Options
"IN GOD WE TRUST", should it stay on our coins or should it be removed? Please explain the
SanctionII
Posts: 11,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
"IN GOD WE TRUST" first appeared as a motto on US coinage with the 2 cent piece minted from 1864-1872. I looked briefly at the "Coins" magazine price guide and at my Dansco US Type Album to see on what other coins the motto has appeared.
It appears on the Lincoln Cent [1909 to present]; the Shield Nickel [1866-1883]; the Jefferson Nickel [1938 to present]; the Mercury Dime [1916-1945]; the Roosevelt Dime [1946 to present]; the Standing Liberty Quarter [1916-1930]; the Washington Quarter [1932-1998]; the Statehood Quarters [1999 to present]; the Walking Liberty Half Dollar [1916-1947]; the Franklin Half Dollar [1948-1963]; the Kennedy Half Dollar [1964 to present]; the Trade Dollar [1873-1883]; the Morgan Dollar [1878-1921]; the Peace Dollar [1921-1935]; the Eisenhower Dollar [1971-1978]; the Anthony Dollar [1979-1981 & 1999]; the Sacagawea Dollar [2000 to present]; Classic Commems [1892-1954]; Modern Commems [1982 to present]; Gold and Silver Bullion Coins [1986 to present]; and various U.S. gold coins that were minted prior to 1934. It may well appear on other coins. It also appears on our paper money.
The "IN GOD WE TRUST" motto has been on our coins for pushing 140 years.
For quite some time there has been discussion of the separation of church and state and the anti establishment clause in the U.S. Constitution. Some have opined that government should completely separate/divorce itself from religion. Some disagree and opine that our country, society and government have roots in religion and that a complete separation/divorce is neither possible or desireable.
To keep this thread coin related [at least a little bit] so that I do not get overly roasted in the OT flames that will be fired my way, I ask whether "IN GOD WE TRUST" should stay on or should be removed from our coins.
Please give your answer and then explain why your answer is correct.
Let the spirited discussion [and the flames] begin.
I will go first. The motto should stay on our coins unless society chooses to become godless and completely secular. The USA arose from colonies populated in part by persons who fled European homelands looking for freedom, including religious freedom. The founders of the USA wisely placed into the Constitution the provision which prohibits the federal government from establishing a state supported religion. The founders did not, however, seek to deny the fact that religion and/or God are part of the fabric of society and part of who we are as a people. Regardless of what religion you adhere to [Hindu, Islam, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Shinto, shamanism, druid, or as George Carlan once stated "a new religion that believes that when you die your soul goes to a garage in Buffalo"], there is a place for you in the USA. You should be free to practice your religion and the government should not deny the place of religion and/or god in our society.
It appears on the Lincoln Cent [1909 to present]; the Shield Nickel [1866-1883]; the Jefferson Nickel [1938 to present]; the Mercury Dime [1916-1945]; the Roosevelt Dime [1946 to present]; the Standing Liberty Quarter [1916-1930]; the Washington Quarter [1932-1998]; the Statehood Quarters [1999 to present]; the Walking Liberty Half Dollar [1916-1947]; the Franklin Half Dollar [1948-1963]; the Kennedy Half Dollar [1964 to present]; the Trade Dollar [1873-1883]; the Morgan Dollar [1878-1921]; the Peace Dollar [1921-1935]; the Eisenhower Dollar [1971-1978]; the Anthony Dollar [1979-1981 & 1999]; the Sacagawea Dollar [2000 to present]; Classic Commems [1892-1954]; Modern Commems [1982 to present]; Gold and Silver Bullion Coins [1986 to present]; and various U.S. gold coins that were minted prior to 1934. It may well appear on other coins. It also appears on our paper money.
The "IN GOD WE TRUST" motto has been on our coins for pushing 140 years.
For quite some time there has been discussion of the separation of church and state and the anti establishment clause in the U.S. Constitution. Some have opined that government should completely separate/divorce itself from religion. Some disagree and opine that our country, society and government have roots in religion and that a complete separation/divorce is neither possible or desireable.
To keep this thread coin related [at least a little bit] so that I do not get overly roasted in the OT flames that will be fired my way, I ask whether "IN GOD WE TRUST" should stay on or should be removed from our coins.
Please give your answer and then explain why your answer is correct.
Let the spirited discussion [and the flames] begin.
I will go first. The motto should stay on our coins unless society chooses to become godless and completely secular. The USA arose from colonies populated in part by persons who fled European homelands looking for freedom, including religious freedom. The founders of the USA wisely placed into the Constitution the provision which prohibits the federal government from establishing a state supported religion. The founders did not, however, seek to deny the fact that religion and/or God are part of the fabric of society and part of who we are as a people. Regardless of what religion you adhere to [Hindu, Islam, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Shinto, shamanism, druid, or as George Carlan once stated "a new religion that believes that when you die your soul goes to a garage in Buffalo"], there is a place for you in the USA. You should be free to practice your religion and the government should not deny the place of religion and/or god in our society.
0
Comments
This is incorrect. The connstitution doesn't anywhere say SEPARATION of church and state. All it says is that the STATE should not promote one religion over another.
Simply acknowledging the historical importance of God and religion in our history and our laws is just fine. Keep it on the coins.
My Auctions
(Note: The whining of hyper-sensitive PC weenie busy-body control freaks is not legitimate.)
Russ, NCNE
Our country was founder on the belief that we have the right to worship as we wish.
Your god may not be mine but we still have that right.
My Auctions
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>It should stay. Why? Because there is no legitimate reason to remove it.
(Note: The whining of hyper-sensitive PC weenie busy-body control freaks is not legitimate.)
Russ, NCNE >>
<< <i>Some of the biggest advocates to have it removed through history have been ultra-conservative christians who believe that it was blasphemy to have it on our money. >>
Name one, besides Teddy Roosevelt.
Russ, NCNE
That kindof says it all doesn't it?
My Auctions
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
Leave it alone.
When you can point to the constitution and tell me or show me where it say seperation of church and state, I might listen. You won't find it PERIOD! Our country was founded to allow free worship. The senate and house start with prayers, yet we have tossed God (our Christian God) out of schools.
Have a Merry Christmas!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Some of the biggest advocates to have it removed through history have been ultra-conservative christians who believe that it was blasphemy to have it on our money. The above statement is my opinion and has no basis in fact, reality, fantasy, or fiction.
That kindof says it all doesn't it? >>
Why are you being defensive and arguing that comment? It's not even my opinion (I say leave it on the currency), I was just stating fact.
I suppose you do have to take Roosevelt's mentality into mind though, as represented in a quote of his, “The true Christian is the true citizen, lofty of purpose, resolute in endeavor, ready for a hero’s deeds.”
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
This is no reason. A lot of things offend me in this country, I get offended by tele-evanglists telling me that 911 was the judgment of God on our lawless nation. That is bull. I believe it was reverend Billy Grahams Daughter who said this.
But, I let it go because they have just as much right to their opinion as I do and if you are a US citizen that right was and is hard fought at great cost.
I like the motto on our coinage. It is a reminder of a higher power, higher than money.
In time I believe coins will no longer be used or currency. I think God will always be used for good and bad.
Tbig
"THUS THE HEAVANS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM".
Now if we go and take away "In God We Trust" What do you think all them Hosts are going to do to us? They will see that we went the way of the devil and will have a good excuse to eat us all once they invade our world.
That is the motto we should have on coins and paper money.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
As a Christian, one might think I would prefer to have "In God We Trust" remain on our coinage. If it stays great, if not, that's ok too.
Jesus was asked if it was approprate for the Jew's of His time to pay taxes to Rome.
Taking a coin He asked: "Who's image is on this coin?" And, they responded: "Caesar's" And than Jesus said: "Than render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's" (paraphrased).
Money, in and of it's self, has nothing to do with God. So, it does not matter. Right or wrong that's how I personally feel. Besides, in my opinion our country stopped "Trusting in God" some time ago.
All this from a Canadian who finds truth and unique insights in Druidism, Christianity, Shamanism etc. etc.
Liberty: A national goal and sentiment
E Pluribus Unum: Historical
USofA: Self explanitory
In God we Trust: Fairly new, and rather lengthy!
The "it offends me" arguement is a stretch. I'm not religious, but I figure the minority have a responsibility in this world as well. Being "offended" is taken too lightly now-a-days!
Why, because it is our last resource to show the rest of the world how America feels about God, that we trust in him. That's a message in itself.
Other than the freedom of any religion of our choosing, that's about all that's left. Some of Americas own citizens have pushed the issue of taking prayer out of our schools. They have succeeded in using our own constitution against America in doing so. I don't believe that is what our founding fathers had in mind with the seperation of church and state.
God Bless America.....
******
'In God We Trust', if so then truly the constitution is wrong based on legal briefings of the past that states the separation of church and state. A suit has been recently brought against the city of Houston for displaying a bible of a man who was somewhat significant in this area- thank the ACLU. Whose rights are being violated? the majority say in this regards (coins/currency) that it should stay- WHO CARES??? Maybe we could re phrase it to say: In a higher power of the light of a being- we set our faith to.'
LEAVE THE MONEY ALONE
Onto more important subjects- can the Texans ever get a football team that can truly block?
Will the CUBS win the World Series in 05?
Can some give me a good price on a raw 80, 81, 90, 91 cc ms 64+ Morgan?
It should never have been put on in the first place, and should be removed.
<< <i>Why is it "In God We Trust"? I like dogs; why not, "In Dog We Trust"?..... >>
Just hold the coin in front of the mirror, and have it your way.
If I had to decide, I'd say make "In God We Trust" optional on future coin designs for no other reason than creating more space for some great coin designs. I also think that "E Pluribus Unum" and "Liberty" should be optional for the same reason.
I think that a statement that our nation trusts in God is noble (whether God is defined by Christians, Jews, Moslems, or anyone else who believes in a Creator with higher authority than governments). However, trust in God it is not obvious from the practices of those who exchange the most dollars or any of the three branches of the federal government. If 'the business of government is business" as Calvin Coolidge said, then government has no reason to legislate the inclusion of a reference to God on our coins and currency. I respect Teddy Roosevelt's opinions on this issue, as well as the sentiments of the country during the Civil War, which first brought this slogan to coinage.
As a coin collector, I like the simpler designs like the no stars Seated Liberty dimes and half dimes, or Draped Bust coinage, and find Statehood Quarters and many commemoratives cluttered.
As a citizen, I would rather deal and interact with those who trust in God than those who simply try to increase their personal wealth, but I realize that my opinion doesn't mean much, given the great expense of convincing our legislators to change the status quo.
I think it's unlikely that this will be a hot issue in my lifetime. As long as candidates for president, senate, and congress must appeal to voters who say they are not atheists, In GOD WE TRUSTwill remain and coin designers will just have to deal with it.
If the motto does vanish, and coin collectors start paying premiums for varieities dated one year either with or without IN GOD WE TRUST, I just hope that no churches, synagogues, or mosques get involved in the profiteering of the scarce variety, or someone might come back to chase the moneychangers out of the temple.
Clearly, many folks firmly believe in God, and it flows naturally to assert that acknowledging God is good and appropriate for a group and a nation. Certainly, the religious revival movements sweeping the nation around the Civil War era fostered such perspectives. Hence the inclusion of the motto during that era.
In point of fact, the motto has taken on a life of its own. Whereas in this day and age there definitely would have been less wide-spread sentiment to introduce it on our coinage, the motto has become part of the cultural fabric.
Removing the motto, then, is not simply a discussion about whether we trust in God or not, but whether the sentiments and convictions of a significant proportion of the populace is to be negated by the sentiments and convictions of another. Sort of like the argument about the Nativity scene in the town square that's been there for years, and that people like to take their kids down to see. It's not just about religion any more; it's about comfort zones, tradition, links with our grandparents, the fabric of social being, what we'ree "used to," and what we as a people and a group "have always done."
It's not worth arguing about, certainly not yet.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
Agreed
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
This is how the tobacco nazis got started. Just a little bit first, then the incrementallism starts.
There is no question that the Founding Fathers believed in the divinity and remember it was religeous persecution that sent the first colonists packing to the "new world". That would, of course, be us and the nation that is the leader of the free world. Frankly, we are the only hope for there to ever be a world-wide free world.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
It should be replaced with In Allah we Trust
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>It should be replaced with In Allah we Trust >>
Carefull now, you never know who might be scanning various boards these days.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
http://www.FreeMiniMacs.com/?r=14371642
The churches should teach people this idea, but instead, they ask for a lot of money. So the argument could be made that the Churches don't trust in God either.
Money is for commerce, and I don't mind if there are no spiritual ideas printed on it.
Roosevelt’s main concern was that the word GOD (on the money) might find it’s way into places like Casinos, Brothel’s, etc and therefore was dishonoring to GOD in that context.
However, Roosevelt (and the false preachers that surrounded him) failed to see that gamblers, prostitutes and others are EQUALLY children of GOD as are the so-called “better class” of sinner of which Roosevelt himself and his preachers were a part. GOD does not view the gambler/prostitute with any less regard than he does any other sinner – and ALL are sinners according to the Scripture (Psalm14: 1-3, Rom. 3: 10). The “ranking” and classification of people as sub-sects of “sinner” is a corruption created by mankind (Luke 6: 37). Only GOD has the power to make such judgments. If we, no matter how righteous we believe ourselves to be, commit one sin – we commit them ALL (James 2: 10). Roosevelt and his ilk were no better off than the “hussy in the brothel” (the same hussy so many elitists routinely visited as nearly every Stella $4 can testify).
In addition, it is exceedingly clear that GOD is not a respecter of persons - ANY persons! (Acts 10:34). Teddy Roosevelt and the sycophant preachers that surrounded him were oblivious to these Biblical truths. Indeed, perhaps the word GOD on money might serve as a reminder of conscience for the sinner who is about to steal, rob, or defraud. GOD the Creator and Upholder of everything, is everywhere – why not in money?
The word GOD on our National Coin & Currency – as well as on our buildings, architecture and art, is a humble gesture by we mere mortals to symbolize our respect, honor and FEAR of the Almighty who rules over us all like a Mighty Fortress. matteproof
<< <i>the 10% some people give to church should say "in god we trust" and it should be TAXED...the rest should say "we actually trust money" >>
This sort of mindset is just beyond me. Sorry, nothing personal, but income taxes in themselves are unconstitutional. Please, don't quote me laws and amendments that were never legally ratified.
It was never the intent of the Founding Fathers to tax a man's personal income. In their wisdom, they knew where that road would eventually lead and we are reaping the harvest of that 1913 mistake today.
No, the Federal Government should not have the power to tax Churches either. Along with that goes the power to control. That includes the power to destroy as well as promote and that is patently illegal under our Constitution.
The difference between our form of government and others is that we actually protect and ratified the sanctity of a citizen's most private and personal of beliefs. There are just some places that the Government has no business intruding into in a free society.
I suppose it is really a matter of whether the apathy of he people becomes so dominant that the majority of us aren't willing to fight to preserve our freedoms. Becoming fat, greedy, selfish and spoiled has brought us to a place that the Founding Fathers could have never imagined. I'm sure they would be sickened by what our government has evolved into.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
>>>My Collection
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."