Examining Indian Cents (including '77, '08S, '09S) - Need advice

Prethen

This weekend I'm going to be looking at purchasing a number of raw Indian Cents and I must admit that I don't have a lot of knowledge in the area of avoiding counterfeits or "problem" copper (I mainly deal with nickel and silver).

The 1877 (I've been told) is in pretty worn shape. I know to look for uniform "7's", angular bottoms of the "7's", and a soft center strike ("N" and "E") of the reverse. On a coin that's pretty worn, what are the chances that it's a counterfeit? What other tell-tale signs might I look for (especially on a heavily worn coin)? I think the CDN for Good is about $240; what's a fair price for About Good, Fair, or Poor?

Other than a clear "s", what am I looking for to make sure the "S" minted coins are not counterfeit. I realize that the spark-erosion dies will create a "bubbling-effect" on the coin in some cases, but are there obvious points to look for?

I wish I had my (dopey) father's Indian cent collection (which I moronically gave him) because he cleaned all the them to make them look nice! Since he's a 1000 miles away (and besides, if he was any closer when he told me that, I'd be in jail today ), I don't have the opportunity to see what a bunch of various cleaned Indian cents might look like. I don't have any "spare" Indian cents to experiment with. What should I look for that might be unnatural for these coins, that is a sign it has been cleaned (of course, it shouldn't look "coppery")?

Any other advice when examine these coins as a whole?

Thanks! If I purchase them, I'll try to be sure to provide scans on this forum.

ccrdragon

The 1877 will go for up to $200 in AG or worse shape (I saw one that was corroded, bent, scratched, etc go for $150 on ebay!).

I don't know of too many 1877's that have been counterfitted at the grades that you are discussing, but it is possible since they always bring out good money. The details that you list should be enough to tell, if the coin is in good enough shape to read the diagnostics.

On the 'S' mint coins, look for regular placement of the mint-mark. You can see good examples of these at Eagle Eye. This is probably one of the best sights on the net to find discssions of Indian Cents. Also, on the cleaning, look for uniform color - should be brown or golden brown and definitely not PINK (a sure-fire way to tell that the coin has been cleaned). Also, look around the devices and see if the fields look cleaner than the devices or if there is a halo effect around the lettering. This is also a good indication that the coin has been cleaned.




(edited for spelling)

Merc

On the 1877, the 7's are not alike. The bases are different. The first 7 has a small flat side on the bottom right tip of the 7. The second 7 has a normal rounded base.

Go out and buy the PCGS grading book. It has nice large pictures of these coins, plus it has color pictures of circulated grades. That will show you what natural circulated color looks like.

Prethen

I happen to have the PCGS grading book and I really like it. Thanks for suggestion to take another look at it for color though.

Prethen

When grading Indian Cents, are there grading subtleties that the grading books don't point out? For instance, are there certain years that need to take in a generally weaker strike, especially when looking at the "Liberty". I'm going to use the PCGS book as my main guide for grading them.

mr1931S

Price to you should be no more than 50-60% of retail for these. The 1877 in excessively worn condition? Worth no more than $100 or so. Except for the easily made but easily detectible castings, 1877 is not really worth it to make for just a hundred bucks or so. Sounds like you know what to look for on these so it's unlikely you'll get stuck with a fake.

1908 S and 1909 S look at the style of "S." The "S" used on these is distinctly different than "S" used on any Lincoln cent. If "S" looks good on the 1909 S check its edge for evidence of a seam. Not saying it is impossible for there not to be 1908 S fakes out there but if a forger is going to go to the trouble to make a fake "S" mint IC why not make a 1909 S instead?

Good luck!