two guys that MUST have it and that I feel might bring $10k but brings $25k?
Great discussion and one that I will watch carefully as someday I intend to sell my sets. All three of them.....My plan was to sell them together at auction.....
I just agree with Coinguy that any dealer and/or well heeled collector would buy my sets. But at a premium? I am not sure.....Maybe Duckor, Friend, or Blay.....But mine? I doubt it! Last I heard coins with my name on them were being offered at a 20% discount!
My $10 Indian Gold Registry Set
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
I would NOT place the Trade Dollar set in auction if I cared about the price realized as I don't believe there to be sufficient underbidders to drive the individual prices. In auction, the underbidder is key. Coins realize slightly above what the underbidder values them at. Privately, the set would realize slightly above or below what the top bidder values them at.
In the past several years I have seen great sets trade hands at values I don't believe can be replicated in the auction arena. The sets were priced where only the top bidder had interest - and had to stretch at that. I agree that in most instances the individual coin prices will drive the value, but in certain cases I believe the set drives the value. And private sale is the way to realize the best price while maintaining the integrity of the set.
TIMING...this varies according to several things like the stockmarket...how rich do you feel today??...are there big players such as a sports team owner or real estate mogal who would put the set away for long term or put it inot a trust....is dwight pushing the central america items now thus busy or looking for items...how deep is the collector base and how well heeled are they...can the coins be improved..if so how many and how long and how much
i will say as we all know auction houses hype the 70,000 oregons and wisconsins....but they never advertize the coins that go begging
the reality is imho ...buy great coins and be in the market for a long time and sell how the dynamics at the time tell you which couse to take and youll do just fine
as far as tdn`s comment....i think he was saying....he didnt think the avenue of private treaty was considered....and since the heavy players were surprized at the consignment i have to agree with him that it wasnt considered....thus the end result ( auction ) cash to the seller could/would be less than a private treaty
key words here are " heavy players "...and i know they didnt know
also what tdn is saying ( i think ) is....the cost of having your name in lights and on the catalogue might be more expensive than you think....and in light of the fact the set was not offered privately...well...is not maximizing the sale.....which is also PART of collecting and cements the ultimate cudos of " a job well done and the checkbook verifies it " ....which when you think about it is also worth many oooohs and aweeeees...as another put their money where their mouth is
monsterman
ps...as chief crazyhorse..." i speak the truth"
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
So if we use your idea, how would you market the set and to whom? If you shop the set around, then I think you degrade the set. OR, do you just price the coins and add a premium based on what you perceive the value to be? Perhaps come up with a number and offer it at that price.....IT may work but how would you know that you are not short changing yourself?
My $10 Indian Gold Registry Set
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
There are multiple well heeled buyers interested in numismatic trophies. Individually, not a single three cent piece can be considered a trophy. But the set as a whole is. That's my point.
If you shop the set around, then I think you degrade the set.
Perhaps. Yet the Share Collection was on the market for over a year before I stepped up and bought it in order to get at a couple of irreplaceable trophies. There are buyers just waiting for that type of opportunity.
OR, do you just price the coins and add a premium based on what you perceive the value to be?
Yes.
Perhaps come up with a number and offer it at that price.....IT may work but how would you know that you are not short changing yourself?
You pays your money and you takes your chances. Who knows top end trade dollar pricing better than myself? Who knows top end three cent nickel pricing better than Bruce Scher? It's simply a matter of educating the buyer. The ones that are willing to pay a fair price to get a numismatic trophy are definitely out there.
>>>Perhaps. Yet the Share Collection was on the market for over a year before I stepped up and bought it in order to get at a couple of irreplaceable trophies. There are buyers just waiting for that type of opportunity>>>
tdn is 100% correct here...when jack lee negociated with george bodway a long time to buy his morgan set...both knew their positions and when jack finnaly bought it..it made him the king of morgans forever....i know....i was the squirel under the bird feeder catching the dups...and the dups were UNBELIEVABLE i can assure you....and the grading services agreed with me...thus the combination of the 2 sets made it`s duplication impossible...and when the eliasburg 89 cc in 68 came out in 1997...it sealed the deal even more....however...if bodway auctioned his set....some of us would of been sniping and george would of seen less money..imho
so jack had george and george had jack and in the middle was a deal...and if george autioned.... jack would of had george...in fact we all would of had a piece of george...on "his dime "
monsterman
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman
opps i pulled a mel tillis and stuttered
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Let's take trade dollars for example. There are very few individual coins that people would just have to have. Even the gem 1878-CC that I just put into auction didn't meet the reserve [it later sold privately at $100k - what I paid for it 8 years ago!]. If I hadn't protected the value by being the underbidder on a coin I really didn't want, the MS68 1878-S from the Lull Collection would have sold for around $80k - barely above what it sold for in 1990! But if I was figuring my set, I'd have figured the 78-CC at $137,500 and the 78-S at $125,000. And there's no doubt in my mind I'd get it.
Auction is not always the best route.
Bruce Scher
Did you keep the Share collection intact ? Or was the purchase for the single reason to obtain several coins, and then the sale of the remainder?
The premium that you suggest be paid for the entire set, because it is the intact set than demands a premium, vanishes when the set is broken up, doesn't it? Did you break up the Share collection? Or did you not pay a premium to obtain all the coins?
There is a distinct difference between an entire series of MS or Proof coins, and a small group of coins that seem to remain together over the course of time. Such as King of Siam, Amazonion, Pan Pac original box and coins, proof sets with original info, all similarly toned. These coins may very well remain together for generations.
Even if one passionate collector did buy Scher's 3CN, or even the Proof halves (also finest known at PCGS), it will still be the sale of the coins individually that will bring out the big bucks for enough of the results to exceed the single price for the whole group.
Auction versus consignment to a major dealer for marketing is another question. Laura believes that the Lull collection type set would have brought more if sold privately, but not necessarily to one person. That may be, but as solid as that set was, I do not see a premium paid for the entire collection intact. The prices of the individual coins, with the pedigree of a great collector, would be enough.
Dale: there are very few sets where I would argue that the set brings a premium. Most are purchased just to get at a few coins [as with the Share Collection], or are sold individually. The Scher Collection of MS Three Cent nickels is such an outstanding set - head and shoulders above its competition - that I believe there is indeed set premium.
I too have given your proposition more thought. They may be a time in the future that more complete series, assembled by passionate collectors, will remain intact, and be passed from generation to generation. And with a premium to boot.
The excitement generated in the year 2035 when a set that stayed together for 30 years comes back on the market will blow the top off of pricing. Think of the grade inflation, the hits on a 67 that will be allowed, the lack of original toning on coins of that day and the premium you speak of will be astronomical.
I'm just sorry I will not be there to participate.
I kept kicking myself that I could not afford them in 1996 when the Norweb auction took place but then suddenly was fortunate enough to pay the higher price just 18 months later.
As a result, I was willing to pay a premium at the time to avoid getting into a feared bidding war over the 5c and 25c.
So fear, sentiment, desire, finances and timing are important factors.
---Lloyd
is unbelievable.
(I guess that it is time for me to go back to the poor collector's section!)
Stewart
I am serious collector of the nickel three's but I wouldn't buy the set as an entity.
Why shell out megabucks for the entire set instead of focusing the resources I do have on the five upgrades I'd like to get? Yes, I'll probably pay more for each of the five upgrades. But overall? I'll be paying a heckuva a lot less doing it this way.
And while I'm at it: Congratulations to Mr. Scher for piecing together the greatest set of this beautiful and difficult coin. Gosh, some of those coins he got are so hard to find, I've been searching for a decade for them -- and haven't found them.
Enjoy!
Just Having Fun!
Would it not then be fair for me as a buyer to bid on say 5 lots I really want, win them all, then say I only want two of them, because I thought there would be a chance some of the winning lots would be taken away from me?
What IS the auction house rule on this? Shouldnt the sales of individual lots of a set have a disclaimer from Heritage (or whatever house) that "even though you won the lot after all floor, phone, internet, etc. bids, there is a possibility you did not win if the set is sold in its completion after the set's final auction prices realized etc.".
----Lloyd
Stewart
<< <i>Madmonk: Yikes with your use of acronyms!!!!! ( couldn't figure out who CG1 was !!!!
Then after careful study, I figured it out.
I'm sorry
Heritage has been doing this for quite some time with classic proof sets. It seems to work ok. They offer the group at a 5% premium over the individual bids immediately after the individual lots are auctioned. You will know right away if you are not going to win a lot.
<< <i>Boy, I learn something everyday. The case of "I am the lot winner, no I guess I am NOT" would play heavy if all the lots sold individually, then Heritage can decide to open it all again as a "set sale". Of course it benefits the consignor and auction site, but it goes back to Windycity's thread "Bad Experience with Heritage Fun Auction" - without any prior disclaimer, how it just would be a sticky outcome - having all these lot winners, then to be told they did NOT win the lot. What if the individual lot winners would have bid something else, and wanted to, but knew they had to pay for a lot they had THOUGHT they won?
Would it not then be fair for me as a buyer to bid on say 5 lots I really want, win them all, then say I only want two of them, because I thought there would be a chance some of the winning lots would be taken away from me?
What IS the auction house rule on this? Shouldnt the sales of individual lots of a set have a disclaimer from Heritage (or whatever house) that "even though you won the lot after all floor, phone, internet, etc. bids, there is a possibility you did not win if the set is sold in its completion after the set's final auction prices realized etc.".
----Lloyd >>
Lloyd I have seen most of the auction companies do this. The lots are lumped together on the web page with an explanation of what the rules are so the bidder is well aware of the guidelines for bidding. Recently I have only seen this done with proof sets.
SOOOO, TDN, you buying the complete set?
---Lloyd
<< <i>When is this set being auctioned? >>
I don't know, does anyone else?
<< <i>
<< <i>When is this set being auctioned? >>
It will be included in the upcoming Heritage Long Beach sale next month. >>
thanks!