Is this $5 Gold a Fake??? (The Latest Development)

Murphy · January 20, 2005 10:50AM

lordmarcovan · January 20, 2005 10:53AM

If so, it would fool me. Looks okay to me, but what do I know?

ozzysdad · January 20, 2005 10:54AM

I'll give you 5.00 for it........... in a heartbeat

grip · January 20, 2005 10:56AM

I know very little about gold coins,but the MM looks strange,Is that an S?And maybe a well placed bag mark?
Al

Ryana · January 20, 2005 10:58AM

What's the stuff around the date and the arrowheads? If it is copper spots, I'd say no, it's not fake.

Murphy · January 20, 2005 10:59AM

I sold it on EBay this week and the guy says it's a fake. His friend also thinks it's fake. ...because it has a square mint mark. Actually the mint has a partial S but does have some square on more than one side. I don't know how to tell if it's counterfeit. I know the rim is perfect - I did check that before I sold it. But if any of you gold gurus think this is fake, lemme know please. I have offered to refund the money if the guy will return the coin. If you thnk it's a good coin, I might try another auction but if y'all think it's fake, I'll take it back to where I got it and get MY money back. Thanks.

ccex · January 20, 2005 11:00AM

Looks good to me, too, but I don't know a lot about these coins, either. Of the five U.S. half eagles I've owned (all purchased raw), one was an obvious fake -- the better date 1911-D. Since 1880-S is a common date, I doubt that the mintmark was added.

Murphy · January 20, 2005 11:01AM

The dark areas on the reverse look like dirt. That's the best description I can give.

robertpr · January 20, 2005 11:08AM

Why don't you have the guy send it to ANACS for certification and offer to refund the coin's purchase price as well as the cert fees if it comes back in a bag as a counterfeit?

Ryana · January 20, 2005 11:09AM

By chance does the dirt look anything like what's going on in the denticles and the hair on this coin:

These are copper spots, usually not found on fakes.

MrEureka · January 20, 2005 11:13AM

Looks good to me.

Murphy · January 20, 2005 11:15AM

It could be copper spots, but I would think more like "dirt" than spotting. I didn't try cleaning it and I don't have the coin in my posession at the moment, so I can't tell ya for certain which it is.

Oh, and as far as having the guy send it to ANACS or somewhere for grading, I'm not going to put him through all that. He can gladly have a refund. I just wanna know if I should resell it or take it back where I got it from. Thanks.

nwcs · January 20, 2005 11:16AM

Nothing fake looking to me. Solid AU-50 to me.

Coinhusker1 · January 20, 2005 11:21AM

Filled mintmarks are common. The buyer does not know what he is talking about.

Send him a link to this thread, and suggest he take it to a coin dealer for a looksee.

ziggy29 · January 20, 2005 11:27AM

Looks completely authentic to me. I see nothing that leads me to believe it's fake.

nankraut · January 20, 2005 11:32AM

Looks like a genuine coin to me. What reason did the buyer give you for thinking it was counterfiet?

Murphy · January 20, 2005 11:39AM

Here's what he says about the coin...

#1 email
" I purchased this coin from you and myself and one other coin expert have determined it to be counterfeit. I would appreciate a response from you on your position on this. Thank you..."

#2 email
"Just so you'll know , this coin is a fraction too large in diameter and if you pull up the pictures from your auction page , you will clearly see that the mint mark is not an "s" but simply a box. I have bought many gold coins off ebay and I am in no way shape or form accusing you of fraud , but this one clearly is not genuine. I compared it to several other "s" mintmark half eagles that i have and this dog won't hunt. Thanks again and please advise..."

ziggy29 · January 20, 2005 11:44AM

<< <i>" I purchased this coin from you and myself and one other coin expert have determined it to be counterfeit. I would appreciate a response from you on your position on this. Thank you..."

#2 email
"Just so you'll know , this coin is a fraction too large in diameter and if you pull up the pictures from your auction page , you will clearly see that the mint mark is not an "s" but simply a box. I have bought many gold coins off ebay and I am in no way shape or form accusing you of fraud , but this one clearly is not genuine. I compared it to several other "s" mintmark half eagles that i have and this dog won't hunt. Thanks again and please advise..." >>

I like the idea of having the buyer send it to ANACS and if it comes back fake, you return the purchase price, all shipping and grading fees...and if it comes back authentic, the deal is done.

Having said that, I wouldn't *force* a buyer to keep a raw coin they thought was fake if they returned it promptly, but if I were convinced of its authenticity I'd be inclined to block them in the future.

darktone · January 20, 2005 11:58AM

Looks very real to me from the picture. I don't see one thing to lead me to believe it's a fake. It all looks good- a die filled mint mark is about as common a thing as is seen. Looks like these buyers should stay away from raw gold because if they deem this one a fake the ones they think are real are probably counterfiet. mike

mr1931S · January 20, 2005 12:03PM

"...this coin is a fraction too large in diameter..."

A well-made cast forgery (good detail and almost no bubbles) would be slightly undersize. It would also be underweight.

He doesn't know what he's talking about. Forget any offers for him to send to ANACS blah blah blah. He's wasting your time with his BS.

Ryana · January 20, 2005 12:13PM

With gold, though, it is the die-struck counterfeits you have to look out for. I agree that the seller doesn't know what they're talking about when it comes to the mint mark. How many 1880-S half eagles have they examined?

Real or fake, I'd just take the coin back, give the buyer a refund and be done with it. If you want to send it to ANACS, do it after you get it back and give the buyer their refund.

morgannut2 · January 20, 2005 12:14PM

If the ones he's comparing them to are smaller, they're the ones that might be fake. What does the coin weigh? A filled mint mark tells you nothing. Get the coin back and send to ANACS if you're unsure.

Millertime · January 20, 2005 12:29PM

Do you think that there's the possibiltiy he's going to try to switch a fake he has with your real one?

Murphy · January 20, 2005 12:47PM

No. My photos will I.D. the coin to my satisfaction. He won't get his money back until I have the spitting image of the coin pictured. It's the only gold coin I ever owned, so there'll be no getting it mixed up with another one. That's the one I sent and that's the one I'll receive if a refund is to be taken.

BTW, he seems like a good guy that just don't like filled mint marks. I wish he'd noticed the mint mark before bidding, but oh well. It's done and if he wants a refund fine. He can have it. If I sell it again, I'll say something to the effect that "this coin has been looked at by experts and the consensus is, it is authentic" despite a filled mint mark and slightly larger diameter, which means more gold, more value. I'll weigh it, post the weight and give the exact diameter.

mr1931S · January 20, 2005 12:49PM

Short of sending to ANACS, I would do my own specific gravity test on the piece. If it passes this test, it's genuine, almost without a doubt.

dorkkarl · January 20, 2005 8:39PM

genuine. your customer is full of cr@p

K S

MadMonk · January 20, 2005 9:13PM

I concur with Karl of Dork. That looks genuine to me.

tlhoy · January 20, 2005 10:40PM

Coin 1.......................................................Coin 2......................................................Coin 3

The 3 top coins are PCGS or NGC graded 1880-S coins from past auctions. Links are above each coin.
Your coin is on the bottom.
The thing that bugs me about your coin is the position of your mint mark. But I don't know if that matters.

Glenn

mr1931S · January 21, 2005 2:22AM

There are varying mint mark positions for these. The "blob" appearance of "S" is common.

Its not likely to be a die struck forgery but the possibility exists, albeit slight, that since this is a relatively inexpensive common date, it is a "trial" piece made to answer a basic question: How good can I (a forger) make these look?

Looks good enough to be passable to expert-in-knowledge, eagle-eye collectors or dealers? Now we move on to higher grade, rarer date, more expensive-in-price fakes. The beauty, if you will, in having some well-made dies in one's possession is that more than one good fake can be made in little time provided that the planchets are ready to go.

The planchets are most problematic for the forger because they need to be made to exacting U.S. mint standards by exact processes if the fake manufactured therefrom is subjected to, let us say, more than "passing glance" scrutiny. Planchets have to be manufactured by the forger, or purchased from a manufacturer of such, since genuine blank gold planchets are not obtainable.

Melting down some common date genuine gold coins and making planchets to U.S. mint exacting standards is much easier said than done. A properly prepared, "exact" planchet is key to making a good to excellent die-struck fake.
And this is where the forger is most likely to screw up. The major grading services know this and have the sophisticated testing equipment at their disposal to detect even the most excellent of die-struck forgeries.

Buy or sell raw gold on faceless ebay? Not advised. If one really does prefer small-size raw gold over encapsulated then buy the coins face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball locally at a shop or at a show from an established dealer. This way you can take the raw coin back to the dealer if you ever have reason to believe it's fake. A reputable, presumably knowledgeable dealer will definitely "make it good" for you. No pun intended.

dorkkarl · January 21, 2005 2:53AM

frankly, if that coin were fake, it would be worth MORE then the real thing. i'd pay $100 over the price of a real 1 right now.

K S

mr1931S · January 21, 2005 3:03AM

That's the spirit, dorkkarl.

Outhaul · January 21, 2005 3:11AM

I think it's a case of buyer's remorse and he's fabricating this as an out.

Cheers,

Bob

SemperFI · January 21, 2005 3:23AM

Refund the guys money. Get the coin back. Send it to ANACS. Resell if you want to.

You will get more money for it as it will be graded and authenticated. With ANACS, people will know it is not a fake.

I agree with Dorkkarl. If this coin is a fake, make sure ANACS holders it as such. People will pay more money for a fake this good.

Either way, send it to ANACS. That is my opinion.

tlhoy · January 21, 2005 3:34AM

The person who bought it (golddigger3000) has bought a lot of gold coins.

Maybe he just doesn't like the coin. Refund his money. Make SURE he sends you the same coin!

Glenn

mr1931S · January 21, 2005 3:54AM

"If this coin is a fake, make sure ANACS holders it as such."

ANACS will not holder a forged coin.

mr1931S · January 21, 2005 4:18AM

The buyer has bought a few relatively inexpensive, non certified, Liberty and Indian gold coins on ebay. Perhaps a few of these purchases, he's beginning to question authenticity.

Morgan dollars seems to be his main interest.

lathmach · January 21, 2005 4:20AM

<< <i>The person who bought it (golddigger3000) has bought a lot of gold coins.

Glenn >>

The link to the auction seems to answer at least one question, that of why the guy bought the coin without regard to the mintmark.
There's no picture of the reverse in the auction.
Edited: BTW, I collect counterfeits, and I don't believe that coin is bad.

Ray

Murphy · January 21, 2005 4:37AM

There's no photo of the reverse, but there is a LINK to one. I could not figure out how to put a photo of the reverse on there at the time, so I just put a link to the photo of the reverse. Now I know how to do obverse and reverse photos both in one auction.

Murphy · January 23, 2005 1:35AM

Got this email today from Golddigger3000. He's a good man and I assume he's going to keep the coin:

(Y)ou have shown a lot of character in dealing with me on this matter and for that , i thank you. I took this coin to a very trusted dealer and he assured me that it was genuine. The other expert that i consulted had never dealt with raw coins before. I apologize for any problems this may have caused you , but please know that I had to be as sure as possible as this particular coin was intended to be a gift for my unborn grandson. I sincerely do appreciate the professionalism with which you've dealt with me on this and I do apologize once again for any grief that I may have caused you. I will most assuredly leave positive feedback for you. Thank you again , (Golddigger3000)