Selling to Dealers
Darrin1
Posts: 4
Hi all.
Let me start by saying I am not a collector but recently inherited a collection. The collection is relatively small, about 3,000 cards and includes mostly baseball and hockey. Not knowing very much about the collection or collecting itself I started sorting through the cards to identify what was in it. I also started reading up on the hobby and I have learned the most by reading the different threads in this forum. However I still have a few questions and hope you guys can help. As interesting as going through the cards and learning about collecting has been I don't want to be a collector and simply want to get a fair price for the cards.
After logging about 2,000 of the cards I took a few of them to a small card show and a dealer just to get an idea of the best way to sell them. Now this is where my confusion sets in. In both cases, the show and at a dealer's store, the first thing they did was quickly flipped through the cards and dismissed them as not being very good but when I started gathering them up to leave and feeling a little sheepish about having shown them clearly unworthy cards they started to talk endlessly about the cards and what I was going to do with them. A couple of things they said raised questions in my mind.
First, I was told by the one at the show that eventhough they were't that great he would buy the lot off of me and that I shouldn't bother myself with sorting through them all. (Okay that set off some alarms, I may not be a collector but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday either) When I didn't jump at this idea he suggested that since he had a good presence on ebay with a lot of positive feedback he would sell my cards for me and charge 50%. (I think there might have been a sliding scale for the higher valued cards some where in the neighbourhood of 30%) When I asked about getting some of the higher valued cards graded he told me not to waste my money as experienced collectors would know the true value of the card without the grading and he could get me that price.
I got similar advice at the dealers who also suggested that I sell through him but he would only charge 20%. However he would only sell the higher vaued cards and not the common ones. He also suggested not getting them graded as I would run the risk of devaluing the card. I showed him the 1968 O-PEE-CHEE #177 Ryan card from the collection. (I have attached a scan of it - front and back) He said that it was likely a PSA 5 or at best a 6. He also said that becase it was OPC it was not as valuable as Topps. He basically made the americans collect baseball and they don't like the canadian cards argument. The best he said I would do for this card was about $200. He did offer me $250 cdn for the 20 cards I brought in which included a 1958 Clemente (#52) and 8 Willie Mays from the 50s, 60s and 70s. (5 topps and 3 OPC) So after my sad story I am left with these questions:
1/ Should I get the higher valued cards graded? I know a lot depends on condition of the individual card but would still like to know generally what you think.
2/ Since I have no presence on ebay and given the earlier thread on the subject it does make sense to go with a large ebay seller and pay a percentage. Can anyone give me an idea of what that precentage should be such as the 3% after fees suggted in the earlier thread? And can anyone suggest someone near or in Toronto?
Sorry I know this is a long post but I do appreciate any help you can provide.
Let me start by saying I am not a collector but recently inherited a collection. The collection is relatively small, about 3,000 cards and includes mostly baseball and hockey. Not knowing very much about the collection or collecting itself I started sorting through the cards to identify what was in it. I also started reading up on the hobby and I have learned the most by reading the different threads in this forum. However I still have a few questions and hope you guys can help. As interesting as going through the cards and learning about collecting has been I don't want to be a collector and simply want to get a fair price for the cards.
After logging about 2,000 of the cards I took a few of them to a small card show and a dealer just to get an idea of the best way to sell them. Now this is where my confusion sets in. In both cases, the show and at a dealer's store, the first thing they did was quickly flipped through the cards and dismissed them as not being very good but when I started gathering them up to leave and feeling a little sheepish about having shown them clearly unworthy cards they started to talk endlessly about the cards and what I was going to do with them. A couple of things they said raised questions in my mind.
First, I was told by the one at the show that eventhough they were't that great he would buy the lot off of me and that I shouldn't bother myself with sorting through them all. (Okay that set off some alarms, I may not be a collector but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday either) When I didn't jump at this idea he suggested that since he had a good presence on ebay with a lot of positive feedback he would sell my cards for me and charge 50%. (I think there might have been a sliding scale for the higher valued cards some where in the neighbourhood of 30%) When I asked about getting some of the higher valued cards graded he told me not to waste my money as experienced collectors would know the true value of the card without the grading and he could get me that price.
I got similar advice at the dealers who also suggested that I sell through him but he would only charge 20%. However he would only sell the higher vaued cards and not the common ones. He also suggested not getting them graded as I would run the risk of devaluing the card. I showed him the 1968 O-PEE-CHEE #177 Ryan card from the collection. (I have attached a scan of it - front and back) He said that it was likely a PSA 5 or at best a 6. He also said that becase it was OPC it was not as valuable as Topps. He basically made the americans collect baseball and they don't like the canadian cards argument. The best he said I would do for this card was about $200. He did offer me $250 cdn for the 20 cards I brought in which included a 1958 Clemente (#52) and 8 Willie Mays from the 50s, 60s and 70s. (5 topps and 3 OPC) So after my sad story I am left with these questions:
1/ Should I get the higher valued cards graded? I know a lot depends on condition of the individual card but would still like to know generally what you think.
2/ Since I have no presence on ebay and given the earlier thread on the subject it does make sense to go with a large ebay seller and pay a percentage. Can anyone give me an idea of what that precentage should be such as the 3% after fees suggted in the earlier thread? And can anyone suggest someone near or in Toronto?
Sorry I know this is a long post but I do appreciate any help you can provide.
0
Comments
I can say this though you would be better off having the Ryan, Mays etc graded. PSA would be your best bet. If your not a member an authorized dealer can submit them for you. If it was me Id list these cards myself on ebay. But then again I have the time and don't mind expending the effort. You did good by not just blowing them out real fast that I can assure you. More guys will be around soon to give you some more advice.
Good Luck
Steve
Since you said you are unfamiliar with what's good or not, I'd pick up a recent copy of Beckett which will give you an idea of which cards are worthwhile and which ones are not. What I would do next is take a completely unbiased look at the quality of the cards...how sharp are the corners? How well-centered are the cards? Are there any stains or marks on them? Are they creased at all? Overall, how good does the card look?
Being relatively new to the cards, you should have a pretty subjective eye...just don't let the hope of a higher price interfere with your self-evaluation of the cards.
As far as charging you 50% to ebay the cards, I'd say that's pretty cheesy....for a great deal less, you could list the cards yourself.
If you do decide to go that way, I would get the more expensive, rarer cards graded. Even if they come back at a 5 or so, you will have an absolute, unbiased opinion of a card that people respect. The rest, if there are a great deal of them, would probably be best off being sold as a lot on ebay. Maybe do 50 or 100 card lots, and sell them that way.
I think with the card lots on ebay, that will help to establish you there...get yourself some good feedback...then work onto the more expensive cards (if you get them graded, that will help tremendously).
As far as the Ryan goes, it's kind of hard to tell from the scan...expect a bit of work with this (as 3000 cards are still 3000 you need to go through).
I hope things work out for you...it sounds like you've done some homework, but have already ran into a couple shady dealers trying to work you over out of your cards.
I kindly walked away with the full understanding that sellers are not there to buy cards...but to sell them off at a large profit.
you will get hosed
There are some areas of the country that have not been exposed to alot of graded cards, in my area I can put a PSA 10 Bonds card next to the same card ungraded and get full BV for the ungraded cards and get fussed at for asking half of SMR for the graded one.
When I buy at shows and someone brings me a bunch of cards, if they do not seem to know what they want for them if I am interested I will offer a lower than normal price. Most of the time I look at the lot and figure out what the best 2 or 3 cards would easily sell for and base my offer for all of it on those cards.
Jim
That 1968 Ryan, for example - his rookie card. It's worth money in ANY grade, and any dealer looking to fleece you will say, oh, "It's not worth the trouble to get this card graded, and the O Pee Chee version is worthless compared to the Topps version."
I also agree that it makes no sense to consign your cards to another dealer just to list them on Ebay for you. One thing to bear in mind, however - many collectors are suspicious of a person with very little history, selling valuable vintage cards on Ebay all of a sudden. As mentioned earlier, you're better off pulling out the valuable cards and starting by selling small lots of commons on Ebay. You'll build up some selling history that way, and some feedback, and then you can bring out the big guns.
Another suggestion - many people on these forums may be interested in the cards you have. After you've submitted a bunch to PSA, I'd suggest that you list them in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum and see if you can get any bites that way. You may be able to unload a bunch for a decent price, without having to deal with the headaches of listing them on Ebay and paying the seller fees.
Good luck!
-Al
I cannot find this link all the links I have refer you to Ebays search for PSA cards.
What?
Everyone of us here is a worker of some kind and we don't work for free and in fact, will try to maximize our income, if possible. Dealers are entitled to the same benefit. And the fact that I or anyone once or more times got ripped off is irrelevent. Many dealers work on a closer margin than you may think.
I know many are thinking of the "stereotypical" jerk sitting behind the counter with not an ounce of social skills and an IQ that matches the teeth missing in his head but not all dealers fit that bill.
For one, e.g., have some dealing with Quality cards, aka Jay and you will be pleasantly surprised. These guys are very friendly. And to be fair, everyone here is trying to get their collection as reasonable as possible. If you win a card for 40% SMR - have you ever emailed the seller and told them the card went too cheap and I'm sending more money?
I am just trying to bring a little balance - turning a decent profit is not an obscene gesture.
your friend
Mike
And I have never had a "dealer" email me or follow me out into the parking lot to tell me I over paid for a card and offer me a rebate. Do your research, read the boards, ask questions, etc before you buy or sell your cards. Everyone is an independent contractor.
<< <i>"If you win a card for 40% SMR - have you ever emailed the seller and told them the card went too cheap and I'm sending more money?"
And I have never had a "dealer" email me or follow me out into the parking lot to tell me I over paid for a card and offer me a rebate. Do your research, read the boards, ask questions, etc before you buy or sell your cards. Everyone is an independent contractor. >>
Jayhawke
That is very true and insiteful but irrelevant to my point. The dealer is not compelled to do anything like that. My point is that not all dealers are crooks and while you are doing your homework, so are they.
Many times, there is almost condemnation when a dealer turns a profit. That is what they are in business to do and before ebay came along, we would be hard pressed to keep the hobby going on trades and Walmart. There used to be really good shops in the 80's - the explosion of cards in the 90's was the genesis of the jerk card dealer.
I can appreciate what you are saying - but my point had nothing to do with selling your collection, as such, but rather to bring to light the idea that we need the professional sellers as much as the occasional ebay seller. And that many are hard working, honest businessmen.
your friend
Mike
<< <i>I am just trying to bring a little balance - turning a decent profit is not an obscene gesture. >>
I see your point. Maybe i am sensitive to this subject because when i first started collecting as a kid...it was never about money. I didnt worry about that. I went to hobby shops...saw a nice man behind the counter...threw down 2-4 dollars for a pack of cards. I went back home happy. Back then, the hobby was pure...i naively viewed other people in the hobby as collectors. I never thought about reprints, trimmed cards and guys selling a large percentage over BV/SMR or whatever price one would use to place a monetary value on a card.
When i came back to the hobby and the first show i went to...i get dealers trying to buy my cards at a fraction of what i bought them for. It came to full view the idea that these guys are not collectors but are simply trying to make money. Maybe that childhood image i had was finally tainted. Reality simply set in. Perhaps it was the specific dealers i ran into that day...shady individuals who didnt look me in the eye. Maybe its the constant messages on this board warning us of the numerous and abundant scans on ebay. Maybe ive seen too much of the bad and not the good in such a short period of time. Youre right, though...there are reputable dealers out there who are simply trying to sell you the cards you want.
<< <i>That is what they are in business to do >>
that's what i realized...it wasnt a hobby to them, but a business.
That's all I was trying to say. I want to believe, if I were to start selling that I would want people to get a good product at a fair price. All this ebay stuff is changing the fabric of how we view dealers and card shows.
The profession dealer - has overhead, pays income tax, may have employees, liability insurance, and a host of miscellaneous expenses not to mention the cost of a table and travel/lodging costs.
This all starts to add up - so I ask the people here - what do you think they should offer in the way of a % of the SMR? Keeping in mind what I just said.
And, some of my friends will give you top dollar on something they can flip in 20 minutes. And that is a guarantee.
I apologize if I sound a bit combative or on a soap box. But we can't condemn the idea and pursue the same principle when it suits our endeavor.
your friend
Mike
<< <i>Thanks for the advice. I have a much better idea about what I am going to do and I'm going to give it a try on my own. I will certainly post the better cards here first once I get them graded and before putting them on ebay. Thanks again this is a great forum and more help to someone like me than you can imagine. >>
Darrin
I apologize for hijacking your thread. The grading of your cards by PSA, e.g., will maximize you ebay sales - and when you put them up, the Vintage forum is a great place to announce an ebay sale. You will find very friendly and willing people to bid on your items.
If I can ever be of any assistance please don't hesitate to pm or email me.
your friend
Mike
Of course dealers are in business to make money. Just like the people who fax me everyday about a hot stock tip or the cold calls I use to receive before I went on the no call list.
"The dealer is not compelled to do anything like that" that is why they ALL get a bad name because a few rip us off. I know there are good dealers out there. But when you approach them you have to be a little apprehensive.
There is an authorized PSA dealer who use to have a card shop in my area many years ago. Needless to say he did not have much integrity. He was looking to rip off the kids who would visit his store with $20, the uneducated card buyer and women. His wax boxes were usually stripped. I made that mistake a few times before I learned my lesson.
Once PSA came along, it leveled the playing field a bit for buyers.
That is the way I am if I can sell it right away I will pay more than I will for a card that I either need to send in to be graded and then may have to hold onto.
What Ebay has done though is allowed the small collector to compete with the big boys and be successful, but it has also and sadly lowered the prices of cards and raised the expectation that all card dealers sell with little or no overhead.
<< <i>You can get the cards graded without joining PSA, just go to the grading area of ebay and follow the links to PSA and you can download a submission form
What? >>
Did someone point out yet that you cannot do this? You have to be a PSA member to submit your cards, there is no other way (unless you give them to an authorized dealer to submit on your behalf). It is well worth it however to join on your own, as they give you back pretty much the whole membership fee in grading services, and SMR subscriptions.
Always beware of selling to a dealer without being informed. Without painting everyone in the same negative light, there are a lot of "Mr. Mint" types out there looking to buy from you at 5%-10% of value, hoping you'll never know. Do your homework, and deal with one of the hobby's good guys - a lot of us here can give you a recommendation.
<< <i>hey, i see your point. ive just had some bad experiences with dealers here in the bay area. The guy who offered me 400 for a stack of cards i spent well over 1200 for really annoyed me. And he said he was doing me a favor (not in those exact words). >>
No problem there - have been there. On the other side, Bill Goodwin took back 500$ worth of cards from me without as much as a question. And I have a dealer that I do business with took a card worth 1200 and gave me 1100$ because he told me he could walk it right over to a seller that minute - yes it was a favor but it freed up some dough I need for another purchase.
On the other hand, I have had many guys try to "steal" my stuff and made me feel like crap. I just walked.
Jayhawke put it very well: know what you are doing and they will have less of a chance to take advantage.
your friend
Mike
edit: mixed the byrd with the hawke sorry guys
I thought I had in my very first reply.
<< <i>Well, I am glad that you didn't let the obvious unscrupulous dealers take your cards, and getting unbiased opinions is always a good way to go.
Isn't saying unscrupulous and dealers a bit redundant?
<< <i>selling cards to a card dealer is like selling your car to a used car salesman
you will get hosed >>
Selling cards to a dealer is like giving food to a homeless man, then finding out he was really a millionaire.
<< <i>Stone not working for free is one thing, but when you tell someone their cards are worthless to suckker them, so you can sell them for 10 times more, you are a dealer true and true. >>
I can't agree more Isee
I can point out tons of examples of that kind of behavior - I stated in my original post - my point is to bring some balance to a sweeping feeling I was getting that most if not all dealers are crooks.
Some of the biggest dealers on ebay who are veteran sellers at shows, shops etc. would never dream of cheating anyone.
And if it were not for ebay - and I am not slamming ebay or complaining - being offered 50% for your stuff is pretty normal. Now, like I said, if the item is hot, and they can flip it immediately, expect to be offered more.
thanx
your friend
Mike
Welcome aboard. Could you throw a scan of the '58 Clemente on here in nice quality and let the guys tell you what they would pay for it ungraded. Then you will get an idea of what your cards can bring.
Your friend,
Bill
Maybe I'm just naive but I have had the best dealings with guys like Andy Medac, Steve Novella (formerly from Greg Manning), B&E aka Joe Esposito, Louis Bollman, Jay Wolt aka Quality, Stan Martucci, Mickey's, Mark Murphy aka BBCKid - just to name a few.
Again, I agree, there are tons of bad ones - but not all and also, I inferred from the tone that there was something wrong with these guys making a profit.
If I have wrongly inferred something, I am the first to apologize. I just believe in fairness and balance to a discussion.
And, BTW, this has been a good discussion.
thanx
your friend
Mike
And yes this is a good discussion. I like heated discussions where no one is calling the other guy names and talking about the issues at hand and trying to be as clear as possible with no misunderstandings. Message boards at their finest people!
As long as we are slammin - "Broadway Rick" - Strike Zone - long story short - I properly return a 55T J. Robinson card and he calls me on a saturday nite at 9pm and starts to chew on me - like a jerk I take it - he hangs up and I get mad - I call his work number back (befor caller ID) to leave a message - and he picks up - I begin to tell him how, I don't care how much money you have - you can't talk to me that way - the guy then apologizes and tells me he's been under a lot of stress lately! Like this is my problem?
In short the guy was a bit off that nite - and everyone knows the story behind his operation and shill bidding on ebay I believe.
your friend
Mike
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need more info let me know or you can listen to the guys that pointed out what little research they do before they post advice.
Jim
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need more info let me know or you can listen to the guys that pointed out what little research they do before they post advice.
Jim >>
Skig, isn't that about 99% of the Earth's population?
<< <i>need more info let me know or you can listen to the guys that pointed out what little research they do before they post advice. >>
Wow - that was an unnecessary comment. You found something that apparently PSA themselves hasn't made that well known - as most of us here (PSA members for the most part anyway) did not know this. It is not readily available information, and PSA made it pretty clear last year that you had to join the club to submit cards. That has been the long standing belief of most people here. I agree, you found something out that we did not know, but the majority of people here are knowledgeable collectors who will happily share advice and experience with the board. The advice posted here is generally on the money, but no one's perfect, not even you. I would venture to say you should lose the attitude.
Did someone point out yet that you cannot do this? You have to be a PSA member to submit your cards, there is no other way (unless you give them to an authorized dealer to submit on your behalf). It is well worth it however to join on your own, as they give you back pretty much the whole membership fee in grading services, and SMR subscriptions.
This is not the first time I have given this info to a non-collector on this forum looking to grade cards to sell(prob. why the ebay/PSA submission was set up) and was cancelled out by a furture post saying you cannot do this, you have to be a PSA member. Why not: hey if that info is correct that would be the way to go but as far as I know you need to be a PSA member. You did not even give my statement and info the smallest chance of being correct and you based it on what, your opinion. This is where the qualifier as far as I know belongs. I am a sorry the tone came off harsh but dismissing my post (and in relation me) as a uninformed/incorrect poster would have the same effect on you if you knew that your facts were correct.
Jim
As for this Psa/Ebay deal that has been around for 1/2 a year. 2 years ago when PSA stopped taking submissions unless you became a member it was pretty clear that the only way that you could get cards graded was be a member or submit through an authorized dealer. Ebay prolly getting sick of all the 3rd tier grading company's and all the problems that followed them went to PSA and struck a deal. Of course it wasn't mentioned on the site.
here's what I think:
1) Get the card graded
2) put on ebay
3) it looks like it will be graded a PSA 4 (if no creases)
4) the card will bring about $125.
I wouldn't mind having the card if is grades a four.
your friend,
Bill
Your friend,
Bill
<< <i>selling cards to a card dealer is like selling your car to a used car salesman
you will get hosed >>
I agree 100% with the general theme of this thread. It is safe to say that the average card dealer that sets up at shows is a snake and wouldn't think twice about ripping off an elderly widow if the opportunity presented itself.
Never sell cards to card dealers. You will get ripped off.
I've read every post on this thread, and you have summed it up best.
Those who sell to dealers without doing their homework are: impatient, uneducated to card values, or are not aware to the resources available to sell their cards.
ebay, PSA, GAI, SGC, etc. have been the only equalizer (savior) for collectors, investors, etc. Before ebay, PSA, GAI, SGC, etc. . . . collectors, investors, etc. were prey to these vultures. We now have an even playing field.
Bill
I agree. Sometimes collectors (inlcuding myself) are lazy and selling to a dealer may seem like the faster and easier way to get some cash. It takes time to scan the cards and to wait seven days or so for the ebay auction to end and then collect the money and ship the cards. But is it really that much trouble? By letting dealers do the very same thing for him, the collector is sure to shortchange himself.
You are 100 percent on the money when you say that ebay has proven time and time again that it is the great equalizer. On the sell side, no matter if you are just a novice card seller, buyers will pay you a fair price that is in line with fair market. On the buy side, all buyers can confidently buy a graded card without being gouged by dealers.
I have been in this hobby since I was very young and there is no greater time to be a collector. Ebay and PSA and other reputable grading companies have made it so easy to purchase cards and to sell the extras.
Power to the people!
Koby