In need of feedback on possible Bust Dollar purchase...

dthigpen · December 13, 2004 12:16AM

Link to Auction

I'm considering purchasing this coin for my type set, I dig the original looks of it and it fits my Type Set coin budget. However, I am *not* a Bust Dollar expert and would appreciate if anyone could find any problems/issues with this coin based on the pictures before I purchase it.

Thanks,

kieferscoins · December 13, 2004 12:18AM

I would buy one slabbed.

Cameron Kiefer

ziggy29 · December 13, 2004 12:24AM

It *looks* legit to me, but I'd not touch one of these raw. There are just too many fakes out there.

Stuart · December 13, 2004 12:31AM

Doug: I strongly agree with Cameron and Ziggy, and would not recommend that you purchase a raw Bust Dollar at all if you are not familiar with them, and especially not off of E-Bay.

I would strongly recommend that you purchase a certified Bust Dollar (PCGS, NGC or ANACS)...

FC57Coins · December 13, 2004 12:31AM

Agree with the above statements - stay away from raw.

coinguy1 · December 13, 2004 12:37AM

Douglas, there are enough "slabbed" examples to be had, such that, unless you feel extremely confident in your grading and assessment abilities, I'd recommend NOT buying an uncertified one. These are high priced coins which have often been cleaned and/or suffer from other problems.

A few other comments/suggestions:

Seller states "Return privilege is 10 days from date shipped" - that puts you at the mercy of the mail - if you are going to try to acquire it, I would first get something in writing from the seller allowing you to change the terms of the return privilege to something like "Coin must be shipped back by buyer within X number of days of receipt by him".

The centers look very light - I would guess that it was lightly cleaned at one time. That in itself, isn't necessarily a reason to pass, but I think it's worth noting.

I think the VF 35 grade might be a tad optimistic, though it looks ok as a VF.

This is one area of the market which has appreciated tremendously over the past few years, and I have noticed more coins of this type appearing for sale as a result. I think it's a good opportunity and idea to take your time, be choosy and make sure you're really getting what you want.

To my knowledge, I don't know the seller or anything about him - my comments are only for your protection.

No matter what, good luck to you.

dthigpen · December 13, 2004 12:40AM

Thanks for the feedback, that's why I asked here before I clicked the BIN

I'll shop around a bit more and see if I can find a slabbed example that fits my budget.

Cam40 · December 13, 2004 12:51AM

i sure could be wrong about the grade but, it looks over graded at 35.
25-30 maybe but, thats just my guesstimation.
other than that, it sure looks like a nice coin for the date and condition.

JadeRareCoin · December 13, 2004 12:52AM

I only have a minute, so I will make this quick:

In my opinion the coin you linked has been holed/plugged. It is a very well done plug job, too. The coin is B-23 (R.3). It is still a nice coin and indeed genuine. However, it is not worth $1,850 with the plug job. It's a coin that I would want to pay $900 max.

BTW, does anyone know where the plug is???

Dennis

RGL · December 13, 2004 12:56AM

Left obverse field?

kieferscoins · December 13, 2004 12:57AM

Right toward the middle in the dark star?

Cameron Kiefer

stman · December 13, 2004 1:01AM

<< I dig the original looks of it >>

IMO this is not an "Original" surfaced coin. Ditto what others have said.
Also, just because it looks toned does not mean it's original. These things have had plenty of time to re-tone after a cleaning....
As this one appears to be.

mrearlygold · December 13, 2004 1:02AM

Stay away from raw early coins unless you are absolutely confident in your grading skills in these series. You'll save yourselg a lot of grief by avoiding these types of coins on ebay as well.

Good luck
Tom

Cam40 · December 13, 2004 1:04AM

while looking for this `patch job` i noticed the denticles around the coin
look.....tooled.
see what i,m seeing?
maybe it could be a ANACS VF Details Tooled Net VG8-10?

numobri · December 13, 2004 1:43AM

I'll agree with JADE that It's an B23(BB105),that It's not VF35,however ,I see no plug but I'll keep looking.

You could do better.

Merc · December 13, 2004 2:39AM

It has been cleaned and retoned. That is not too surprising for the old dollars. Then I've seen cleaned ones in the top tier tpg holders that have been cleaned. There is no way circulate 200 year old silver is still white. I think his grade is a bit optimistic. I'd give it a strong F15 in details. I've got a F15 in an ICG holder that is a bit stronger than this coin.

JadeRareCoin · December 13, 2004 3:04AM

Holed and plugged at 12:00 obverse.

Regarding the grade, I always felt that coins like this should be graded by price and not a technical grade, as the actual grade is an opinion that varies greatly from collector to collector. I grade the coin $900. It is not a bad piece. Remember the survey as outlined in Reiver's book on early dollars? The question was "how many early dollars have been lightly cleaned at one time in their past?". Of the 14 specialists polled: 79% of raw dollars and 76% of certified dollars. It is the norm.

dthigpen · December 13, 2004 3:10AM

<< Holed and plugged at 12:00 obverse.

Regarding the grade, I always felt that coins like this should be graded by price and not a technical grade, as the actual grade is an opinion that varies greatly from collector to collector. I grade the coin $900. It is not a bad piece. Remember the survey as outlined in Reiver's book on early dollars? The question was "how many early dollars have been lightly cleaned at one time in their past?". Of the 14 specialists polled: 79% of raw dollars and 76% of certified dollars. It is the norm. >>

Thanks for that information. I'll have to pass this one up for my type set, but will bid an appropriate amount on it in hopes to aquire it to deplug and add to my holed coin collection.

Cheers,

coinguy1 · December 13, 2004 3:31AM

<< Holed and plugged at 12:00 obverse >>

Jade, please explain how/why you are so certain about that? I'm not seeing it. I'm not saying you're wrong, by any means, only that I can't see it, and would like to be able to. Thanks.

braddick · December 13, 2004 3:39AM

Doug, now that I know you're out, I'm in... at least to watch where this one goes.
Personally I like this one and think it would holder out at VF25 or so.

It'll also be interesting to see what it takes to tap the reserve as I haven't done so yet.

Stuart · December 13, 2004 3:41AM

Mark: I'm with you, and can't see the remnants of a plug job at 12:00 on the obverse where Dennis mentioned that he saw it.

Dennis please enlighten me as to what symptoms you are basing your diagnosis on...

Thanks!!

mgoodm3 · December 13, 2004 3:43AM

The only thing I can see is a subtle rounded mark to the right of the B when zoomed on the image.

ER · December 13, 2004 3:45AM

Maybe Douglas will buy it and put a hole right thru the 12 o 'clock plug that Dennis talks about.

Honestly, I can 't tell where that plug is, but yeah, VF25 max, no way a 35.

dthigpen · December 13, 2004 3:46AM

<< Doug, now that I know you're out, I'm in... at least to watch where this one goes.
Personally I like this one and think it would holder out at VF25 or so.

It'll also be interesting to see what it takes to tap the reserve as I haven't done so yet. >>

Okie Dokie, I'll quit bidding it up then

stman · December 13, 2004 3:52AM

<< Remember the survey as outlined in Reiver's book on early dollars? The question was "how many early dollars have been lightly cleaned at one time in their past?". Of the 14 specialists polled: 79% of raw dollars and 76% of certified dollars. It is the norm. >>

I have no argument that most have been cleaned at some point. BUT, if you're referring to my statement that this one isn't "original"...
If a collector states they feel it is indeed original, as was the case here, I feel opinions should be given on this. And they are only opinions!!!

ziggy29 · December 13, 2004 3:59AM

<< I have no argument that most have been cleaned at some point. BUT, if you're referring to my statement that this one isn't "original"...
If a collector states they feel it is indeed original, as was the case here, I feel opinions should be given on this. And they are only opinions!!! >>

When we're talking about things like Bust Dollars, it's probably best to not use the word "original" and instead use something like "more original-looking." Coins like this can still get slabbed by the majors when cleaned, provided it was a light ancient cleaning that has nicely retoned. Not original, yes, but perhaps good enough surfaces to be slabbable. For draped bust coinage, then, "more original looking" might be enough to get it slabbed.

JadeRareCoin · December 13, 2004 3:59AM

Jade, please explain how/why you are so certain about that? I'm not seeing it. I'm not saying you're wrong, by any means, only that I can't see it, and would like to be able to. Thanks.

Mark, it's just an opinion as it is difficult to make any solid conclusions regarding grade/authenticity from an image. I think that we can all agree on that. I stated that in my earlier post. Also, I only looked at the image when I made stated my opinion about the hole/plug. I just went back to take another look and realized that I know the seller. He is a very honest dealer and definitely one of the good guys.

I stated my opinion based on a very quick look at the coin. I knew that it was B-23 based on obverse and reverse diagnostics. Then I compared the coin in the auction to pics of other certified specimens and noticed that the hair detail at 12:00 was completely wrong. Specifically, the upper hair curl is missing. I assumed that the hole was filled and the hair detail was just left out to save time/money.

WRONG! I think that this is B-23, Die State B, which has weak hair detail. I didn't go as far as to look into die states for the variety. That's why I should not post unless I have time to really examine something in detail. My apologies. As I stated in my first post, I really like the coin's look. It's a nice example.

BTW, I talked with a professional coin restored a few months ago. He told me that their business has counted over 4000 Bust Dollars that were expertly repaired in their shop over the years. That's 4000 holed and plugged Bust Dollars. It was common for people to put these things on chains back in the day.

JadeRareCoin · December 13, 2004 4:02AM

stman, I agree that this coin is not original and has been lightly cleaned. I was stating that that does not bother me on Early Dollars. I have seen many certifed EDs that have been cleaned, yet still holdered.

dthigpen · December 13, 2004 4:04AM

On a different note, I'm growing more and more frusterated with coin repairmen driving up the price of holed bust dollars just so they can plug them and try to pass them off as having never been holed

stman · December 13, 2004 4:09AM

<< 

<< I have no argument that most have been cleaned at some point. BUT, if you're referring to my statement that this one isn't "original"...
If a collector states they feel it is indeed original, as was the case here, I feel opinions should be given on this. And they are only opinions!!! >>

When we're talking about things like Bust Dollars, it's probably best to not use the word "original" and instead use something like "more original-looking." Coins like this can still get slabbed by the majors when cleaned, provided it was a light ancient cleaning that has nicely retoned. Not original, yes, but perhaps good enough surfaces to be slabbable. For draped bust coinage, then, "more original looking" might be enough to get it slabbed.

>>

I have no problem with these statements either.

Although I was not talking about "What will slab."
It's a known fact the services will net grade these coins without saying so.

I'll still use the term "Original" though when I feel it does/or doesn't apply.

coinguy1 · December 13, 2004 4:13AM

Thanks Dennis, it takes a real man to admit he was seeing things that weren't there AND to explain how/why.

ER · December 13, 2004 4:17AM

<< .........BTW, I talked with a professional coin restored a few months ago. He told me that their business has counted over 4000 Bust Dollars that were expertly repaired in their shop over the years. That's 4000 holed and plugged Bust Dollars. It was common for people to put these things on chains back in the day. >>

I wouldn' t be surprised at all if my 1794 $s have passed thru his shop.

stman · December 13, 2004 4:20AM

Not just "Original" IMO.... but VERY "Original." They can be had. Now, no I didn't follow this coin since it's birth, to know for sure what has happened to it. I put that disclaimer in as I'm sure somebody will hit me with that.

dthigpen · December 13, 2004 5:03AM

Oh, Also, here's a great information page/gallery of holed Bust Dollars.

greghansen · December 13, 2004 7:59AM

Don't like that coin at all, especially if it was going to be for a Type piece. For $2K your going to be able to get a no problems slabbed VF Bust Dollar. 1798 & 1799 seem to be a couple of the dates that are more plentiful in the VF range. I wouldn't mess with that coin shown. Just doesn't look right IMO.

numobri · December 13, 2004 3:48PM

braddick;

Glad your only,watching.

Better coins are around,at that price.(IMO)

Brian

In need of feedback on possible Bust Dollar purchase...

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