VAM's - VAM's! - VAM's? - General Questions
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<Imagine everyone's favorite Hogan's Heroes villain> "I Know Nuthin'!"
I have to admit, I'm a total dummy when it comes to VAM's. I'm tempted to buy the main VAM book for the heck of it. I have a few questions more or less, please help! Most dealers I talk to don't deal with VAM's at all; they're not in their inventory as such and they don't look for them. The dealers I speak of are not "fly-by-night" guys but dealers that would rather focus their business time doing other things. I guess I want to find out if the pursuit of VAMs is something for me. It seems to be fairly time consuming and I'm unsure of the profit potential.
As a Collector
1. How prevalent are VAM's amongst a typical unsearched collection/hoard of Morgan/Peace dollars? Is it likely amongst 100 coins to find at least 1 VAM?
2. In general, if a VAM isn't a part of the top 100, is it really worth any serious premium? Even in lower grades?
3. Where can one get the wholesale/retail values of the various VAM's?
4. How hard is it to find a VAM? Typically, are they found via the naked eye or usually do you need power? What's the maximum power needed by any VAM? For the average VAM, that needs power, what power is needed?
5. I noticed that one of the top 100 VAM's needs to have the reeded edge examined...how does one do that? Is it worth it? What type of premium does an odd-reeded edge coin bring and is it relatively obvious to spot?
6. Should I purchase the "Morgan and Peace Dollars" book by Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis, 4th edition?
7. Is it necessary to purchase the Top 100 VAM book or is the web site located at Top 100 VAMs good enough?
As a Dealer
1. What percentage of dealers know anything about VAM's, enough to designate them and appropriately price them?
2. In general, do you feel it's worth the dealer's time to search through his stock for VAM's (I know this seems like a loaded question, but if the reality is that finding one is so rare that it becomes "expensive" to search, it may not be worth it).?
3. How do you properly set a price for a VAM?
4. I apologize if this seems like a sensitive question to some, but it seems like the VAM search has been a relatively recent phenomenon; is this a fad or does it "have legs"?
5. Is there a type of VAM that's easier to "move" (trade) than others? In other words, if a VAM is too "subtle", is it tough to sell?
6. How does a VAM end up in the top 100?
7. What grading services properly attribute VAM's? When is it appropriate to submit the coin to a service?
Anything I forgot that I should know?
Thanks for any help and guidance in this area. I know there's a ton of knowledge on this board and I'd like to tap just a tiny bit of it!
I have to admit, I'm a total dummy when it comes to VAM's. I'm tempted to buy the main VAM book for the heck of it. I have a few questions more or less, please help! Most dealers I talk to don't deal with VAM's at all; they're not in their inventory as such and they don't look for them. The dealers I speak of are not "fly-by-night" guys but dealers that would rather focus their business time doing other things. I guess I want to find out if the pursuit of VAMs is something for me. It seems to be fairly time consuming and I'm unsure of the profit potential.
As a Collector
1. How prevalent are VAM's amongst a typical unsearched collection/hoard of Morgan/Peace dollars? Is it likely amongst 100 coins to find at least 1 VAM?
2. In general, if a VAM isn't a part of the top 100, is it really worth any serious premium? Even in lower grades?
3. Where can one get the wholesale/retail values of the various VAM's?
4. How hard is it to find a VAM? Typically, are they found via the naked eye or usually do you need power? What's the maximum power needed by any VAM? For the average VAM, that needs power, what power is needed?
5. I noticed that one of the top 100 VAM's needs to have the reeded edge examined...how does one do that? Is it worth it? What type of premium does an odd-reeded edge coin bring and is it relatively obvious to spot?
6. Should I purchase the "Morgan and Peace Dollars" book by Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis, 4th edition?
7. Is it necessary to purchase the Top 100 VAM book or is the web site located at Top 100 VAMs good enough?
As a Dealer
1. What percentage of dealers know anything about VAM's, enough to designate them and appropriately price them?
2. In general, do you feel it's worth the dealer's time to search through his stock for VAM's (I know this seems like a loaded question, but if the reality is that finding one is so rare that it becomes "expensive" to search, it may not be worth it).?
3. How do you properly set a price for a VAM?
4. I apologize if this seems like a sensitive question to some, but it seems like the VAM search has been a relatively recent phenomenon; is this a fad or does it "have legs"?
5. Is there a type of VAM that's easier to "move" (trade) than others? In other words, if a VAM is too "subtle", is it tough to sell?
6. How does a VAM end up in the top 100?
7. What grading services properly attribute VAM's? When is it appropriate to submit the coin to a service?
Anything I forgot that I should know?
Thanks for any help and guidance in this area. I know there's a ton of knowledge on this board and I'd like to tap just a tiny bit of it!
0
Comments
<< <i>2. In general, if a VAM isn't a part of the top 100, is it really worth any serious premium? Even in lower grades? >>
If it isn`t a true Hot 50 or Top 100 VAM, then no premium is applied. The picture I posted is a VAM 5 ( The " R " in " In God We Trust " looks more like an " I " then a " R " ) is neither a Hot 50 or Top 100 VAM but, paid a slight premium only because of the toning. IMHO, it can be a neat find whether it`s Hot 50 or Top 100 VAM or not if it hits you right.
<< <i>4. How hard is it to find a VAM? Typically, are they found via the naked eye or usually do you need power? What's the maximum power needed by any VAM? For the average VAM, that needs power, what power is needed? >>
Not always. Below is a VAM 3 and part of the Top 50 Peace Dollars . The close up is where the " Re-cut ray runs thru 1st `L` in DOLLAR " is at. Even without an aid or close up, it is fairly easy to spot. Some VAMS are even more obvious while others are not. With the rest of the questions, I`ll let some of the more experienced/seasoned VAM`ers to answer.
I do not think many folks collect VAM for the financial benefit; for me it is the thrill of the hunt and pleasure in picking up a couple of 1882 O/S as I did last Saturday.
I know about 8 or 9 coin dealers, only one who actually checks his coins for VAMs and that is because he loves silver dollars, not because he wants to make the premium. I guess one VAM in 100 coins would be a pretty decent ratio.
Dr. Michael Fey puts out a quarterly market update on Top 100 VAMs; get his and Jeff Oxman's book along with the VAM book. Subscribe to Dr. Fey's quarterly newsletter and you will get current prices on Top 100. http://www.rcicoins.com is his address.
The folks at Ashmore, along with the SSDC and Leroy Van Allen post updates at www.ashmore.com
Good luck and welcome to the hobby.
Rick
<< <i>1. How prevalent are VAM's amongst a typical unsearched collection/hoard of Morgan/Peace dollars? Is it likely amongst 100 coins to find at least 1 VAM? >>
An earlier post today only found 7 Top 100 VAMs in a mini-hoard of 500. So that's roughly 1 per hundred but your mileage may vary.
<< <i>2. In general, if a VAM isn't a part of the top 100, is it really worth any serious premium? Even in lower grades? >>
Yes & no. A few real toughies of the Top 100 & Hot 50 carry a serious premium, most carry a modest premium and some carry little or no premium. One's that come to mind with a serious premium are some of the clashed E varieties, micro O & S mint marks and those with serious die breaks or doubling.
<< <i>3. Where can one get the wholesale/retail values of the various VAM's? >>
Dr Fey's quarterly newsletter posts current, up to date Top 100 prices at auction. Dr Fey has generally paid 30% back of these prices when buying, or at least he's made that offer in his newsletter. I'm not sure of any other sources.
<< <i>4. How hard is it to find a VAM? Typically, are they found via the naked eye or usually do you need power? What's the maximum power needed by any VAM? For the average VAM, that needs power, what power is needed? >>
Some VAMs are easily recognizeable if you know what to look for. Others can only be found under close examination. Any 10x - 16x loupe should suffice when attributing them.
<< <i>5. I noticed that one of the top 100 VAM's needs to have the reeded edge examined...how does one do that? Is it worth it? What type of premium does an odd-reeded edge coin bring and is it relatively obvious to spot? >>
Reed counts can be another means to validate an attribution for those VAMs that seem to lack many tell-tale markers. Infrequent reeding and overlapped reeding pays a small to modest premium. Counting reeds isn't easy and can be frustrating at times (I've tried). If you think you have a new VAM or are unsure of attribution, a reed count can help, otherwise. . . I use a microscope for this.
<< <i>6. Should I purchase the "Morgan and Peace Dollars" book by Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis, 4th edition? >>
I would say yes to buying it even though the VAM lists are somewhat out of date. There is other extremely useful information about Morgans in generally that will help you understand VAMs. Plus, updates are available to purchase from Leroy Van Allen that should bring you get everything up to date quickly.
<< <i>7. Is it necessary to purchase the Top 100 VAM book or is the web site located at Top 100 VAMs good enough? >>
Buy the book, that web site is just a copy of Jeff Oxman's VAMLink web site which is also out of date. The book will give you the markers to look for when searching for VAMs.
Semper ubi sub ubi
Also I recommend you buy one of the QE3 microscopes to help you look for them. It's around $50 but an amazing aid to see the coin up close and personal....and check out the pictures it takes...found this 1885-O bar ear VAM 10 tonight---
<< <i>1. What percentage of dealers know anything about VAM's, enough to designate them and appropriately price them? >>
At shows, very few (10%-20%) know anything significant about VAMs (in my experience). They generally know about the expensive and popular ones or those found in the Redbook. They definitely do like to over price them. And they don't like it when you tell them their attribution is incorrect.
<< <i>2. In general, do you feel it's worth the dealer's time to search through his stock for VAM's (I know this seems like a loaded question, but if the reality is that finding one is so rare that it becomes "expensive" to search, it may not be worth it).? >>
ALWAYS SEARCH!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>3. How do you properly set a price for a VAM? >>
Use Dr Fey's price guide. Research auction archives or watch what they sell for on eBay.
<< <i>4. I apologize if this seems like a sensitive question to some, but it seems like the VAM search has been a relatively recent phenomenon; is this a fad or does it "have legs"? >>
My understanding is it started to take off with the release of the Top 100 guide. ANACS has graded VAMS for a long time. NGC grades Top 100 & Hot 50 and PCGS is gearing up to join the crowd. QD Bower's recent book on Morgan dollars provides VAM information. In the few years I've hunted them, I've watched prices creep up every year as demand for them increase.
<< <i>5. Is there a type of VAM that's easier to "move" (trade) than others? In other words, if a VAM is too "subtle", is it tough to sell? >>
Most anything 1878, those with extreme doubling, large die breaks, micro mint marks, clashed E and those with other heavy/unusual clashing.
<< <i>6. How does a VAM end up in the top 100? >>
These were the decision of Dr Fey & Jeff Oxman. I don't agree with all of them in terms of rarity but this is the list and we have to live with it.
<< <i>7. What grading services properly attribute VAM's? When is it appropriate to submit the coin to a service? >>
ANACS will grade any in the VAM book or if you supply the documentation. NGC does Top 100 & Hot 50 (and maybe others, I don't know). PCGS does a few right now with plans to do more in the future. ICG does anything in the Redbook. SEGS will do most any VAM. There are others but I'll leave it at this list. Whether you get it slabbed is personal preference, although with some the premium is so small, it may not cover your slabbing costs. It would be cheaper to buy the already slabbed or hunt them and attribute them yourself. The big premium coins would definitely be worth getting slabbed should you plan on the selling them.
<< <i>7. What grading services properly attribute VAM's? When is it appropriate to submit the coin to a service? >>
Most of the ones I mentioned do well attributing VAMs but they all have their off days. That's why it's important for you to know what VAM it is before you submit, it lessens the chance of their mistake.
These are my opinions and others may vary.
I hope this helps.
Jeff
Semper ubi sub ubi
Rick
As a Collector
1. How prevalent are VAM's amongst a typical unsearched collection/hoard of Morgan/Peace dollars? Is it likely amongst 100 coins to find at least 1 VAM?
A VAM is nothing more than a die marriage. All Morgans have a VAM number, unless you discover a new die marriage, which happens somewhat regularly. Again, a VAM number merely identifies the die marriage for the obverse and reverse of a Morgan dollar.
2. In general, if a VAM isn't a part of the top 100, is it really worth any serious premium? Even in lower grades?
Personally, I wouldn't pay a premium for a top 100, or any other VAM. I think this part of the market has been over hyped by a few dealers. Buy many here will disagree with me on that point.
3. Where can one get the wholesale/retail values of the various VAM's?
Dr. Fey publishes a price guide. I used to subscribe but I got tired of reading about the HOT, HOT, HOT VAM market. Too much HYPE, HYPE for me.
4. How hard is it to find a VAM? Typically, are they found via the naked eye or usually do you need power? What's the maximum power needed by any VAM? For the average VAM, that needs power, what power is needed?
I use a 10X and 20X loupe. Again, in my opinion, anything more powerful is not worth the effort. Many use microscopes. God bless 'em.
5. I noticed that one of the top 100 VAM's needs to have the reeded edge examined...how does one do that? Is it worth it? What type of premium does an odd-reeded edge coin bring and is it relatively obvious to spot?
If you want to counts reeds, then you're a real VAM fanatic. It's about as geeky as you can get. I've heard that some use playdough and roll the coin.
6. Should I purchase the "Morgan and Peace Dollars" book by Leroy Van Allen and George Mallis, 4th edition?
Yes. The chapters on coin manufacturing in the 19th century is alone worth the price. It is a classic.
7. Is it necessary to purchase the Top 100 VAM book or is the web site located at Top 100 VAMs good enough?
The Top 100 is an excellent little book. But it's only 2 authors opinions on the most desirable VAM's. Many agree with them and therefore the Top 100 has gained market acceptance.
As a Dealer
1. What percentage of dealers know anything about VAM's, enough to designate them and appropriately price them?
My guess is less than 1%. Most dealers could care less. My dealer doesn't care. It's not cost effective for him to attribute buckets full of Morgans for the small chance that a VAM collector will walk in his shop.
2. In general, do you feel it's worth the dealer's time to search through his stock for VAM's (I know this seems like a loaded question, but if the reality is that finding one is so rare that it becomes "expensive" to search, it may not be worth it).?
I'm not a dealer, but I wouldn't do it. Unless I could attribute them in less than 20 seconds per coin, which is a signficant skill to achieve. I wouldn't bother.
3. How do you properly set a price for a VAM?
Like anything else, supply vs. demand. The demand has generally been determined by the Top 100 book. My opinion is that there's somewhat of an artificial demand being built up by some dealers. But if collectors what to pay the premiums, good for them. I won't.
4. I apologize if this seems like a sensitive question to some, but it seems like the VAM search has been a relatively recent phenomenon; is this a fad or does it "have legs"?
This is the big question. It's a relatively new aspect to Morgan collecting. The third edition of the Top 100 book was published in 1997. Van Allen's book was originally published in 1971. But the
Top 100 book created the most interest in VAM collecting. Personally I think the jury is still out on whether it is a sustainable part of the hobby. The dealer hype has me concerned. Dealers have buckets full of Morgans and some dealers are trying a relatively new method of marketing them. Maybe I'm wrong, but paying a big premium for a common date Morgan that been attributed a desirable VAM number is a risky purchase.
5. Is there a type of VAM that's easier to "move" (trade) than others? In other words, if a VAM is too "subtle", is it tough to sell?
All depends on the rarity factor and grade. And inclusion in the Top 100 is a big bonus.
6. How does a VAM end up in the top 100?
You'll have to ask Dr. Fey and Jeff Oxman (the authors) that question. I don't believe it's necessarily related to rarity factor. My guess is eye appeal of the die and ease of attribution. If it takes a microscope to attribute, then it will likely never be a popular die marriage.
7. What grading services properly attribute VAM's? When is it appropriate to submit the coin to a service?
ANACS is the most thorough, although there's talk that PCGS will begin attributing all Morgans, not just the Top 100. If you really want to learn, then attribute them yourself and submit to ANACS for confirmation.
Hope that helps.
If I understand what most of you are saying is that it takes time to attribute the coins and only rarely will one really be worth any premium. Perhaps I should concentrate on learning how to identify some of the more obvious VAM's and let the microscopic stuff be a treasure trove for another.
Thanks again!
Personally, I wouldn't pay a premium for a top 100, or any other VAM. I think this part of the market has been over hyped by a few dealers. Buy many here will disagree with me on that point.
VAMs aren't for everyone. But, collectors purchase vams at vam prices and have driven prices where they are, not dealers.
My opinion is that there's somewhat of an artificial demand being built up by some dealers
I can't see that. Many Top 100 vams have a known population count of less than 100 coins. For example, the Donkey Tail
population is 72 or 73 coins known. Between the hoarding (I have two, used to have three) by collectors, and the guys who
still don't have one, but want one, the demand is there. When I sold one on eBay, I got several lower offers by email
before somebody finally sniped the coin for $550 at the last minute.
Another example is the 1879-O, Triple O, VAM-28. Population is ten coins known. Collectors have looked for the VAM-28
for years. The coins just aren't there given the demand. So, if you want one, you have to pay for it. Not surprising
an AU58 example sold for $1,000 in the last six months.
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Thanks for the feedback. My only concern is the VAM market is still in its early stages and my advice to collectors is to be careful when paying significant premiums for common date Morgans. Also I must admit I quickly got tired of the HOT, HOT, HOT VAM newsletters from dealers that I was receiving.
I honestly hope I'm wrong and the collector demand for Morgan varieties continues over the long term. But remember this whole market originated with the Top 100 book. The Van Allen book is a classic, but the Top 100 book is just 2 authors opinions.
To be a dealer in esoteric die varieties, you have to build a clientele, and I’m not in a position to do that. Oh sure I’ve got brains enough to spot the over mint mark varieties and the overdates, but when it comes to really minor stuff, I’ll leave that to the specialists.
SDCollector, you made your point. I'm guilty of exuding too much exuberance over VAMs but I personally enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
I agree with the assessment of the Top 100 list (and speculated it was nothing more than a sales vehicle) but I also see where VAM research is expanding out beyond the Top 100/Hot 50 realm. Rob Joyce has put together his efforts on the 1921-D, a number of people are actively studying 1878-S and there a few other works are out there for specific years.
Fortunately only a small percentage of dealers actually try market their coins as VAMs, which means there are plenty of them out there left to find at common prices if one just takes the time to look.
Jeff
Semper ubi sub ubi
<< <i>Fortunately only a small percentage of dealers actually try market their coins as VAMs, which means there are plenty of them out there left to find at common prices if one just takes the time to look. >>
That is the impression I get too as the 1921 Peace Dollar in my last post cost only $30 as a Raw VG ( still is in Raw condition ) about 3 years ago. It was by accident that I picked it up and being a VAM as I wasn`t aware of VAM`s when I bought it. Don`t know if the dealer knew that or not but, got a deal considering that VAM collectors are interested in it.
I was there when someone was looking for 1921 Peace Dollars at the time I got it. The dealer took it out and the guy said he didn`t want one in that low of condition. When he put it back in the display, I had a look at it and liked it right off the bat. When the other customer left, I had him take it right back out and bought it right on the spot!
I don`t follow VAM`s as closely as many of the the posters to this thread do but, I`m a passive enthusist of them. It`s like an added bonus.