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Are these $5 Indian heads Fake ? Good Pics 1914's and 1910

Bass2005Bass2005 Posts: 44
in U.S. Coin Forum
Are these five dollars Fake or not ???
I bought them at the Paris Coin Show while in Paris, France.
The Rims on the the 1914's do not look right. on the 1910 it looks nice and I bought it form another seller at the show.
any Grades on these Coins ??

image

Comments

  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355 ✭
    If they're not, the population of ms66-67 indians in these dates just went up.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    They look like counterfeits to me - sorry.
  • MillertimeMillertime Posts: 2,048 ✭✭


    << <i>They look like counterfeits to me - sorry. >>



    How did you determine they were fakes? Specifics if possible.

    Thanks,
    Millertime
    Mercury Dime Set (rattlers)
    Complete Dime Set

    image
  • Bass2005Bass2005 Posts: 44
    the Rims have a slight blump on one side. You really cannot see the bump unless you use a 10X or a 5x Magnification Any comments ???
  • tlhoytlhoy Posts: 2,204
    The "LL" in Dollar doesn't look right.

    Can you give us a full shot of 1 coin both sides?
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>How did you determine they were fakes? Specifics if possible >>

    Certainly a fair question - now you're going to make me work for my pay.

    One thing I noticed is the too-similar of an appearance between the fields and the devices - they should look different/distinct in terms of luster, texture (which is too uniform), etc.

    Also, there is a conspicuous lack of detail in the Indian's headdress/feathers, in particular.

    Generally speaking, when gold coins look too good, they are in fact "bad" as in fake. image

    Please note, images can be misleading and I might be incorrect in my assessment, but I'm pretty darned sure in this instance.
  • Bass2005Bass2005 Posts: 44
    Here is a pic of the LL's in the Dollar. Plus upon looking at them now I see that the 1914's front and back are not alligned like the 1910 they are off 30 degree angle versus the 1910 is at 180 degree angle. ??


    image
  • tlhoytlhoy Posts: 2,204
    See the difference in the "LL" Right picture is in a PCGS slab.


    imageimage
  • tlhoytlhoy Posts: 2,204
    I don't collect gold coins so I can't tell you if they are real or not.
    I'm just saying what I see. The 'L", "A" & "R" don't look the same & the top talon on the left foot appears to be out of place.

    Repeat: I don't collect gold coins so I could be totally wrong here

    Glenn
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Generally speaking, when gold coins look too good, they are in fact "bad" as in fake."

    This is a good rule of thumb. The lack of detail doesn't make these Indians look "good," however. What makes them look "good" is the lack of marks on the surfaces.

    Bass, how much did you pay for these, if I may ask? This is not really my or anyone else's business so if you don't care to share this information with us all that certainly is your perogative.

    It might be instructive, in a constructive way, for others if you decide to disclose here how much you paid.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    I collect this series and my first response at the photos is they sure are flat. No breast plate, flat feathers, no hint of luster, wrong color, dull coin...I'm not gonna say if they are real or fake because I can't see them but those photos wouldn't get me to pull any money from my pocket. They are well done though.
  • Bass2005Bass2005 Posts: 44
    200 euros each for the 1914's and 270 euro for the 1910. that would be $260 each for the 1914's and $351 for the 1910.
  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭


    << <i>200 euros each for the 1914's and 270 euro for the 1910. that would be $260 each for the 1914's and $351 for the 1910. >>



    What inspired you to spend that much on these coins raw if you could not accurately identify if they were fake or not? By the way, the 14s both have the same scratch/crack/indentation under United on the reverse, which means they were likely both punched off the same die - I'm not aware of any varieties from the Mint that have this attribute. About 90% certainty that these are counterfeit based on the pictures.
    Mr. Thigpen

    Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
  • Bass2005Bass2005 Posts: 44
    i bought a lot of coins at the show, i got a $20 1874 for 550 euros about $700 and it got rated as an MS63.
    and many others but these ones i did not send yet ...
  • dthigpendthigpen Posts: 3,932 ✭✭


    << <i>i bought a lot of coins at the show, i got a $20 1874 for 550 euros about $700 and it got rated as an MS63.
    and many others but these ones i did not send yet ... >>



    Well send them into ANACS and see what they have to say, then. Regardless, if you scored a 1874 Double Eagle that made it into MS63 PCGS Plastic for $700, then you've paid for any possible mistakes and then some.
    Mr. Thigpen

    Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
  • Bass2005Bass2005 Posts: 44
    I have a bad feeling about these coins ..............
  • ibzman350ibzman350 Posts: 5,315 ✭


    << <i>i bought a lot of coins at the show, i got a $20 1874 for 550 euros about $700 and it got rated as an MS63.
    and many others but these ones i did not send yet ... >>




    You have any pics of the 1874 ???



    Herb
    Remember it's not how you pick your nose that matters, it's where you put the boogers.
    imageimageimage
  • GATGAT Posts: 3,146 ✭
    Having been stationed for years in Europe and making many trips back I say these Indians are counterfeit. I have waked the streets of such Cities as Basel, Zurich, Amsterdam and Frankfurt and seen these coins in many shop windows. The merchants don't bother to remove them at night as all the natives know they are fake. Sorry.
    USAF vet 1951-59
  • sadysta1sadysta1 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭
    Also S in PLURIBUS looks the same for both dates - same die.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They look bad to me. The relief is all wrong. The coins seem to lack detail on the highest points, yet they don't seem to be worn. That's one of the tell-tale signs of "not made at an official U.S. mint. Sorry. image
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • MillertimeMillertime Posts: 2,048 ✭✭


    << <i>I have a bad feeling about these coins .............. >>



    I feel your pain. These $5 and the $2.5 Indians are my favorites designs. My first purchase (which Mark Feld, aka coinguy1, was kind enough to evaluate for me) was a 1909 $2.5 Indian graded by NTC as MS63. It's at PCGS now but has a decent chance of being BB'd for a cleaning. If it isn't BB's then Mark says the grade should be MS61. It's not a total loss because I paid 62 money ($540) for it and not 63 money ($1900).

    Millertime
    Mercury Dime Set (rattlers)
    Complete Dime Set

    image
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "What inspired you to spend that much on these coins raw if you could not accurately identify if they were fake or not?"

    Please allow me to respond to this question.

    If Bass got burned it wasn't as bad as it can get. Getting really burned would be if he had paid over a $1000 each (MS 63 common date Indian 5's are listed @ $1750 in 2005 Red book) for these strongly-suspected-by-most-of-us here to be fake Indians. Bass got first degree burns instead of third degree burns. That's just my opinion.

    The pieces looked good to Bass and that's why he bought them. The coins looked "right," the price seemed "right."
    Considerations concerning Bass's spending "that much" are not all that useful, Doug.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
    Well I am going against the norm on these- or at least I am ging to say I don't see anything that makes think they are counterfiet. First off the scans are all washed out- not much to go and of course the colors will look the same. Secondly these coins are XF or so- look at the breast feathers on the shoulders. Third the commom counterfiets I have seen have jagged die like cracks around the stars and edges from the spark erosion process of making dies. My guess is they are polished and grade XF. If you can show them to a dealer in person he should be able to tell you pretty quick just by the color. mike image
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    darktone, you might want to take a closer look at tlhoy's side-by-side close-up images. Note the sharpness in detail of the PCGS coin and compare to Bass's coin.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • ibzman350ibzman350 Posts: 5,315 ✭


    << <i>darktone, you might want to take a closer look at tlhoy's side-by-side close-up images. Note the sharpness in detail of the PCGS coin and compare to Bass's coin. >>




    Look at the olive branch, or whatever kinda branch that is, they don't look the same to me.


    I bought a raw Indian at auction, gonna dig up the pics and compare my coin to the pics posted. (fingers crossed).


    Herb

    edited to add........YES, mine looks like the real deal!!!

    Remember it's not how you pick your nose that matters, it's where you put the boogers.
    imageimageimage
  • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
    I think the coins in question have been polished and the scans are such it is hard to tell much. The lettering for sure looks different but is that the pic and wear? Here's an obverse pic of a fake $5 indian I had a while back- wish I had the reverse picture also. mike image
      image
    • ibzman350ibzman350 Posts: 5,315 ✭
      Darktone......Clues as to what makes this coin a fake ?



      Herb

      Remember it's not how you pick your nose that matters, it's where you put the boogers.
      imageimageimage
    • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
      color-texture and overall look made it easy to identify in person. By the scan I think you can see those things a bit. Also this coin had those die crack like marks. This one came out of Europe. mike
    • ibzman350ibzman350 Posts: 5,315 ✭
      These Indians are all new to me, thanx for the lesson.



      Herb
      Remember it's not how you pick your nose that matters, it's where you put the boogers.
      imageimageimage
    • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


      << <i>Certainly a fair question - now you're going to make me work for my pay. >>



      Mark, Should I send you a Dollar?
      Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

      “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
      Newmismatist
    • jomjom Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭✭✭
      Mike: I don't think I agree here. The upper portion of the back leg of the eagle and belly is never worn before other portions of the reverse. It seems to me lack of detail from the original strike and usually that area has got detail. Where you usually see weak strike is in the headdress and eagle's wing. Your fake looks MUCH more real...except for that weird luster on the face....

      I also think those rims are a dead giveaway....

      jom
    • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
      This thread is excellent brain food. image

      Russ, NCNE
      eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
    • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
      Jom, I agree the reeding on that close up pic does look funny. Just hope they are at least gold so if they are fake it is not a total loss- actually some counterfiets bring pretty good money. mike image

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