With the cost of plastic and an opinion being as high as it is

Boom

and the prices that some coins go for, such as MS 66 Washingtons (32-64), it just doesn't pay to submit unless you're lucky enough to have deadringer 67s and HOPE the graders agree.

If you really think about it, $18 minimum for a "service" that takes graders seconds to perform ... given the number of coins that have been graded here...this "service", plastic and a subjective opinion in which one point can make huge differences in premiums realized, is just a bit much.

These prices could be cut in half and PCGS would STILL be raking it in hand over fist. It's gotten to the point that I can buy my coins of choice, already made, with nothing left to chance for less than what taking chances making my own costs! Does PCGS have some sort of Death Wish or something?

If they never grade another coin they have still generated tremendous revenue and HRH's brainchild will have been a huge success for him. He must have one heck of a bank account. It just doesn't make sense to hurt your members, the people that believe in PCGS the most and now I understand that there is really no benefit to having a Gold membership if what I hear is true that they can no longer submit coins. Just listen to the complaints day after day. The members are restless.

I don't know....maybe this is one way to slow down submissions, to catch up and decrease turnaround times. Just thinking out loud here, trying to make sense of it all. At what point...how high must someone stack money before enough is enough?

Now, consider just how crazy this really is. Using the Sheldon scale, in some series 66s', just 4 points from perfect, can actually be bought for less than the price of submissions. I'm talking about 50-70 year old coins here! That IS crazy! Same series...GEM 65s, no body wants! GEMS!! 64s, forget about it.

Seems like this hobby was a lot more fun back in the old days when collecting coins was precisely that...COLLECTING, not buying plastic and paying for services that aren't even certain of a coins' grade. I've BEEN wanting to ask these questions, wondering if this has occured to others as well. Hey, whatever... crooked dealers selling overgraded raw coins, cleaned coins, sliders and counterfeits to a mostly Numismatically challenged, if not ignorant, public are the ones I hold responsible for bringing this on.

Just look at the great ANA Member /dealer that STILL advertises in Coin World to this very day even after being booted from the ANA. CW, with full knowledge of this, allows him to, all because of the Almighty Dollar. What does this say about them? Geeez!

OK, I'm through now. Sometimes you just have to vent.

Sphinx357

uh oh

Gonfunko

I tend to agree with your points. Just another thought - does anyone know what the benefits plan for graders looks like? Maybe it costs so much to pay for all the eye surgery they'll wind up getting in later years. After all, looking at that many small shiny things in a dark room all day can't be good for your eyes or your neck. I also think the increase in fees may be to discourage submission in an effort to ease the backlog somewhat, and wouldn't be surprised to see them drop if the Economy time is ever to around 10 days. I don't see the costs as entirely unreasonable, however. PCGS does have to hire a professional team of graders, pay them (I've heard figures as high as $250,000 a year), get the sonic sealing machines, which are very expensive, pay for insurance, the costs of maintaining a building for offices and grading, hire security personnel, actually buy the plastic shells and inserts, hire customer service representatives, pay their phone, internet, and electric bills, pay for the costs associated with maintaining a large, interractive website, and physically grade the coins. However, I also agree that grades do take some of the fun out of collecting. As an example, with my Large Cents, I have not graded a single coin in the set. If I like the coin and I like the price, I buy it, irregardless of the number someone has assigned to it.

hotpockets01

Thought. What truly amazes me is the difference in price of a coin. I have a GW 25 cents 32S MS60 graded by NGC that isn't worth as much as one graded by PCGS. Same coin same degree of assessment on the Sheldon scale but it's worth less. And this ridiculos price difference between grades of oa much as a $1,000.00 is stupid for 1 point on the scale. I'm new but talking to older collectors in good old days the old grades were good. I don't send anything into PCGS anymore I won't wait that long on my coins. Things will begin to happen at PCGS because of greed and heads will roll. If you want to sell a coin and get a good price for it you have to go to a show and trade or sale which is fun. I love Walkers and to see the tremdous difference in pricing is a shame.

Boom

Where this difference in premium between the alleged top two TPG services comes from is beyond me. That gap seems to be closing though. PCGS is NOT doing itself any favors and it's really a shame.

Steve27

It's the old story of supply and demand. Because of PCGS's insistance that only a small number of graders are capable of grading coins to their standards, they have a limited number of coins they can process per unit time. Thus, with a large backlog, and unhappy customers waiting for their coins to be graded, they have chosen to raise prices and membership fees. When/if the backlog disappears, the pricing/fees will fall too.

Has anyone noticed a decrease in the number of PCGS holdered coins at shows? I have, and surprizingly more ANACS and not NGC slabs have appeared.

BAJJERFAN

If only the mint would make each coin EXACTLY THE SAME and quit handling them like they were some sort of bulk commodity all of our problems would be solved.

dorkkarl

the fees charged by plastic co's have sucked near half a BILLION-WITH-A-"BEE" dollars out of the coin market. you think that's a high cost???

that's $500,000,000.00 that have gone to line the pockets of plastic corporations.

K S

BAJJERFAN

A half billion in fees/expenses over 20 years is a pittance compared to the increased revenue those plastic coated coins brought to their owners. I bet people got screwed out of way more than that on raw coins.

nwcs

Simple economics. If the demand for PCGS's services drops, they'll find ways to add incentives to bring people back. But they owe it to their shareholders, not us, to maximize profit. Their primary mission is to "line their pockets" because what other reason is there for going into business?

Now, I don't agree with all the recent changes and it will make me think twice before submitting. But for now it won't affect me much. I'm not a big submitter and I upped for 2 years last summer. When summer '06 comes around, I'll figure out what I want to do then.

But you are right, though. There are some where it pays to buy in holder. But remember that many of those are dealer submissions that cost a lot less.

kieferscoins

<< <i>Just look at the great ANA Member /dealer that STILL advertises in Coin World to this very day even after being booted from the ANA. CW, with full knowledge of this, allows him to, all because of the Almighty Dollar. What does this say about them? Geeez! >>



Which dealer are you talking about?

Cameron Kiefer

Dollars

PCGS does not drive the market. WE do. If folks were not willing to support what was happening if would fall flat on its face.

I don't care how good your coffee is I won't pay 5.00 + a cup. But Starbucks still rakes it in. We may find in as short a 5 to 10 years that the market will not support itself. But by the same right, maybe coin in a certain grade are indeed that rare and the amount charged to grade and prices realized supported.

I do love the free market


IMHO

dorkkarl

<< <i>A half billion in fees/expenses over 20 years is a pittance compared to the increased revenue those plastic coated coins brought to their owners. I bet people got screwed out of way more than that on raw coins. >>

sorry, i don't care how you try & sugar coat it, you'll never convince me that a half-billion dollars could EVER be a pittance, no way no how, not even to a bill gates. dunno how you could even conceive of such a statement.

2d, i'd love to see how you think plastic has "increased revenue" to collectors when in fact COLLECTORS are the 1's SUBSIDIZING the cost of plastic.

K S

razorface1027

Seems like this hobby was a lot more fun back in the old days when collecting coins was precisely that...COLLECTING

Precisely why I got in and got out of the slabbed game quickly at a nominal loss. It seems to me that slowly but surely filling Whitman books is more enjoyable than the race for the slabs. It lends me a greater intrinsic value as a collector. JMO.

DrWho

I concur. I'm not really very happy with my 'free with gold membership' submissions. Suspect they spent more time slabbing than actual grading. One has to be sent in for pres review. That's another cost to me, just to have a grader spend more than 30 seconds on the grade. And given the PCGS volume and how quick the submission was done, it could only have been a 30 second look. I'm torked. Apparently I need to find a Dealer with the 'inside track' or 'clout'.

The more I take the more I feel as if the hobby is.................'gamed'.

dorkkarl

hey dr-who, that's about as well put as i've ever read.

K S

BAJJERFAN

<<"Very nice post Rob790. I think the above statement you made is THE most significant aspect in determining whether the coin you are viewing is original or bunk. I believe most people who know what they're looking at with regards to toned coins can just glance at a coin and make a AT/NT determination in a couple of seconds in most cases.



There is no substitute for experience.">>
XXXXXXX

This exact same statement can be made about why most experts can grade most coins in a few seconds. Unfortunately not all coins of one kind [say 1878-s Morgans] are eaxctly the same; even those coming from the same die pair.

hotpockets01

Dr Who The dealer to be looking for shouldn't be Heritage because they are complaining about PCGS service, or at least the girls I talk to. They have to go to their higher up's to call PCGS to get them moving on important customers coins They are using ANACS alot. I had coins waiting to be graded for a show never did make it, I'm not a big important customer.

Ever wonder since this is like a PCGS site if they read this stuff and pay attention to it.

clackamas

I don't see the point in any of this, it's simple economics at all levels. Sure a PCGS MS66 Washington is not hardly worth the slabbing fee, but what is that same coin worth out of the holder? Probably about the same difference between the slabbing fee and the raw price. If it does not make sense to send it in then don't.

PCGS's grading fees went up because they had 0 excess capacity and this was causing problems (I suppose) so they raise prices which will decrease demand but if HRH is smart he did the math and moving towards the "X" in the maximization graph to maximize profit. It is a business isn't it. Collecting is still collecting, use you hammer if you want the old days or use your eyes and trust your own grading when buying raw. Nothing has changed. TPG is just a different way to collect, the old way is still alive and well, just look at all the shysters on Ebay selling whizzed and polished garbage, then there are ebay sellers selling quality raw material as well. you local dealer probably has all sorts of raw and slabbed coins.

PCGS coins are worth more because they are, IMO, a little tighter than NGC or ANACS. I know on Lincolns at the MS66 level they are about the same, but NGC and ANACS 67's are not. So If I want the nicer coin I pay more for the PCGS coin but if I am happy with what NGC calls a 67RD then I pay less. What’s the problem both services serve a niche in the market.