By marketing crossovers, PCGS has manageded to remove most of the nice coins

ScarsdaleCoin

Happy Holidays to all.....I had a chance to catch up on some reading this week and looked at the June 2004 Longacre's Ledger....a very interesting article entitled..."It's the coin, stupid" by Ira Davidoff states
the point that PCGS has branded itself much better than NGC and questions if the branding will last say 10 years from now and that it is not worth paying more for the PCGS slab.....the part that really caught my eye was this........

PCGS has done an excellent job of branding itself. It has done this by offering to cross over NGC or other coins to a PCGS holder. By marketing crossovers, PCGS has managed to remove most of the nice coins for grade from NGC holders and place them in PCGD holders, leaving the dogs in NGC holders. This is how PCGS has built its brand image for quality at the expense of NGC

interesting what do you think?

JrGMan2004

<< <i>interesting what do you think? >>

Trimes are cool?

BAJJERFAN

Well common sense tells you that there has to be a reason that collectors WANT THEIR COINS IN PCGS HOLDERS IN THE FIRST PLACE. I bet the first thing that goes through most collectors' minds when offered a non-PCGS coin is "will it cross or upgrade at PCGS." I have never seen anything advertising-wise to suggest that PCGS goes out looking for crossover business. They offer the service so that if the coin doesn't meet their standards for the grade at least you get it back in some kind of holder. In response to complaints about low crossover rates sometime back HRH came right out and said that they want the best coins in PCGS holders; it would be foolish not to.

nwcs

Sounds like a good marketing strategy to me. One that likely works.

BAJJERFAN

Has anyone actually ever seen a PCGS ad looking for crossover business? AFAIK all they do is offer the service. I doubt that they EVER promote it!!

MrEureka

By marketing crossovers, PCGS has managed to remove most of the nice coins for grade from NGC holders and place them in PCGD holders, leaving the dogs in NGC holders.

The effect is real but overstated. There are still millions of "nice coins" (whatever that means) in NGC holders.

ziggy29

<< <i>Has anyone actually ever seen a PCGS ad looking for crossover business? AFAIK all they do is offer the service. I doubt that they EVER promote it!! >>

They certainly don't discourage it. One could (correctly, IMO) argue that their registry set policy of excluding ALL other TPG coins from PCGS registry sets does more to encourage crossovers (and by crossing the best NGC coins, make PCGS look "more conservative" and get higher prices in the market) than any advertising could.

However, PCGS really needs to do something about their turnaround times. I think they're losing share to NGC, and as more quality NGC coins are out there and people are hesitant to wait 60-90 days for a PCGS holder in crossover, their distinction could be blurring.

BAJJERFAN

As LucyBop says "More PCGS for Me"

cdan12

pcgs or raw is all I buy anymore.

IrishMike

Most real collectors wouldn't even think about which slab its in or whether it would cross, etc. blah blah blah other than is the grading company reputable and do I think its graded correctly. The folks that come by here represented less than 1% of the collecting populace. To them its the coin not whether or not they can brag about having the best "PCGS" set or how they got 4 or 5 or 6 out of seven to cross. All interesting stuff but hardly what most collectors think about.

BAJJERFAN

True; but if you are going to sell into the market of the 99% of collectors who don't come here then you want it in the best holder available in their minds and thats PCGS.

coinkat

I think there is an element of truth to this, however, there are still coins in NGC, ANACS and even the old PCI holders that are quality for the grade. If you own coins that the grade on the plastic is the first thing that a collector/dealer notices, you may not have the coin you think...

DHeath

interesting what do you think?

I think it means the folks who pay the holder premium are a cottage industry. How do you make sure you pay the most? Buy one that someone else was smart enough to cross. Some folks feel more comfortable paying a premium. They think it's the old Sears good, better, and best. They'll tell you how the services grade, and make no mention of how they grade themselves, or why they like or dislike a coin. To their credit, they've certainly breathed life into the TPG's.

ksteelheader

<< <i>Most real collectors wouldn't even think about which slab its in or whether it would cross, etc. blah blah blah other than is the grading company reputable and do I think its graded correctly. The folks that come by here represented less than 1% of the collecting populace. To them its the coin not whether or not they can brag about having the best "PCGS" set or how they got 4 or 5 or 6 out of seven to cross. All interesting stuff but hardly what most collectors think about. >>

DennisH

I think that has clearly been the effect, but I'm very reluctant to say it was a planned, long range strategy. As smart and as visionary as David Hall is, I just don't think he could play "connect the dots" with this scenario 20 years ago.

IMO, the market's desire to get coins from anyone else's holder into a PCGS holder has mostly to do with the market's perception that PCGS coins tend to be more easily saleable at what are often higher prices.

oreville

ScarsdaleCoin: As Andy said , the comment is real but overstated. One of the ways it is overstated is that there are many older NGC slabbed coins that are still high end/undergraded for the assigned grade that have still not been taken out of their collections for cross grading.

I know; I still have a number of them.

WACoinGuy

<< <i>IMO, the market's desire to get coins from anyone else's holder into a PCGS holder has mostly to do with the market's perception that PCGS coins tend to be more easily saleable at what are often higher prices. >>



Yep. And the increased grading fees and long wait times will probably move to push that premium higher next year.

coynclecter

Unless one is chasing the registry, its a waste of money to "cross" it to PCGS. I hardly believe that the 90% of collectors out there who are not dealers and who do not read these forums would waste thier money playing the reholder/crossover game.

Most collectors buy and sell in the same holder.

tradedollarnut

No - not all the nice coins all in PCGS holders. First of all, you'd need to define a 'nice coin'. Second, you need to be mindful of the cycle of grading coinage:

Yes, PCGS wants all the eye appealing NGC coinage out of NGC holders and in PCGS holders. But once it's in the PCGS holder, all of a sudden it's seen as PQ and an upgrade shot so out it comes and back to NGC it goes. Whether or not it upgrades, it's still in the NGC holder once again! Repeat ad nauseum.

Additionally, NGC is aggressively going after sets of coins that are either going onto their Registry or going into auction. The perception is that, while not every coin will upgrade, enough coins will upgrade to make it worthwhile having the entire set in the NGC holder. Thus many of the coins that were PQ and a shot upgrade in the PCGS holder are now in the same holder at NGC because the entire set was submitted.

And then there's the NGC star - an interesting marketing feature that keeps many [tho certainly not all] nice coins in NGC holders.

So to even for a moment think that every nice coin is in one company's holder is to stick one's head firmly into .... uhmm ... the sand.

oreville

Also coins slabbed in black NGC holders will NEVER be crossed over to PCGS.

I also agree with TDN and to the opposite movement of PCGS graded sets to NGC.

Also, aren't more of the famous/ultra rare coins residing in NGC versus PCGS than before?

IrishMike

Very good points just study the Bowers Sale and see how many consensus and pop top coins in the Lull collection are both NGC and PCGS coins or look at some of the liberty seated material in that sale, the ANR and Heritage sales. They are many coins that are at the top of the grade. Those collectors are worried whether their sets were in any registry or whether they would cross. Its obvious these collectors appreciated the coins.

If one has been paying attention to the grading services this year you will have noticed that there is not any statistically difference in their grading. The other thing that I have noticed this year is that many posters to this forum and modified their position from only collectiing coins slabbed by PCGS to looking at other coins and their pro-PCGS rhetoric has softened as the reality of the market and how the two comparies grade in comparison to one another is almost if not identical. In certain series there are differences but more in my opinion more one of what is more important to assigning a certain grade then actually one company being tougher. Actually I think that is a good thing. Collectors here seem to be more willing to go after coins encapsulated by NGC then they were a couple of years ago.

TDN made a good point too, whether you like the * designation or not its had the desired affect on the market for high end coins.

Lakesammman

I've known Ira for some time. He's a smart man but you need to know/remember a few things.

One, he's a full-time MD, not a coin-industry guru. Take what he says with a grain of salt. I like the article he wrote but it's not gospel.

Second, he's a small cent/copper collector. Red PCGS coins are definitely nicer than red NGC coins. I don't think however that you can generalize his (or my) experience across all series. TDN's coins would look just as nice in PCI holders.

Third, he owns NGC coins too.

morgannut2

As a general rule, the first thing I think about when viewing a coin is why is it not in a PCGS holder? I've found many nice PQ Morgans in NGC and ANACS holders, but a lot of overgraded and thumbed material too. The only quantifible difference in Morgans between NGC-PCGS is in their very real current definitions of Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) verses Deep Prooflike (DPL) as well as assigning a PL designation.

IrishMike

I would have agreed in the past that PCGS was tougher on copper especiall lincolns and IHCs but from what I have seen coming from NGC lately the coin grades are indistinguishable. There are still a boat load of copper coins in NGC holders that I disagree with the grades on.

Russ

<< <i>I think they're losing share to NGC >>



There is no question that they are. NGC is also grading pretty damned tight these days. Anybody who doesn't think so, just submit some coins and see what happens. Case in point:

My most recent submission to them included a 1965 SMS Kennedy cracked out of a PCGS MS66CAM OGH slab. It had a glue spot at the upper reverse periphery so I sent it through NCS hoping for an MS67CAM from NGC. The grade they assigned? MS66 NO CAM.

Russ, NCNE

RYK

I own nice coins in PCGS holders and nice coins in NGC holders. I have owned dogs in both, as well. I will continue to buy nice, original coins in whatever holders they find themselves. IMO, smaller coins look better in PCGS holders, but that personal preference does not alter my purchasing strategy.

UncleWiggly

What do crack-out dealers do? NGC to PCGS going for an upgrade? Or PCGS to NGC going for an upgrade?



Jerry

Elcontador

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but in the last year, I thought PCGS basically said something to the effect of that only the 'best' of the NGC coins in a given grade would cross at the same grade to PCGS holders. Laura had many threads complaining about this, and I put in several on this topic myself.

Personally, since Rick Montgomery moved across the street, I think the grading at NGC re classic type has tightened up and its customer service has improved. It used to be that I wouldn't look at an SLQ in an NGC holder. But a year ago I bought a 29P in FH 6 that to see it is to fall in love with it. Because it was in an NGC holder, I got a 10-15% price break on the coin, though it's nicer than most PCGS coins of this type, grade & designation than I've seen.

People only want to cross a coin to a PCGS holder when there's a material price spread between a PCGS & NGC coin at that particular grade. When it comes to type, Coronet and Braided Hair Large Cents, and Liberty Nickels come to mind in MS 65 or better. However, when you're looking at nice coins which are scarce, people buy the coin, not the holder.

roadrunner

PCGS is only interested in crossing possibly the best 5-10% of the NGC coins. My collection is about 85% NGC and I have submitted my very best NGC coins to PCGS for crossover, and came back empty handed time and time again. Batting average Zero. These are coins that I can easily get premiums to CDN for because the coins are very solid or PQ for the grade. There is no doubt in my mind
that PCGS is playing politics and really doesn't want the best NGC coins in their holders.....only a scant few. And to say few NGC coins don't measure up is just absurd. The numbers alone indicate that 65-80% of all NGC classics should meet PCGS standards. And ithis isn't even cherrypicking them first. Since the actual crossover rates are about 1/3 of what would be expected if they were submitted raw, this is real proof of some game they are playing.

If PCGS's goal is to take the top 20-40% of the NGC coins off the market, they are doing a poor job of it.

roadrunner

BAJJERFAN

Well that way they get to grade NGC coins twice: once on crossover then again as crackouts. My last two crossover submissions went 8 of 9 with the one I thought had the best chance to cross ot making it. A 10th coin I sold to a board member also crossed.

michael

RYK
Expert Collector

Posts: 4426
Joined: Jan 2003
Saturday December 25, 2004 6:33 PM (NEW!)



I own nice coins in PCGS holders and nice coins in NGC holders. I have owned dogs in both, as well. I will continue to buy nice, original coins in whatever holders they find themselves. IMO, smaller coins look better in PCGS holders, but that personal preference does not alter my purchasing strategy.

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morgannut2

Hey face it guys. Who cares if someone wants to spend lots of money on holders--the coins the same!

But what about all those classic gems with interesting former ownership histories that go to NCS to have

their original "skin" removed to squeeze that last one extra upgrade? Looks like it's NGC/NCS that have

managed to remove SOMETHING from some nice coins at crossover, not PCGS.

roadrunner

At times, it appears to me that PCGS doesn't even want their OWN coins in their holders. Figure that one out. I've sent in green tag PCGS coins that I had to beat out some saavy dealers for only to get 1 point down grades. This only ensures that they'll end up back to NGC for the proper grade (or upgrade). Bottom line is that the services don't have the quality of expertise in pre-1930 type and classic coins that they did 15 years ago. That's the one shining truth through all this. But I give them credit for improving the grading on the post-1930 material.

Let's not forget either that a large % of the PCGS classic coins sitting in lonely cases on bourse floors are not nice specimens. The reason? Sharp buyers have salted away the nice PCGS coins (as well as NGC). This leaves the impression at shows that coins are overgraded. If I want a nice PCGS or NGC coin I either wait for fresh coins to return from the grading services via local dealers, or attend auctions for collections that have been off the market for 10-20 years or more.

roadrunner

lava

Interesting post and comments, but bear in mind, there are a lot of coins that do not circulate, so no one ever gets to see them. When they surface, it is exciting, as I think original coins fare well by today's standards. The fact that the coin may be in an NGC holder does not mean that the coin isn't pq -- it may mean simply that is has been out of the loop in terms of the cross-over game. I have bought some pq coins in both NGC and ANACS holders because they were graded and stored and never surfaced again until the owner opted to sell.

coinlieutenant

In regards to the original post, yes, I think Jon is on target to an extent. Many nice NGC coins get crossed. I do it because I think the coins
look better in PCGS holders. I really dislike the NGC slabs, alot.

I know that most people dont cross for that reason but I would say that about 60% of nice NGC coins get moved over to PCGS.

I do think that PCGS is picky about their crosses, moreso even when grading them out of an NGC holder.

I am 9 of 10 on my crosses, but they are all stunning coins that I felt even PCGS couldnt resist putting them in their holder. I truly think that eye appeal goes along way for crosses. I look at that just as much as technical grade. IMO, if the coin is solid technically and eye appealing it will cross. If one of those two elements are missing, it will not cross much of the time. That is not to say that it wouldnt grade the same if you cracked it out and sent it in if it were solid for the technical grade but not an appealing coin.

The fact is that 75% of the coins out there in slabs are crap. 24% are decent and the remaining 1% is what everyone should strive for and what the market is really hot on...