Opinions on this 1882cc Morgan.........please

ibzman350

What would you grade the coin ???


What is going on above the ear ????









Herb

Steve27

Loks like a 63 (very weak strike). The area above the ear looks weird because of the weak strike (the hair is flat), it's part of a large scrape, and ugly toning is now forming there.

ms70

63.

razorface1027

Nice piece! High 64? The ear looks like it's been rubbed. I had a 97-O in 63 that had similar rubs...copper in color.

dan1ecu

I owned an 82-CC (PCGS MS65 DMPL) that had exactly the same thing. I agree with Steve that it's a result of a weak strike. It might be normal for an 82-CC to be weakly struck, I don't know. It didn't preclude the MS65 grade in PCGS's opinion.

Dan

BigGreek

I believe these come weakly struck. Looks MS-65 to me.

SmallSizedGuy

The parallel lines on the chin, cheek, and above the ear are "roller marks" from the rollers that roll out the strip before the blanks are cut. Typically, there is enough pressure during the minting process to press out these marks. This coin is weakly struck and did not remove these marks.

kieferscoins

MS-64.

Cameron Kiefer

ibzman350

SmallSizedGuy, hey thanx for the input, that will be my Morgan lesson for the day.


Cameron, if you are to win the grading contest you better tighten-up










BTW; I like the heavy die clashing


Herb

kieferscoins

<< <i>SmallSizedGuy, hey thanx for the input, that will be my Morgan lesson for the day.


Cameron, if you are to win the grading contest you better tighten-up >>



You mean loosen up with my grading? if I tighten up that mean I would have to give it a MS-63.

Cameron Kiefer

BAJJERFAN

Those could also be "adjustment" marks too I believe.

Newmismatist

<< <i>The parallel lines on the chin, cheek, and above the ear are "roller marks" from the rollers that roll out the strip before the blanks are cut. Typically, there is enough pressure during the minting process to press out these marks. This coin is weakly struck and did not remove these marks. >>



Dead on! You actually see this a lot on the CC dollars if you look carefully - may be from not enough striking pressure OR it could be improper die alignment (the dies set just a hair too far apart) and no matter how much striking pressure they won't fully strike up because the "Hammer" die doesn't go far enough down on the "striking" stroke when the press triggers. IF you happen to collect patterns, you'll note what's called "die trial strikings" - those are what the press set-up man uses to set the proper die alignment when they're getting ready for a production run - copper planchets were often used for setting up the die alignment for the gold and silver coinage - the ones saved were probably the final set up ones delivered to the superintendent to review before the press runs - the intervening set up pieces (the 2, 3 or 4 pieces that were "off") were probably thrown into the "scrap bin" when done. In any event this is more common than people realize and many CCs are downgraded a point because it appears that there are lite scratches or even "hairlines" on the highest parts of the coin - close examination will reveal that these are in fact "roller marks". The key is that they are parallel lines only on the highest parts of the devices and the incuse lines are slightly "rounded".

mgoodm3

Interesting info. Nice looking coin.

BAJJERFAN

I have seen these on "O" mint Morgans too. The post 1900 "S" mint Morgans and especially the 02-S are noted for a bad case of the roller marks.

Newmismatist

<< <i>Those could also be "adjustment" marks too I believe. >>



I think they quit making "adjustments" to silver planchets after they went to the Steam presses (late 1830's early 1840's) Overweight planchets were simply thrown into the "recycle bin" for resmelting. The Morgan silver dollar minting process were essentially hi-speed production runs and and individually filing off a bit of silver was no longer cost effect - particularly with the tremendous quantities of silver available from the "Comstock lode". In the late 1790's and early 1800's silver was scarce at the mint (they actually would melt spanish silver coins to get the silver bullion to make the planchets) and the mint did not have the "luxury" of simply resmelting the silver to make new planchets as they did after the civil war, so an overweight planchet was filed down to get the correct weight and only the silver filings were recycled to make new planchets. The early silver dollars were struck in the thousands, whereas the Morgans were struck in the Millions. Hand filing planchets was no longer feasible for the needs of the huge quantities of Morgan Silver dollars that were struck. (This from memory on what I've read about the Minting of Morgans after the Bland-Allison Act - it could be incorrect as I haven't pulled out my reference books to check this.)

ibzman350

Wow !!! Great info.

I looked at my raw 82cc and it too has the same marks, different direction.









Herb

coinfreak499

I like it

nesvt

That was great info about the roller marks. I have a few coins with similar marks.

The coin looks very nice. I like the heavy clashing. Is that a VAM-3 or is the clashing heavy enough to have transferred something from the opposing die?

ibzman350

nesvt, I don't know about the VAM 3.

The right c looks low but I can't see any doubling on the date.



Herb

Sphinx357

interesting

morgannut2

Good info above. There are two types of marks common on CC Morgans. The roller marks discussed and more rarely, die polishing marks. The polish marks are more typically found in the fields and occur mostly on prooflike examples. The lines are raised, as opposed to harsh cleaning marks that are cut into the surface. Although poorly stuck mid-80's CC's are found, they are more commonly fully struck with excellant luster. Generally a weak stike may lower the grade by one point. Hence, an otherwise MS-66+ example will have it's grade lowered to MS-65 due to strike, but PCGS is not as extreem in their grading of strike on CC's as say they are on an 1880-O, where a gem grade is nearly unobtainable due to strike.

SmallSizedGuy

I once owned a beautiful 1892-O Morgan that was an easy MS-65 (well struck and very nice luster), but had noticeable "roller marks" across the cheek. Had it graded by PCGS and came back as a 64. Sold the coin to a dealer who was going to try again to get it graded as a 65, but to me this is an example where the roller marks cost one point from the grade

BAJJERFAN

Here is one of those infamous 02-S coins with roller marks that kept it out of a 65 holder. They weren't real visible to the unaided eye [at least not mine] but they sho do show up fine N dandy with a camera or a loupe.

JRocco

Great thread- Here is an 82CC in a 64 rattler holder, another weak strike.

K6AZ

<< <i>Here is one of those infamous 02-S coins with roller marks that kept it out of a 65 holder. They weren't real visible to the unaided eye [at least not mine] but they sho do show up fine N dandy with a camera or a loupe.
>>



A larger image of the reverse.