Reading through the opinions on the last three pages was quite interesting.
What I find aggravating about "moderns" is the dating. For ANACS a modern is from 1979 to present and for PCGS starts at 1971. Personally I would call a "modern" post 1964 when the US went to a debased coinage system.
As for whether "modern" coins in high mint states have any value based on "rarity", well "John Q Public" pretty much has the final say on that I think. I was born in 1956 and remember using silver dimes, quarters and fifty cent peices all the time. My children however, have known nothing but clad coinage all their lives. They are collectors because I am a collector and they grew up in an atmosphere where history, rarity and beauty were important. Each of them collects something different and for their own reasons. I find it ironic that coins that were common pocket change in the 60's and 70's now command premiums I never considered at the time. The common coins in our pockets today will command the same premiums in high grades 25 years from now.
One can argue that millions of modern coins are being pounded out by the mint on a yearly basis and so rarity is not a factor in most denominations. Putting things in perspective on the basis of "mintage" numbers, the perceived rarity of high grade peices is still valid. Bust a roll of Sac's, state quarters, dimes, bank or mint rolled and you will be hard pressed to come up with a solid group of MS65+ coins in great numbers. I have personally broken several hundred rolls of Sac's, Kennedy's and state quarters from the US mint and find myself looking at 40-70% of BU junk in a roll that would grade AU if you were generous. The US Mint is not kind to "business strike" coinage and it doesn't matter if it is in a mint roll or not. The premiums for high MS and PR coins are there for a reason, they are rare and will continue to become rarer as time goes on.
The key to collecting world coins, US modern, or US "Classics" is quality. We may grumble about TPG's and the preceived "market trend" they create. TPG's serve a purpose and the better ones have a premium due to the cost of their services. You can always choose to purchase and collect "raw" coins but the simple fact is you will not get top dollar for "raw" coinage in today's market; put it in an NGC, PCGS, ANACS slab however, and you will generally get a consistently higher price per coin. I purchased hundreds of rolls of Morgan and Peace Dollars in MS63+ grades during 1970-1985 and set them aside. I am now sending those coins off to ANACS and PCGS and the grades coming back are generally higher than what I graded the coins at when I purchased them. I am not complaining at all (well not much anyway) the ANACS and PCGS grades on my Morgans and Peace Dollars will let me realize a sweet profit on a per coin basis that will augment my retirement income quite handsomely.
The "modern" coinage I am setting aside now for my grand-children are high grade coins and in fifteen to twenty years, that quality should pay a handsome premium. The State Quarters, Sac's, Keelboat Nickels of today will be the avidly collected rarities of the 2020-2030 hobby population. TPG's slabs will "protect" the coins physically if nothing else. I remember well the coin market of the 70's and early 80's, believe me the top quality TPG's are a good thing for the general public and the collector.
"Any fool can use Power, but it is our wits that make us men."
Collecting Penguins, Named Ship Coins and other assorted goodies
Deja vu all over again. What's interesting to me is how many times this exact thread has been started before the original poster even joined these forums. The last dozen times this was debated nothing new was said. I'm finding this thread to be no exception.
The thinly veiled 'i'm just looking out for new collector interests' and 'collecting is about rarity for me, not condition' does not cover for your obvious bias against those who collect 'moderns'. If your decision to make this thread was to apologize to your friends whom you may have offended I doubt this thread has accomplished your goal.
IMO, a thread titled 'My position on Moderns' shall be relegated to the dust heap of inane threads which contains titles such as 'I'm leaving the forums' and 'My parents upped my meds so I can post to the coin forum again'.
The thinly veiled 'i'm just looking out for new collector interests' and 'collecting is about rarity for me, not condition' does not cover for your obvious bias against those who collect 'moderns'.
Wrong. Wrong. WRONG! I have nothing against folks who collect moderns. Nada. Zip. Why would I care? They can collect pornography, classic Mustangs, beer bottles, Monet paintings... Why should I have a bias against them?
IMO, a thread titled 'My position on Moderns' shall be relegated to the dust heap of inane threads
Why is that? It is a thread about coin collecting. Is it not what this forum is about? I learned quite a bit from the thread, and as much from Keets' companion thread ("My position on Classics"). Isn't that what this forum is about? If you do not talk about collecting coins on this forum, all you will be left with is the threads about people leaving and people having their meds adjusted. If you do not find anything interested in this, or any other coin-related thread, just don't read it.
Here's some irony for you, Sean. You may remember that I purchased some slabbed "moderns" from you earlier this year.
Here’s a true statement that almost always gets those who sell modern condition rarity coins hot under the collar and ready to unload their personal attacks EVERY TIME.
It is possible to overpay for ANY COIN, classic or modern.
HONEST veteran dealers, who deal predominately in “classic coins” will admit this. I’ve yet to see any of the dealers who make their living modern selling “wonder coins” (no slam on any individual intended) to EVER acknowledge that this is true. Their line of bull is that you can never overpay for anything. The higher the price, the better (for them) especially if they are collecting the big check.
This time last year we say a bunch of lemmings diving over the insanity cliff as they bid more than $40,000.00 for a 1963 cent that was in a so-called PR-70, D-Cam holder. In reality the coin was spotted, appeared to be getting worse, and was really worth no more than $5.
The TRUTH came to light when PCGS bought this item off the market.
And yes, another truism is, “You CAN have more money than brains.”
Overpaying for a coin is the only major objection that I have about the modern coin market. I don't dislike the product or condemn those who enjoy them. BUT if you value money, you should put some thought into that 5-figure purchase.
You can overpay for anything.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Overpaying for a coin is the only major objection that I have about the modern coin market. I don't dislike the product or condemn those who enjoy them. BUT if you value money, you should put some thought into that 5-figure purchase.
>>
One can underpay for anything also. The market is telling us that people have been underpaying for many moderns for a long time. My opinion is that people are still underpaying for many of them.
I do generally agree that few regular issue moderns are going to be worth five figures for some time yet. While I wouldn't dispute anyone's right to point out coins which may be overpriced whether they are classics or moderns, I am not going to do this. I personally do not feel it is my place to tell someone who just spent a lot of money on a classic or a modern that he grossly overpaid. Anyone who had come to me asking advice on the '63 cent would not have bought it on my recommendation.
To each his own- - and this goes several times over when you're just talking style.
Yes, you can overpay for anything, moderns included. There aren't that many common date moderns holdered. To pretend from the holdered population there is any correlation to the ungraded pops is "marketing". I think Robert's post is well intended. The collectors he mentioned, Russ, Keets, and Frank are great modern collectors, and deserve the kudos Robert gave them. They'd be on my short list as well. Not one of them would overpay for a common coin. They understand what they collect. My only complaint about advice threads regarding moderns is that most of the time they come from collectors or dealers who don't specialize in moderns, and in fact don't understand why some deserve a premium. Some do. Although well intended, I think most of that advice would prove as useful as my advice would be regarding civil war tokens, or early gold. I'm not picking on Robert, as his post will prove educational, but I do not feel compelled to start a thread regarding the perils of overpaying for civil war tokens. It is an area of collecting in which I have no expertise. Overpay for anything? Absolutely. Try buying classics in third-tier holders for the prices stated in the PCGS price guide. If we're going to get mad at those that take advantage of newbies, this thread will know no bounds. I'll stick to warning the newbies within my area of study. JMO
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i> I personally do not feel it is my place to tell someone who just spent a lot of money on a classic or a modern that he grossly overpaid. >>
And I would submit that this industry needs to do better than that if we are to improve our image and not go back to "the bad old days." Earlier this week a novice investor posted a list of gold coins on this site that he had just puchased from a coin firm. His total price paid came to 81% over the Gray Sheet "bid" which worked out to the fact that he had paid over $3,000 too much. Several dealers and collectors pointed this out him, and as a result he says that he was able to get a refund.
This purchase was on some "classic" U.S. gold coins. Why is it wrong to do this? What is problem with trying save a new collector from getting picked off?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
This purchase was on some "classic" U.S. gold coins. Why is it wrong to do this? What is problem with trying save a new collector from getting picked off? >>
I have no problem with this. As I said it's mostly just a matter of style.
Style is an individual decision and can be determined by overriding considerations.
I have no problem when it's a single modern or modern type being trashed either, though will certainly speak up if I disagree.
Saving new collectors is a worthy goal and I salute those who do it. Sometimes it seems that moderns get trashed in the process.
<< <i>Here’s a true statement that almost always gets those who sell modern condition rarity coins hot under the collar and ready to unload their personal attacks EVERY TIME.
It is possible to overpay for ANY COIN, classic or modern.
HONEST veteran dealers, who deal predominately in “classic coins” will admit this. I’ve yet to see any of the dealers who make their living modern selling “wonder coins” (no slam on any individual intended) to EVER acknowledge that this is true. Their line of bull is that you can never overpay for anything. The higher the price, the better (for them) especially if they are collecting the big check.
This time last year we say a bunch of lemmings diving over the insanity cliff as they bid more than $40,000.00 for a 1963 cent that was in a so-called PR-70, D-Cam holder. In reality the coin was spotted, appeared to be getting worse, and was really worth no more than $5.
The TRUTH came to light when PCGS bought this item off the market.
And yes, another truism is, “You CAN have more money than brains.”
Overpaying for a coin is the only major objection that I have about the modern coin market. I don't dislike the product or condemn those who enjoy them. BUT if you value money, you should put some thought into that 5-figure purchase.
You can overpay for anything. >>
ext fr
If truly concerned about the new collector who may have an enthusiasm for a modern series. A knowledgeable disscusion about witch coins may be undervalued and witch may have lower prices at a later date. Rather than pointing out the most over priced coin i can think of, would serve both the industry, hobby, and collector better.
Comments
What I find aggravating about "moderns" is the dating. For ANACS a modern is from 1979 to present and for PCGS starts at 1971. Personally I would call a "modern" post 1964 when the US went to a debased coinage system.
As for whether "modern" coins in high mint states have any value based on "rarity", well "John Q Public" pretty much has the final say on that I think. I was born in 1956 and remember using silver dimes, quarters and fifty cent peices all the time. My children however, have known nothing but clad coinage all their lives. They are collectors because I am a collector and they grew up in an atmosphere where history, rarity and beauty were important. Each of them collects something different and for their own reasons. I find it ironic that coins that were common pocket change in the 60's and 70's now command premiums I never considered at the time. The common coins in our pockets today will command the same premiums in high grades 25 years from now.
One can argue that millions of modern coins are being pounded out by the mint on a yearly basis and so rarity is not a factor in most denominations. Putting things in perspective on the basis of "mintage" numbers, the perceived rarity of high grade peices is still valid. Bust a roll of Sac's, state quarters, dimes, bank or mint rolled and you will be hard pressed to come up with a solid group of MS65+ coins in great numbers. I have personally broken several hundred rolls of Sac's, Kennedy's and state quarters from the US mint and find myself looking at 40-70% of BU junk in a roll that would grade AU if you were generous. The US Mint is not kind to "business strike" coinage and it doesn't matter if it is in a mint roll or not. The premiums for high MS and PR coins are there for a reason, they are rare and will continue to become rarer as time goes on.
The key to collecting world coins, US modern, or US "Classics" is quality. We may grumble about TPG's and the preceived "market trend" they create. TPG's serve a purpose and the better ones have a premium due to the cost of their services. You can always choose to purchase and collect "raw" coins but the simple fact is you will not get top dollar for "raw" coinage in today's market; put it in an NGC, PCGS, ANACS slab however, and you will generally get a consistently higher price per coin. I purchased hundreds of rolls of Morgan and Peace Dollars in MS63+ grades during 1970-1985 and set them aside. I am now sending those coins off to ANACS and PCGS and the grades coming back are generally higher than what I graded the coins at when I purchased them. I am not complaining at all (well not much anyway) the ANACS and PCGS grades on my Morgans and Peace Dollars will let me realize a sweet profit on a per coin basis that will augment my retirement income quite handsomely.
The "modern" coinage I am setting aside now for my grand-children are high grade coins and in fifteen to twenty years, that quality should pay a handsome premium. The State Quarters, Sac's, Keelboat Nickels of today will be the avidly collected rarities of the 2020-2030 hobby population. TPG's slabs will "protect" the coins physically if nothing else. I remember well the coin market of the 70's and early 80's, believe me the top quality TPG's are a good thing for the general public and the collector.
Collecting Penguins, Named Ship Coins and other assorted goodies
Looking for Circulated coins of Papua New Guinea
stores.ebay.com/Grumpy's-Cave
The thinly veiled 'i'm just looking out for new collector interests' and 'collecting is about rarity for me, not condition' does not cover for your obvious bias against those who collect 'moderns'. If your decision to make this thread was to apologize to your friends whom you may have offended I doubt this thread has accomplished your goal.
IMO, a thread titled 'My position on Moderns' shall be relegated to the dust heap of inane threads which contains titles such as 'I'm leaving the forums' and 'My parents upped my meds so I can post to the coin forum again'.
PS. whose alt id is majorduffus?
Wrong. Wrong. WRONG! I have nothing against folks who collect moderns. Nada. Zip. Why would I care? They can collect pornography, classic Mustangs, beer bottles, Monet paintings... Why should I have a bias against them?
IMO, a thread titled 'My position on Moderns' shall be relegated to the dust heap of inane threads
Why is that? It is a thread about coin collecting. Is it not what this forum is about? I learned quite a bit from the thread, and as much from Keets' companion thread ("My position on Classics"). Isn't that what this forum is about? If you do not talk about collecting coins on this forum, all you will be left with is the threads about people leaving and people having their meds adjusted. If you do not find anything interested in this, or any other coin-related thread, just don't read it.
Here's some irony for you, Sean. You may remember that I purchased some slabbed "moderns" from you earlier this year.
<< <i>As far as anyone being able to buy a few rolls and just slab up these coins. It's not that easy. >>
See above for the bottom line.
Russ, NCNE
It is possible to overpay for ANY COIN, classic or modern.
HONEST veteran dealers, who deal predominately in “classic coins” will admit this. I’ve yet to see any of the dealers who make their living modern selling “wonder coins” (no slam on any individual intended) to EVER acknowledge that this is true. Their line of bull is that you can never overpay for anything. The higher the price, the better (for them) especially if they are collecting the big check.
This time last year we say a bunch of lemmings diving over the insanity cliff as they bid more than $40,000.00 for a 1963 cent that was in a so-called PR-70, D-Cam holder. In reality the coin was spotted, appeared to be getting worse, and was really worth no more than $5.
The TRUTH came to light when PCGS bought this item off the market.
And yes, another truism is, “You CAN have more money than brains.”
Overpaying for a coin is the only major objection that I have about the modern coin market. I don't dislike the product or condemn those who enjoy them. BUT if you value money, you should put some thought into that 5-figure purchase.
You can overpay for anything.
<< <i>
Overpaying for a coin is the only major objection that I have about the modern coin market. I don't dislike the product or condemn those who enjoy them. BUT if you value money, you should put some thought into that 5-figure purchase.
>>
One can underpay for anything also. The market is telling us that people have been underpaying
for many moderns for a long time. My opinion is that people are still underpaying for many of them.
I do generally agree that few regular issue moderns are going to be worth five figures for some time
yet. While I wouldn't dispute anyone's right to point out coins which may be overpriced whether they
are classics or moderns, I am not going to do this. I personally do not feel it is my place to tell someone
who just spent a lot of money on a classic or a modern that he grossly overpaid. Anyone who had come
to me asking advice on the '63 cent would not have bought it on my recommendation.
To each his own- - and this goes several times over when you're just talking style.
Yes, you can overpay for anything, moderns included. There aren't that many common date moderns holdered. To pretend from the holdered population there is any correlation to the ungraded pops is "marketing". I think Robert's post is well intended. The collectors he mentioned, Russ, Keets, and Frank are great modern collectors, and deserve the kudos Robert gave them. They'd be on my short list as well. Not one of them would overpay for a common coin. They understand what they collect. My only complaint about advice threads regarding moderns is that most of the time they come from collectors or dealers who don't specialize in moderns, and in fact don't understand why some deserve a premium. Some do. Although well intended, I think most of that advice would prove as useful as my advice would be regarding civil war tokens, or early gold. I'm not picking on Robert, as his post will prove educational, but I do not feel compelled to start a thread regarding the perils of overpaying for civil war tokens. It is an area of collecting in which I have no expertise. Overpay for anything? Absolutely. Try buying classics in third-tier holders for the prices stated in the PCGS price guide. If we're going to get mad at those that take advantage of newbies, this thread will know no bounds. I'll stick to warning the newbies within my area of study. JMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i> I personally do not feel it is my place to tell someone who just spent a lot of money on a classic or a modern that he grossly overpaid. >>
And I would submit that this industry needs to do better than that if we are to improve our image and not go back to "the bad old days." Earlier this week a novice investor posted a list of gold coins on this site that he had just puchased from a coin firm. His total price paid came to 81% over the Gray Sheet "bid" which worked out to the fact that he had paid over $3,000 too much. Several dealers and collectors pointed this out him, and as a result he says that he was able to get a refund.
This purchase was on some "classic" U.S. gold coins. Why is it wrong to do this? What is problem with trying save a new collector from getting picked off?
<< <i>
This purchase was on some "classic" U.S. gold coins. Why is it wrong to do this? What is problem with trying save a new collector from getting picked off?
I have no problem with this. As I said it's mostly just a matter of style.
Style is an individual decision and can be determined by overriding considerations.
I have no problem when it's a single modern or modern type being trashed either,
though will certainly speak up if I disagree.
Saving new collectors is a worthy goal and I salute those who do it. Sometimes it
seems that moderns get trashed in the process.
<< <i>Here’s a true statement that almost always gets those who sell modern condition rarity coins hot under the collar and ready to unload their personal attacks EVERY TIME.
It is possible to overpay for ANY COIN, classic or modern.
HONEST veteran dealers, who deal predominately in “classic coins” will admit this. I’ve yet to see any of the dealers who make their living modern selling “wonder coins” (no slam on any individual intended) to EVER acknowledge that this is true. Their line of bull is that you can never overpay for anything. The higher the price, the better (for them) especially if they are collecting the big check.
This time last year we say a bunch of lemmings diving over the insanity cliff as they bid more than $40,000.00 for a 1963 cent that was in a so-called PR-70, D-Cam holder. In reality the coin was spotted, appeared to be getting worse, and was really worth no more than $5.
The TRUTH came to light when PCGS bought this item off the market.
And yes, another truism is, “You CAN have more money than brains.”
Overpaying for a coin is the only major objection that I have about the modern coin market. I don't dislike the product or condemn those who enjoy them. BUT if you value money, you should put some thought into that 5-figure purchase.
You can overpay for anything. >>
ext fr
If truly concerned about the new collector who may have an enthusiasm for a modern series. A knowledgeable disscusion about witch coins may be undervalued and witch may have lower prices at a later date. Rather than pointing out the most over priced coin i can think of, would serve both the industry, hobby, and collector better.
Chris, BTC