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So tell me: Will the market/hobby ever be based on true rarity across the board? I mean, we have o

...the like and yet there are still coins with very low mintages/pops that are "undervalued" by comparison. I know that demand is everything but has rarity ever been the number one driving factor or has it always been a combination of things like it is today? I guess other thiings like design considerations and the like are the most important for many people. Will there ever be a day when rarity/scarecity is king over everything else? Will the field ever be "leveled" to where the lower pops start to outshine their more popular common counterparts? (Barber coinage vs walking libs for example.)

On a side note, does anyone know where the 09svdb fits into the sheldon rarity scale? It it actually an r-1? If so, that is amazing!



Comments

  • itsnotjustmeitsnotjustme Posts: 8,777 ✭✭✭
    Never. You hit the nail on the head with the demand part. Supply, demand and condition drive the prices. While there is a large demand for 09-S VDB cents, there is not nearly such for many later 1800 proofs. Proof two cent, three cent and nickel coins are a bargain compared to Buffalo nickels or walkers.
    Give Blood (Red Bags) & Platelets (Yellow Bags)!
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,082 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder how popular Morgans would be if the 93-s and 94 were nonexistent or had pops of 10 or less.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Never is true. Rarity/scarcity should always be considered relevant only within the series of interest.

    image

    Above is a bar chart for looking at original mintage numbers of Halfeagles by type. There is high correlation of current survivors by type to original mintage, at least in this series. If one were looking to purchase an example of a TRULY rare or scarce Half Eagle, CONDITION and PRICE aside, would one buy an example from the available-for-sale Early/Classic group or would one buy an example from the available No Motto/Motto/Indian group?

    There are a number of relatively (to 1909-S V.D.B cent, for example) low mintage, relatively scarce, Half Eagles, irregardless of type, available for purchase. Two or three of same could be acquired for the price of one 1909-S V.D.B.

    The last time I checked ebay, I saw about 50 examples of 1909-S V.D.B (mintage 484,000) and not even one 1910-D Half eagle (mintage 193,000) being offered!

    Never is true.
    image

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • TheLiberatorTheLiberator Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭
    Thanks guys...this is an interesting topic! Great chart Mr 1874!

    I somehow think that if the market continues upwards for a number of years that collectors will eventually pay more attention to actual rarity and take a look at the "sleepers." Than again, maybe not! I have heard it said that sleepers do just that...sleep forever! image
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For me, absolute rarity is everything. I recently purchased a circulation strike coin in a nineteenth century series I do not collect in large part because it was original and had an overall PCGS population of ten coins. In this market, registry, condition rarity, and highest grades seems to rule.
  • TheLiberatorTheLiberator Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭


    << <i>For me, absolute rarity is everything. I recently purchased a circulation strike coin in a nineteenth century series I do not collect in large part because it was original and had an overall PCGS population of ten coins. In this market, registry, condition rarity, and highest grades seems to rule. >>



    Very cool. It must be nice to have a coin like that! I love absolute rarity too! (Although my pockets don't go QUITE as deep as yours...imageimageimage


  • PrethenPrethen Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭
    "While there is a large demand for 09-S VDB cents, there is not nearly such for many later 1800 proofs. Proof two cent, three cent and nickel coins "

    Hear, hear!!!!
    I cringe when I hear someone say how "rare" the SVDB is. Now, don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind owning one, because I don't right now, but it is quite common. Okay, it's not as common as most of the rest of the series, but "itsnotjustme" hit it on the head. Look at 1880-1889 (sans 1881) 3CN and you'll choke when you see the mintage figures (not to mention surviving estimates) and how much you can pick up these little guys for. The funny thing is that the early proof market (1858-1916) is pretty much a joke when you look at mintage figures versus prices.
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭✭
    You can enjoy both. I like my 1872-S dollar a lot (mintage 9,000) but there's nothing quite like owning a 1909-S VDB, either...
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Cool chart Mr 1874


    Tom
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I personally have zero interest in owning an 09-S VDB. If I did, I could easily buy one. Heritage Signature sales regularly have 20 or more up for auction in all grades. Popular? Yes. Rare? No.
  • calgolddivercalgolddiver Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭✭✭
    supply and demand - a classic economic model.

    take a look at the pop report for cal gold - all r2 to r7+. I have the JOY of owning several r6+ that are actually published in BG second ed. how cool is that ? wanna bet me that I paid SIGNIFICANTLY less for my r6+ as compared to another series ? why ? demand ..... not too many crazies like me (although there is a small fanatical group that competes against one another) chasing RARE CSDG as compared to those chasing common 09S-VDB. regards and great post.
    Top 25 Type Set 1792 to present

    Top 10 Cal Fractional Type Set

    successful BST with Ankurj, BigAl, Bullsitter, CommemKing, DCW(7), Elmerfusterpuck, Joelewis, Mach1ne, Minuteman810430, Modcrewman, Nankraut, Nederveit2, Philographer(5), Realgator, Silverpop, SurfinxHI, TomB and Yorkshireman(3)



  • << <i>On a side note, does anyone know where the 09svdb fits into the sheldon rarity scale? It it actually an r-1? If so, that is amazing! >>


    It's an R-1- Mintage of 484,000 and I would guess that over 200,000 of them are still in existance. And most of them probably grade XF or better. These coins are VERY popular but they are actually pretty common. If money wasn't an object you could probably put together a couple rolls of them at any major national show.
  • PrethenPrethen Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭
    "I would guess that over 200,000 of them are still in existance [SVDB]"

    I would hazard to guess that many more survive than that. I would even say that most survive for the simple reason is that people knew at the time it was being minted that it was being minted in small numbers. There are stories of people going to the San Francisco mint buying up rolls of these coins. I've heard dealers tell me that from time to time, one of these rolls actually comes up for sale (auction or otherwise). The coin was a known "rarity" immediately after the mintage run was done.

    Take a look on eBay at any given time and there are usually PAGES of this coin up for grabs. Now, tell me, when was the last time you saw a legitimate 1884 or 1885 3CN business strike up for sale (other than the last DLRC auction!)?
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355
    Could anyone explain the sheldon rarity system? I assume it has been around quite a while, since it applies to early large cents as well, right? I am only familiar with the one used in Cherrypickers called the universal rarity system. In that one, urs-1 means 1 known, urs-2 2 known, and would mean that the s-vdb would have the highest number, urs-20 or "I can't see the pavement for all the s-vdb's laying around."
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • PrethenPrethen Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭
    The Sheldon Scale

    R-1 Common
    R-2 Not So Common
    R-3 Scarce
    R-4 Very Scarce (population est at 76-200)
    R-5 Rare (31-75)
    R-6 Very Rare (13-30)
    R-7 Extremely rare (4-12)
    R-8 Unique or Nearly So (1,2 or 3)

    The Universal Rarity Scale by Q. David Bowers

    URS-0 None known
    URS-1 1 known, unique
    URS-2 2 known
    URS-3 3 or 4 known
    URS-4 5 to 8 known
    URS-5 9 to 16 known
    URS-6 17 to 32 known
    URS-7 33 to 64 known
    URS-8 65 to 125 known
    URS-9 126 to 250 known
    URS-10 251 to 500 known
    URS-11 501 to 1,000 known
    URS-12 1,001 to 2,000 known
    URS-13 2,001 to 4,000 known
    URS-14 4,001 to 8,000 known
    URS-15 8,001 to 16,000 known
    URS-16 16,001 to 32,000 known
    URS-17 32,001 to 65,000 known
    URS-18 65,001 to 125,000 known
    URS-19 125,001 to 250,000 known
    URS-20 250,001 to 500,000 known
    etc.
  • pharmerpharmer Posts: 8,355
    Thanks
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."

    image
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rarity merely defines supply and it is demand which primarily dictates price.

    People collect many different things and even among coin collectors there is
    a wide divergence of interest and definitions for what one considers a collect-
    ion. Talk to collectors and you'll soon learn they are almost always difficult to
    classify; they collect many different things and often for entirely different rea-
    sons. Sometimes it is mere chance that they happen to come upon a few items
    which will later form the seed of a collection. The best way to get an idea of
    price is to think of all the people you know who collect that certain item. If you
    know several then it's likely that the item is in very high demand and the price
    will reflect it. There are many coins which are quite rare but there is very little
    demand so there is a very low price.

    There is a constant change in the individuals who collect coins and each changes
    as time goes by. Just because 3c nickels have never been popular doesn't mean
    they never will be. Just because most Lincoln collections end at 1964 or '65 doesn't
    mean it will always be so. Conversely coins fall out of favor also and it's not impos-
    sible that in twenty years most collectors will prefer sewing thimbles or stamps to
    Morgan dollars.

    No. It's impossible price will ever be determined by rarity alone since even the line
    between what is and isn't a coin could never be agreed on and to collectors, most
    coins are already as individual as fingerprints making them all unique.
    Tempus fugit.
  • NO

    and why should it be, supply is only half the equation.

    You can tell me all week how rare a high grade full steps Nickel is but I'll take a common Oregon Commem anyday.

    On the table next to each other, its no contest.

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