Not a clue... but to me, it looks too good to be true... I think that something as valuable as that, and being sold in a public market, would probally be in a slab, if it was really that nice and problem free...
Thanks Mark, I couldn't put my finger on it, but it looked odd... and when you said that, I spotted it... I see the difference in color in the fields vs. around the stars...
There is a substantial difference in the bridge of the nose, the mouth and the shape of the eye not to mention the stars split between the two sides, not just a single row of stars.
I'm wondering if the high bidder has been told yet?
U.S. Air Force Security Forces Retired
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
This is the only 1818 I could find to compare it to--ex-Eliasberg The curls in her hair look really different. And a lot of other subtle things.....I have to go fake, don't really know, but was really fun looking for an answer.
<< <i>This is the only 1818 I could find to compare it to--ex-Eliasberg The curls in her hair look really different. And a lot of other subtle things.....I have to go fake, don't really know, but was really fun looking for an answer. >>
Actually, if this is Breen 2-B, the stars would be positioned a la 1813-1815; the other 1818 varieties have stars positioned more like the Eliasberg specimen.
Just noticed also that the plate coin on Coinfacts for the 1818 half eagle is Breen 2-B. Note the similarities.
While my quick check of the diagnostics doesn't scream fake I totally agree with ziggy29, I won't touch a raw coin like this on Ebay with a 10 foot pole.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Don't know too much about early gold. Having said that, it looks off. The date looks tampered with. The coin looks like a weaker strike in some key areas like the bust/neck area that leads me to belive that the coin is not real. If it is, then it has been cleaned/altered severly. The pcgs pop on that coin is: 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 Total 4 4 2 5 7 6 5 0 0 35
<< <i>I don't trust it a bit. Raw early gold on eBay? No way. Even if real, seriously messed with.
Having said that, it does look pretty much like Breen 2-B. >>
Bad Fake. The stars are not only too perfect looking, they're in the wrong locations beginning above the head and working to the right! Also, subtle detail lines are missing throughout the design.
Watch this animated gif transitioning between the fake and the real ex-Eliasburg someone posted above.
***oops, just read ziggy29's post about the coinfacts plate coin......looks just like the "fake".....Now I really don't know. I suppose the lesson is if you're going to collect early gold, read every reference book you can find and look at lots of ones you know are real****
"A happy person is not a person in a certain set of circumstances, but rather a person with a certain set of attitudes"--Hugh Downs
Folks, there are three varieties of 1818 Half Eagle, Breen 1-A, 2-B and 3-C. The stars on the subject coin are in the right position for being the 2-B variety. What might appear to be the reworking of the date is the byproduct of the punching process used during the early minting process and can be seen in Breen and Miller's book on Half Eagles.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I voted real for three reasons: 1) I don't know squat about gold 2) No one has shown a convincing arguement at least to me to the contrary 3) the coin is obviously rub a dubbed dub in a tub and shined up. If it were fake it would be easier to sell if this hadn't been done.
Based on my experience, I voted genuine, primarily because I have never seen a counterfeit 1818.
I am pretty sure that it has been played with, but, absent other similar coins, consider it genuine.
I am of the philosophy that everything is genuine until proven false.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Don't know if it's real or not, but definantly messed with. Probably got BB, since with all his other certified stuff you think this would be in a holder.
"Probably got BB, since with all his other certified stuff you think this would be in a holder."
Based on what I can see in the photograph I think it's a legit 1818. That said the coin has problems and I don't need to be a gold expert to know that. It's based in part on what Smitty said. There is almost no way this type of early gold coin gets sold on Ebay raw unless it's got major problems that would get it BB by any of the major services. The seller is either looking to unload it on the unsuspecting or someone that wants a type coin at a major discount and doesn't care that much about the harsh cleaning.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
If someone has a book on gold coins look and see if there are any varieties with a late die state as this piece has a die crack running from star 6 all the way thru the portrait the second 8 to the rim. Probably not to many more pieces were srtuck with this die since it was breaking in half.
Who knows if it's real based on a scan from an unknown seller on ebay which I realize is one of the most credible sources in which to buy and sell rare coins, but I mean cmon already. Are you kidding?
There is no way I would take a shot at buying this coin for any price. No chance.
I voted genuine. The pieces matches up with Breen's 2-B variety which is also the variety of the coin that is plated in Akers Half Eagle book.
Having said that the coin's surfaces have been altered to such an extent that it would never get into a PCGS or NGC holder.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Despite the fact that I would love to own an example of this type, I would not bid on this on a bet.
I'd sooner have NO COIN than a screwed-up, scrubbed-up, polished-up old coin that looks like it was minted yesterday afternoon.
This also goes for the classic gold coins that are in PCGS and NGC slabs, which have had their "skins" removed.
Here's my idea of a nice looking early gold coin. She's not shiny, but at least she's real in more ways than one. She currently lives in a PCGS AU-55 holder.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I've often wondered how to even comment on these kind of things on a message board, especially when the vast majority of people couldn't tell an original from a fake, original un-molested piece from a doctored coin UP CLOSE , not to mention a scanned, photoshopped piece of who knows what on "ebay" from an unknown.
So most of the time I try and limit myself to being a spectator.
But then again this was thousands of dollars. Somebody presumably bought it.
They sure did "buy it" didn't they.
As they say in the car business, there's an ass for every seat.
Based on feedbacks on ebay, the fact that its raw and "uncirculated" leads me to believe something is not quite right. I wouldn't buy raw gold on ebay...ever.
Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
Thanks for your responses. I voted "real" and think it is a genuine 2-B. I think the condition is AU details, cleaned, net VF or so. I do not see evidence of holed/plugged, but it could certainly be repaired (expertly done, if so) If it is genuine, it is a coin I would not mind owning. (I do not have the type yet) Of course I would prefer a problem free, certified coin, but do not "hate" the appearance of this coin.
Now, that said, no way in he11 would I take a chance of spending that kind of money on a raw "I think it's real" deal on eBay. If that coin had been in an ANACS slab with an appropriate net grade, then maybe.
take a look to the field area right of the denom (5 D.). it's a different color/texture than the rest of the field. so the next place to look would be the corresponding obv. area, which is at 12:00. HMMM...., just COINCIDENTALLY, that is PRECISELY where some bright light is shining, so the digipic has no detail even remotely visible in that exact area for us to examine.
then, the rest of the coin is obviously been burnished, hence my conclusion that it's a h&p job.
Probably genuine, but I would not buy early gold on ebay. If the diagnostics match a known variety as others have said, it is probably genuine if not cast, which it does not appear to be. Transfer dies could be another possibility, but unlikely. The fact that the strike, stars, hair curls are different than Eliasberg does not mean it is fake, as all early coins have different strikes depending on the die marriage, or even die state. The stars are hand punched, dentils hand engraved on the working die. Liberty's portrait is hubbed, but it is known that hair details are enhanced in different ways for each obverse working die. Master dies are also known to have been reworked or replaced midyear on some early coins, such as 1805 and 1825 halves.
Bill
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Comments
42/92
<< <i>Very harshly cleaned, even if genuine. >>
Thanks Mark, I couldn't put my finger on it, but it looked odd... and when you said that, I spotted it... I see the difference in color in the fields vs. around the stars...
42/92
David
Edited to say after areal one posted, it is fake, and the 5 D is not in the right place.
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>here is what a real one of that design should look like
You can't use an 1811 to compare with an 1818. The design changed (to just the head, without the bust) in 1813.
It looks real, but likely is harshly cleaned, hence no slab.
Having said that, it does look pretty much like Breen 2-B.
<< <i>This is the only 1818 I could find to compare it to--ex-Eliasberg The curls in her hair look really different. And a lot of other subtle things.....I have to go fake, don't really know, but was really fun looking for an answer. >>
Actually, if this is Breen 2-B, the stars would be positioned a la 1813-1815; the other 1818 varieties have stars positioned more like the Eliasberg specimen.
Just noticed also that the plate coin on Coinfacts for the 1818 half eagle is Breen 2-B. Note the similarities.
55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 Total
4 4 2 5 7 6 5 0 0 35
<< <i>I don't trust it a bit. Raw early gold on eBay? No way. Even if real, seriously messed with.
Having said that, it does look pretty much like Breen 2-B. >>
I think this sums up my opinion!
Zach
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
Also, subtle detail lines are missing throughout the design.
Watch this animated gif transitioning between the fake and the real ex-Eliasburg someone posted above.
***oops, just read ziggy29's post about the coinfacts plate coin......looks just like the "fake".....Now I really don't know. I suppose the lesson is if you're going to collect early gold, read every reference book you can find and look at lots of ones you know are real****
michael
The "5D" is too close and the "states of" is also too close
Both of these examples are seperate. Its one or the other , not both on one coin.
Hope Imma right!
PASS!!!
K S
I am pretty sure that it has been played with, but, absent other similar coins, consider it genuine.
I am of the philosophy that everything is genuine until proven false.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Noticed the same thing but it looks like the die crack is UNDER the date...that's pretty wierd. Definitely cleaned, probably altered.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
2-B or not 2-B?
Probably got BB, since with all his other certified stuff you
think this would be in a holder.
Smitty
"Probably got BB, since with all his other certified stuff you think this would be in a holder."
Based on what I can see in the photograph I think it's a legit 1818. That said the coin has problems and I don't need to be a gold expert to know that. It's based in part on what Smitty said. There is almost no way this type of early gold coin gets sold on Ebay raw unless it's got major problems that would get it BB by any of the major services. The seller is either looking to unload it on the unsuspecting or someone that wants a type coin at a major discount and doesn't care that much about the harsh cleaning.
There is no way I would take a shot at buying this coin for any price. No chance.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Having said that the coin's surfaces have been altered to such an extent that it would never get into a PCGS or NGC holder.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I'd sooner have NO COIN than a screwed-up, scrubbed-up, polished-up old coin that looks like it was minted yesterday afternoon.
This also goes for the classic gold coins that are in PCGS and NGC slabs, which have had their "skins" removed.
Here's my idea of a nice looking early gold coin. She's not shiny, but at least she's real in more ways than one. She currently lives in a PCGS AU-55 holder.
I've often wondered how to even comment on these kind of things on a message board, especially when the vast majority of people couldn't tell an original from a fake, original un-molested piece from a doctored coin UP CLOSE , not to mention a scanned, photoshopped piece of who knows what on "ebay" from an unknown.
So most of the time I try and limit myself to being a spectator.
But then again this was thousands of dollars. Somebody presumably bought it.
They sure did "buy it" didn't they.
As they say in the car business, there's an ass for every seat.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
Now, that said, no way in he11 would I take a chance of spending that kind of money on a raw "I think it's real" deal on eBay. If that coin had been in an ANACS slab with an appropriate net grade, then maybe.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
then, the rest of the coin is obviously been burnished, hence my conclusion that it's a h&p job.
K S
Bill
al h.